| M964 |
So from your childhood then, what did you did you play, wh-wh- tell me a little about childhood games you might have played. |
| F965 |
Childhood games when I was in school
were seasonal, |
| M964 |
Mm |
| F965 |
more or less. |
| M964 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Is that a surprise? |
| M964 |
Mm |
| F965 |
//Really?// |
| F963 |
//Oh we had a//
we had a marbles season; we still had certain seasonal things
//in my day.// |
| F965 |
//Did you?// |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
Our games were non adult-led.
And I think we learned them from the older children.
We must have learned them from the older children in the playground. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And er there were, you know, the girls played certain things.
I'm not absolutely clear on what the boys did, but a lot of it involved football. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
We were so lucky with the space we had, oh! |
| M964 |
Mm |
| F965 |
You know, I realised, only working in schools, how fortunate we were,
because we had a bit tarmac playground,
and we had a a field, which I think we were allowed into;
//under some// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
circumstances we were allowed into the field,
which is now I think, I don't know whether, I don't know what's built round, houses probably,
but we had, you know, like
//a season.// |
| M964 |
//[sneeze]// |
| F965 |
If it was freezing,
[laugh] which it often was,
you know, you had slides |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
in the playground, if it was snowing you had, you know, obviously that was seasonal. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
But the rest of the year kind of evolved,
so that there was a time when everybody had skipping ropes. |
| F963 |
Right.
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//Girls, I'm talking about.// |
| F963 |
Yeah, we had a skipping one and a marbles one.
And for some reason there was a sort of s- trying to maintain a handstand longer than
//everybody else.// |
| F965 |
//Yes, against a wall.// |
| F963 |
Not against
//the wall, no, ours wasn't.// |
| F965 |
//Not against the wall, oh mm.// |
| F963 |
But it was called "yorkie" for some
//unknown reason.// |
| F965 |
//Oh I never heard of that.// |
| F963 |
And that's what people used to say when they did it; they used to say "yorkie!",
and when you did the sort of
//[inaudible] you were supposed to kick your legs up in the air,// |
| F965 |
//Now isn't that a//
//wonder?// |
| F963 |
//try and stay up longer.// |
| M964 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//Where the//
"yorkie"
//thing came// |
| F963 |
//I don't know.//
I really don't know
//where that came from.// |
| F965 |
//You came back//
from school with expressions that I had never heard. |
| F963 |
Mmhm
//Mmhm yeah.// |
| F965 |
//And that's a difference of like// |
| F963 |
Yeah.
//The one that, the one I remember that// |
| F965 |
//[laugh] f-f- fifty years.// |
| F963 |
w- used to puzzle me when I was a child was [?]ha-neck[/?]. |
| F965 |
I remember that.
//Cause, I never heard of it.// |
| F963 |
//But I remember Jane,//
well Jane was talking about that, in in Wishaw. |
| M964 |
Mmhm |
| F963 |
She was saying they used to say "red neck" to people,
like when you were
//embarrassed.// |
| F965 |
//When you're blushing.// |
| F963 |
When you were blushing.
And I think this kind of "ha neck" thing was like
//the extension of that somehow, you know?// |
| F965 |
//What was the "ha", the "ha" was sort of//
"aha,
//you have a red face".// |
| F963 |
//I suppose//
I suppose, but it was almost as if people
//learned it// |
| F965 |
//"Ha neck".// |
| F963 |
kind of from somewhere else and
//used it.// |
| F965 |
//Distorted it slightly.// |
| F963 |
Well, they didn't seem to have, you know, the actual kind of focal point;
//the embarrassment had been lost somehow.// |
| F965 |
//Aye.// |
| F963 |
It was like, you know, the joke's on you, kind of
//thing, but not, not explained.// |
| F965 |
//Right. You should, you should be blushing.//
//Eh, it's on you.// |
| F963 |
//Well, yeah, yeah.// |
| F965 |
We us- we called that a "big riddie". |
| F963 |
Uh-huh
//Yeah.// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
//Somebody's got a big riddie.//
When they've got a red
//face.// |
| F963 |
//Right.// |
| F965 |
"Rid" being "red". |
| F963 |
Mmhm, yeah. |
| F965 |
"Oh he's got a big riddie", you know, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
because he was coy or because he was embarrassed or
//whatever.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
But, to me a redneck is, you know, something American, to do
//with [laugh]// |
| F965 |
//But a redneck's to do with the//
//sun, isn't it?// |
| F963 |
//[laugh].//
Well I think of that as a sort of American
//term, but, but, you know, yeah.// |
| F965 |
//They're not embarrassed at all! [laugh]//
They're not embarrassed.
That's to do with the sun on a white guy's
//neck,// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
//But this was like// |
| F965 |
//isn't it?// |
| F963 |
pointing at somebody and saying
//"Red neck", like, "you're embarrassed", you know, "this is making fun of you".// |
| F965 |
//"Ha neck", yeah, yeah.//
Yeah, we would, we would do that in in adolescence, |
| F963 |
Mmhm yeah. |
| F965 |
you know, I don't think we
//did that early on.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah, that's that's when I mean,//
really.
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//It was//
often
//to do with// |
| F963 |
//Uh-huh// |
| F965 |
somebody fancying somebody,
//you know?// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm// |
| F965 |
Er, ha- "you got a big riddie when she came in",
//you know?// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm// |
| F965 |
Erm, but, as far as, you know, games were concerned,
Wheth- I ha- now that I look back on it probably one day somebody thought they would take their skipping rope to school, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
and then it became the skipping season. |
| F963 |
Yeah.
Cause, that marbles was a bit like that, you know, a couple of people would start off,
//and before you knew where you were the sort of// |
| F965 |
//Mmhm mmhm// |
| F963 |
the whole kind of grassy
//bit of the// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.// |
| F963 |
playground was taken up with
//people playing marbles.// |
| M964 |
//What was, what were the rules for it?// |
| F965 |
I wish I'd charted
//that.// |
| F963 |
//Erm//
you had to hit the other guy's marble three times, you said "Onesy, twosy, threesy, keepsy".
//And on "keepsy" you got it.// |
| F965 |
//Then you got to keep it.// |
| F963 |
It was yours.
//That was you winning it.// |
| F965 |
//But that's only one marbles game.//
//Mm mmhm// |
| F963 |
//That we-, that was, that tended to be how they played it.// |
| F965 |
And it was how many of the other guy's marbles you could get. |
| F963 |
Yeah, uh-huh. |
| F965 |
Bit like chips.
//Poker, yeah.// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
But, |
| F963 |
I see to remember gambling all of my
//marbles away. [laugh]// |
| M964 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//I wish I had.//
//You lost your marbles. I wish I had// |
| M964 |
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
kept a record as a child, [laugh].
Can you imagine a child sitting keeping a record?
I wish I'd kept a record of the seasonal
//shifts of games, because it// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm mmhm// |
| F965 |
actually might have just been as simple as somebody thought "I'll take my skipping rope
//today".// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
//mm// |
| M964 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//and then it became the thing.// |
| M964 |
//It's a [inaudible] weather.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
Apart from the weather. |
| F963 |
Mmhm
Right, yeah. |
| F965 |
Weather with an E.
Apart from the weather, where, you know, like I said, sliding you did when it was frozen. |
| F963 |
Yes, uh-huh. |
| F965 |
Erm, th- and conkers you did when it was
//conker time.// |
| F963 |
//Oh, we never had any conkers//
//around us// |
| F965 |
//Did you not?// |
| F963 |
[laugh] so we couldn't do that. |
| F965 |
But we went and got them from elsewhere. |
| F963 |
Ah
//We never did.// |
| F965 |
//We haven't got conkers here but we went and got them.// |
| F963 |
We never had conkers in school. |
| F965 |
Really? |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
Never never never? |
| F963 |
I think of it as a sort of, you know, English public school
//thing.// |
| F965 |
//Oh we//
always had
//conkers.// |
| F963 |
//Cause I I read about you know the//
Jennings books
//and things like that with their conkers, but, never, right. Uh-huh// |
| F965 |
//Oh no no no everybody in my school, we all had conkers.// |
| M964 |
Could you erm, could you tell me what the rules for that would be because once again they didn't have that
//[inaudible]// |
| F965 |
//Again there would be//
many variations like marbles,
but you put your, you tied a knot in a string and you threaded your conker, which would be a horse chestnut, |
| M964 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
on.
And there were cheaty people who baked them or something to make them very
//hard. Mmhm// |
| M964 |
//I did hear about that, yes.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
But, I seem to remember people with a with a string with a lot of conkers on it that they had won. |
| M964 |
//Ah// |
| F963 |
//Ah// |
| F965 |
How do you win them, because you break the other guy's conker?
Maybe they were just the reserve conkers.
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm// |
| F965 |
And you went [laugh], you took a hold of your conker and you went "Whack" |
| F963 |
[laugh] |
| F965 |
to the other guy's conker.
And if you broke his conker, you were the winner. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
But, what was the prize, I don't know. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
And sometimes you could have a brilliantly good conker that beat other folk. What was the prize?
Just the glory?
//Which children wouldn't understand.// |
| M964 |
//Glory.// |
| F965 |
Sorry, sorry. [laugh]
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
//And and when you, and and skipping rope.// |
| F965 |
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
I mean in the U.S. of course there are there are skipping rope songs. |
| F965 |
Mmhm
//Oh yeah, much more complicated// |
| M964 |
//[inaudible] here of course.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
and and sophisticated than ours ever were.
//Mm [inaudible].// |
| M964 |
//Right, I've no idea about that.// |
| F963 |
//Mm I could never//
cope with the two skipping ropes at once business.
//[inhale] Too tangly for// |
| M964 |
//"Double Dutch". [inaudible]// |
| F965 |
//I've never ever, no I've never seen that.//
//We didn't do that.// |
| F963 |
//me! [laugh]// |
| F965 |
We had
to be an ender,
was the person that was standing at the end,
//turning// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm//
//Right.// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
//right?//
And I wasn't very good at skipping.
And I liked being an ender. |
| F963 |
Right.
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//I I liked being in the game,// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
//Yes.// |
| F965 |
but not particularly
//skipping,// |
| F963 |
//Uh-huh// |
| F965 |
so I was quite happy when it was me.
If you made a mistake you e- you had to be an ender. |
| F963 |
Right, yeah. |
| F965 |
And I quite liked being an ender. |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
And you turned the rope, |
| F963 |
Yeah.
//It was all that// |
| F965 |
//you know.// |
| F963 |
running in while it was going. I
//just never coped with that very well.// |
| F965 |
//Running in when it was going, and and there were//
rhymes that you had to know. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
You know you knew the rhyme like mm "Polly in the kitchen doing some stitching,
in comes the bogeyman and out goes she". |
| F963 |
Right.
//Ah, I remember that as well.// |
| F965 |
//So when Polly's skipping,//
and then sh-. Did you have that? |
| F963 |
Had th- that sounds familiar.
//[inaudible]// |
| F965 |
//Polly ran out, in came the bogeyman,//
the bogeyman came in, that was the next skipper, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
and they both skipped and then out went Polly, |
| F963 |
Right.
//Yeah.// |
| M964 |
//Right.// |
| F965 |
//and the person//
who had been the bogeyman then became Polly
//in the kitchen,// |
| F963 |
//Uh-huh// |
| F965 |
doing some stitching.
//And then next// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm// |
| F965 |
person had to run in, and if you stopped the rope, you had to be an ender. |
| F963 |
Yeah.
//Mm// |
| F965 |
//[tut]//
And they had funny ones; they had, oh, I can't remember them now.
There were, there was, there were a variety of rhymes, and it had, it always led by the rhyme that you did.
You didn't j- didn't just go in and skip. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
//It was it//
was all songs and rhymes. |
| F963 |
Right. |
| F965 |
Things that kids have to be taught now
//by// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
specialist people that come in and teach them playground games. |
| F963 |
Well it's funny you should say that because, you know, again Jane was talking about her Wishaw childhood, |
| F965 |
Mmhm |
| F963 |
and er that they had played this game called er what she called the "pancake game", |
| F965 |
Oh you told me.
//I'd never heard of. Yeah, yeah.// |
| F963 |
//which had this really really sort of ritualised thing about, you know,//
who played the role of the
//pancakes and there was a witch and there was a spanking girl.// |
| F965 |
//Yeah, yeah.//
//Oh! [laugh]// |
| F963 |
//It all sounded very [laugh]// |
| F965 |
Dubious. [laugh]
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//Well, it was very//
it sounded like it must be something, you know, that was sort of older and maybe had a different
//connotation at a different time, or something, but// |
| F965 |
//Yeah, yeah, a fairy tale or something.// |
| F963 |
it's in, you know, the Opie's
//books on childhood games, and things.// |
| F965 |
//Mm did I did I, this is//
off the subject slightly, but did I tell you I was in the supermarket one day |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
and there was a very nice wee boy,
erm with his mum, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
and she was getting apples, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
and they were, they were these like er, what are those American ones that are so lovely?
Mackinto- Canadian, Mackintosh Red,
but I don't think they were Mackintosh Red but they were bright red, you know, beautiful red,
//apples.// |
| M964 |
//Red Delicious.//
//No?// |
| F965 |
//Mm, yeah, something like that.//
And she's putting them in the bag and and he said, "These are lovely apples", you know, "these look lovely, lovely red apples,
are they poisoned?" |
| F963 |
[laugh] |
| F965 |
And I said
//"Too many fairy tales". [laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//[laugh]//
Because they looked so good. |
| F963 |
Mm
Are you a witch? [laugh] |
| F965 |
But er I don't know what we were saying about the the games,
//skipping thing.// |
| F963 |
//Yes, uh-huh.//
Yeah. |
| F965 |
Erm, I'll try to remember.
//Did you ever play "Peever"?// |
| F963 |
//Well I never had any, I mean Jane//
Yes. |
| F965 |
Did you draw them on the on the playground? |
| F963 |
Yes. |
| F965 |
I was going to say "Peevers" because that's what we called it. |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
Peevers plural,
//for some reason.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah, uh-huh.// |
| F965 |
And sometimes they called them "beds",
//because you drew a bed. Did you do that?// |
| F963 |
//We would have called it, we would have called it "Peevers".// |
| M964 |
//So that would be Hopscotch for us, yeah.// |
| F965 |
//"Hopscotch" the Americans called it, yeah, yeah.// |
| F963 |
Yeah, we would have called it "Peevers". |
| F965 |
Plural? |
| M964 |
//And// |
| F963 |
//Uh-huh// |
| M964 |
the stone that was tossed, if you happened to know it, it was a rather obscure word, would have been called a peever. |
| F965 |
//That was a peever, did you call it a peever in America?// |
| F963 |
//Oh, and [inaudible] as well?//
//Really?// |
| M964 |
//The the, just the stone that was tossed, but once again,// |
| F965 |
//[tut]//
//Do you know? Mm mm.// |
| M964 |
//that that like the word that covers the end of your shoelaces is an aglet, it's not a very common word for it.// |
| F963 |
//Yes, yes.//
//Yeah.// |
| M964 |
//Most people would have just said "This is a stone".//
//[inaudible]// |
| F965 |
//But you've heard, you knew the word "peever".// |
| F963 |
//Oh okay [inaudible].//
//In the States?// |
| M964 |
//Yes.// |
| F965 |
//And that//
//is not, I'm sure that's not known in England.// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
Mm |
| F965 |
I think that must have come via Scotland. |
| F963 |
Mmhm
What about what about English, you know, when you were in English schools, did they play Hot- Hopscotch, would they have called it
//that?// |
| F965 |
//They had already//
//by the time I was teaching they had lost a lot of playground games.// |
| F963 |
//Mm. [tut] Oh that's a//
//shame.// |
| F965 |
//They//
really didn't know.
//In fact, one day I took a class// |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F965 |
to another school, and this other school I think had had somebody coming in
//and showing them playground games.// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
And they came home, back to our school, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
wanting to play these playground games. |
| F963 |
Right.
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//The-//
their culture had lost them. |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
And all they all they did was, well I have to say, our school was very very well provided,
they had built a wall for instance,
you know, there were no school walls to kick a ball against, |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
//Oh yeah.// |
| F965 |
you know, the the the windows used to be so high |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
that you could kick your ball against the school wall. |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
Now there are great big picture windows |
| F963 |
Right, uh-huh. |
| F965 |
and you couldn't kick a ball against them
//without getting into trouble.// |
| F963 |
//Mm yeah.// |
| F965 |
So the school where I worked in England had a, they built a wall out in the playground, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
and the kids could use it as a goal, |
| F963 |
Right.
//That's a good idea.// |
| F965 |
//or they could just play against it.//
That was another thing I was going to tell you about. Ball games, there was a season for them
//as well,// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
mmhm |
| F965 |
apart from football,
//which seemed// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
//Mm// |
| F965 |
//to go on all the time.//
But the |
| F963 |
Did both genders
//play football, or was it just the boys?// |
| F965 |
//No, no, no, no, no. Never in my day.// |
| F963 |
Cause we used to play all together, like
//the whole// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.// |
| F963 |
The whole sort of class would just get
//together and play.// |
| F965 |
//My kids//
//er// |
| M964 |
//Same for me.// |
| F965 |
the children I taught would have played football, or any ball
//game.// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm// |
| F965 |
But when I was a child, the girls didn't play football,
//just// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
did not play it. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And, we still played, you know, we brought our balls, little balls to school, you know, little rubber balls.
And you would play against the wall. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And it would be the school wall,
er or the the, you know, the wall at the field. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And you threw it at the wall and you had all these rhymes, |
| F963 |
Yeah, [tut]. |
| F965 |
erm that you said, and you did different things,
you know, you threw it at the wall and you turned around, and you threw it under your leg and you turned around, you don't,
//all these different things, and there were wee rhymes that you said.// |
| F963 |
//Mm, really?//
Mm |
| F965 |
But there was one where [laugh], you could buy a very expensive [laugh] ball on the end of a piece of elastic.
//Do you think they still get those?// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
I don't know. |
| F965 |
A ball on a piece of elastic.
And you stood a- against the wall, back against the wall and you went like that,
//batted it off the wall.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
//Mm// |
| F965 |
//Or you lifted, [laugh] lifted up your leg and hit it underneath your leg,//
//and there were various permutations you could do with this ball. [laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
But if you didn't have a ball on a piece of elastic, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F965 |
//you put a ball in a sock.// |
| F963 |
Ah
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//A long sock.//
And we were all playing against the wall with our long socks. |
| F963 |
[laugh]
//Under your leg.// |
| F965 |
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
And what were some of the rhymes, do you remember any of them? |
| F965 |
I remember against the wall, where you threw it against the wall, you said, [laugh] because it was just an ordinary throw, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
you said "plainy".
[laugh]
//Plain throw.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
"Plainy", caught it.
"Clappy" meant you threw it and
//clapped. [claps]// |
| F963 |
//And clapped//
your hands, yes.
//It's hardly difficult to do.// |
| F965 |
//"Rolly"//
you threw it against the wall and rolled your hands. |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
And "backy", and when it was "backy" you
//threw it up and clapped your hands// |
| F963 |
//Uh-huh// |
| F965 |
behind your back.
//Plainy, clappy, rolly and backy.// |
| M964 |
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//I've probably got that from you. [laugh]// |
| F965 |
Right. [cough] Excuse me.
"Right hand" you threw it with your right hand, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
and caught it with your right hand.
"Left hand", same again. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Right hand, le- oh, I can't remember.
Right hand, left hand, touch your heel. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Touch your toe. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Touch the ground and "birly-o"
//meant that you turned round before the ball came back.// |
| F963 |
//Ah, birled roond.//
//Yeah, uh-huh// |
| F965 |
//You burled round.//
What is the worl-, the word, "birl" or "burl"? |
| F963 |
"Birl".
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//You birled round and you caught the ball before it came back to you.// |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Plainy, clappy, rolly and backy, right hand, left hand, touch the ground, touch your toe,
[cough], touch your heel, touch your toe, touch the ground and birly-o. |
| F963 |
Oh |
| F965 |
[cough] |
| F963 |
Mm, we also had about umpteen variants of tig. |
| F965 |
Oh so did we. So do they have now.
//They have now. Yeah, they have now. Yeah.// |
| F963 |
//You know, like we had aeroplane tig, where when you were tigged//
you stood with your arms out
//to either side and if somebody was going to free you they had to run underneath your arm,// |
| F965 |
//Do you know? Yeah. Yeah.// |
| F963 |
and then you were free and you could go back into the game. |
| F965 |
That is probably the most [cough] the most erm, what's the word, [cough], [cough], sorry, [cough].
[cough]
[door closing]
That's probably the most enduring game that I've seen
//in my career, is tig.// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm//
Right. |
| F965 |
Because, I don't know whether they've been introduced by adults,
but children will find, wherever, you know, whatever their environment is, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
they will find a tig, that's a variation. |
| F963 |
Right. |
| F965 |
There was one school I was in where it was drain tig. |
| F963 |
[laugh] |
| F965 |
If you were standing on a drain
//they couldn't touch you.// |
| F963 |
//Did they have a lot of drains?//
[laugh] |
| F965 |
Yeah, yeah, I don't know, you know, y- you make your own rule, |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
for the the tig. |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
And the cowboy tig which may have been adult,
//you know, thing,// |
| F963 |
//Mm, mmhm.// |
| F965 |
wh- when you were tigged you had to get down like a horse, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
and you only got released if somebody came and sat on you and went "Yahoo!" or
//you know,// |
| M964 |
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//erm did a//
thing with her arm. |
| F963 |
A pretend lasso
//over your head.// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.//
//Yee-ha! You know,// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm// |
| F965 |
whatever, and then you could run loose again. |
| F963 |
Right. |
| F965 |
And aeroplane, our aeroplane tig I think you had to stand and they had to go through your legs
//to free you.// |
| F963 |
//Ah, I thought it was under your arm.//
//Yeah, maybe there's different ways of doing it, but yeah.// |
| F965 |
//But children//
even although |
| F963 |
Under your arm was easier,
//cause it was faster, [laugh], you get away.// |
| F965 |
//Yeah, yeah, yeah.//
But even although I, as a grumpy old woman I will say they can't make up their own games,
they will make up a game
//of tig.// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm//
//The one sort of, well I suppose// |
| F965 |
//[cough]// |
| F963 |
kind of tig variant in a way was played with a tennis ball,
when I was in school. [laugh] |
| F965 |
Was that "kingball"? |
| F963 |
It was called "chippy". |
| F965 |
Mmhm
//"Chip, crack, broken"?// |
| F963 |
//Erm, yes.//
//Yeah. And they would// |
| F965 |
//Yeah, we played that.//
//Yeah, yeah.// |
| F963 |
//they would do that when they were starting it, they would bounce the ball three times,//
you know, with with the "chip, crack,
//broken".// |
| F965 |
//Uh-huh//
//[cough]// |
| F963 |
//And then the person holding th-, well everybody else would scatter,//
//person holding the ball would then try and hit somebody else with it. [laugh]// |
| F965 |
//That's right!//
//Would you believe we actually had rules, sort of rules for that as well,// |
| F963 |
//And it could get quite violent sometimes. [laugh]//
Mm |
| F965 |
that it had to be sort of below the belt. |
| F963 |
Mm, yeah.
//A lot of our boys were quite// |
| F965 |
//But that may have been just,//
//oh they hit you anywhere, yeah.// |
| F963 |
//vicious with//
where they hit you. |
| F965 |
It may have been that I I I know I keep coming back to this, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
but I think the fact that people had been regimented |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
over a period of time, |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
you know?
Parents had been regimented, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
we still had National Service. |
| F963 |
That's true, yeah.
//It was quite different.// |
| F965 |
//And there was a degree//
of "this is how you do it". |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
You do not digress.
This is the way it's done. |
| F963 |
Right. |
| F965 |
And people objected if you digressed. |
| F963 |
Mm
//Mmhm// |
| F965 |
//And they would say "I'm sorry, but you did not do that correctly".//
//And there was a// |
| F963 |
//Right.// |
| F965 |
certain degree of of formality
//about some games,// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| F965 |
where, I can remember, er, there was a thing called Kingball, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
where, I think we played it with a football actually, I can't remember.
I can't remember whether it had to be a football. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
where, the whole "tig" thing was, do they call-, "tag".
//call it "tag" in America,// |
| M964 |
//We call it "tag" in the States.// |
| F965 |
erm if you hit the person, it was aimed, supposed to be aimed low. |
| F963 |
Mmhm. |
| F965 |
So you hit them on their legs, you didn't try and get them on the head. |
| F963 |
Right, yeah. |
| F965 |
But that was almost s- sort of self-imposed. |
| M964 |
//How did that, how did that work exactly?// |
| F963 |
//Mm mm//
//I mean wh- when// |
| F965 |
//Er, you were the "it"//
person. |
| M964 |
Right. |
| F965 |
What do they call [?]he-he[/?], what do they call it in America?
//It.// |
| M964 |
//It.// |
| F965 |
If you were "it", you had the ball, |
| M964 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
and everybody ran about, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
and you threw the ball at them.
It's like t-, instead of touching them, you threw the ball so it got there faster than you could get. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| M964 |
//Right.// |
| F965 |
//So you threw the ball at them and//
they then ei- [exhale] lots of different games.
If if if you hit them with the ball, they became "it". |
| F963 |
Yeah, mmhm. |
| F965 |
Er, if you missed them you were still "it", you had to get the ball back and do it again.
Erm, in "Chip, crack, broken", |
| F963 |
Mmhm
//Uh-huh// |
| M964 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//I seem to remember, if you hit-. How complicated was this? How did they keep a record?//
//If you hit them once they were chipped,// |
| F963 |
//Hard to remember it, yeah.//
Yes. |
| F965 |
if you hit them twice they were cracked,
//if you hit them three times they were broken.// |
| F963 |
//Ah, yeah, right.// |
| F965 |
How could you regulate that now? |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Because we would admit that we'd twice been hit. [laugh]
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//So would we!//
//And I know.// |
| F965 |
//Would they admit it now?// |
| F963 |
Yes.
//Th- there was no way of playing the game if people didn't obey the rules.// |
| F965 |
//There's no, no, [inaudible].//
//No that's true.// |
| F963 |
//And you- you're sort of//
saying, you know, everybody was regimented, like
//you know,// |
| F965 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
it was all chaos and disorder afterwards,
but in my day, you know, it was it was noticeably wrong when one of the boys deliberately picked on somebody that he didn't like, you know, and really chucked the ball at him.
//I mean that that// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.//
//So there was a degree of honour there too.// |
| F963 |
//while I'm saying that it took place.//
Well it took place, but it was definitely, you know,
//frowned on.// |
| F965 |
//Frowned on.// |
| F963 |
you know, there was an
//idea that this// |
| F965 |
//Yes.//
//But you know something?// |
| F963 |
//was abusing the rules, so.// |
| F965 |
I'm going to say this again, and this is going to make me sound ancient.
//But// |
| F963 |
//[gulp]// |
| F965 |
frowned on actually mattered. |
| F963 |
Mmhm mmhm |
| F965 |
Now,
a lot of the people that I know wouldn't care if they were frowned on.
[sniff]
//Because it would be// |
| F963 |
//Well our lot still would be.//
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//win, win, you know?//
Frowned on, who cares? |
| F963 |
Mm, see ours, our games were ev- never about winning.
Either because we didn't have, I mean we didn't have time, actually, we used to play in the
//breaks.// |
| F965 |
//Mmhm mmhm// |
| F963 |
And we never really
//finished things on time, so there wasn't a sense of, you know, victory over other people particularly.// |
| F965 |
//No no. Yeah. No. I kind//
//of heartened. I'm a little bit heartened that you were still playing games like that,// |
| F963 |
//It was it was getting involved in it was the point really.//
Uh-huh yeah. |
| F965 |
because er it seems that, you know, that in recent years, those have been lost.
//And children have to be// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
actually have to shown how to play a playground game. |
| F963 |
Is that universally true? |
| F965 |
I don't know, I really don't know.
//But erm// |
| F963 |
//Mm [sniff]// |
| F965 |
once they are shown it, they often adore it, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
and they want to do it all the time.
//But// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
often it does seem to depend on an adult presence,
you know, because somebody will cheat or somebody will do something that's not in the game,
//and it needs// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
seems to need a mediator to say "well, you have to agree on a, on rules before you start the game", you know.
//It seems to be everything is so// |
| F963 |
//But then that's that's true of//
that's true of people playing board games and other things, you know? |
| F965 |
No, that's different
//though, isn't it?// |
| F963 |
//In, later in life,//
//you still get people that want to cheat. [laugh]// |
| F965 |
//But children used, but children used to//
evolve their own games, you know, like I say about the drain thing,
//you know, I think that's still true,// |
| F963 |
//Yeah, mmhm.// |
| F965 |
that imaginative children will do that. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
But I, when I was out on pla- I didn't do playground duty for a long time, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
which I think is sad in a way, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
the Union doesn't like it, but I I like it because it lets you see wh- how they behave when they're unleashed. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
but it seemed to be
all the game they could think of was "I run after you and I catch you", |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
that's the only game they had in their head
//was// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
"I run after you and I catch you",
or "I catch you and then I hit you".
//Oh.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
//I think you were unlucky.// |
| F965 |
//They didn't have the imagination.//
//And I'm afrai-, I'm sorry to say, I think it's to do with being constantly entertained.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
Mm |
| F965 |
You know, I, I was, this sounds really really old,
but if if you don't have to make your own entertainment,
//that atrophies, you know, you you've, you// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
//I think we// |
| F965 |
//forget.// |
| F963 |
still did, I mean I think we still spent a lot of time inventing games and,
I mean people used to sort of invent their own wee songs and things,
//you know, in my day.// |
| F965 |
//Margaret, you're thirty.// |
| F963 |
Yes. |
| F965 |
I'm talking about now.
You know, I'm talking about children now. |
| F963 |
[laugh] |
| M964 |
And I mean, I remember, for example, when I was a kid, just, I'm talking about first grade which for us would have been I guess P2 maybe
//for you, P1, P2.// |
| F965 |
//Mmhm// |
| M964 |
And erm
//Primary One,// |
| F963 |
//Primary One, yeah.//
//Mmhm// |
| M964 |
//or Two, thank you.//
//Erm,// |
| F965 |
//No, we call them, we call them P1.// |
| F963 |
//I'm just making sure we're talking about the same thing.//
//I know you do, I'm just making sure that Josh is talking about the same thing.// |
| M964 |
//Mm, yeah, and, we are, yeah, wisely.//
//A- and,// |
| F963 |
//When you're about five.// |
| M964 |
er, yeah, I was actually just past that, I wou- er, make make it about six or seven,
//and and one of the// |
| F963 |
//Okay.// |
| M964 |
things that happened was that some people would be playing football,
mm soccer, football.
Erm, and other people would be doing their own things,
and invariably there would be a group of boys who would chase a group of girls. |
| F965 |
Oh yeah, boys chase the girls,
//that's what it's called.// |
| M964 |
//Right.//
Yeah.
//Eh, eh, which is a very clever name, by the way. And// |
| F965 |
//[laugh] Yeah. [laugh]// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| M964 |
and it also happened to that, was that there were two parts of it.
You'd chase them.
They squealed.
//Eventually you caught them, and like the dog that has caught the car,// |
| F965 |
//[laugh]//
End of story.
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
//End of story.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//[laugh]//
What do you do? Yes.
//There was no score kept,// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm//
//mm// |
| M964 |
//No, no.// |
| F965 |
//or anything like that.//
But it was the playing of it that was the fun.
//I don't think our kids have, had that, [inaudible].// |
| F963 |
//We had a thing called, we had a thing called "British Bulldog".// |
| F965 |
Ah yeah.
//Is that running across past people?// |
| F963 |
//[inaudible]//
[sigh] I'm getting it mixed up with something else actually, I think.
What was what was the "Red Rover" thing as well?
//You used to say// |
| F965 |
//Was that a running across past people?// |
| F963 |
you used to say "Red Rover, Red Rover, let
//so and so come over".// |
| F965 |
//Somebody over.//
//Yeah.// |
| F963 |
//And then//
you would, they would they would run at a line of people who are all holding
//hands,// |
| F965 |
//Yes.// |
| F963 |
and try and break through. |
| F965 |
Yeah. |
| F963 |
And if you didn't manage to break through then you became part of that line,
//part of that team.// |
| F965 |
//Right, right, right.//
//Great game.// |
| F963 |
//And there were sort of//
two lines on either
//side of the field.// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.// |
| F963 |
And so you sort of tried
//to kind of break your way through the the joined arms.// |
| F965 |
//I'm I'm very impressed that,//
//I'm impressed they were doing that when you were at school.// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
Oh yeah, we did a lot of those games when I was in school. |
| F965 |
Because it seems to be almost l-, it's becoming a lost art.
//We were// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
horrified at how few games the children initiated. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Unless, I know when when a teacher, or somebody interested
went out in the playground, you know, you could get them playing things. |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm |
| F965 |
But they wouldn't initiate it. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
And er it seemed to be a a something to do with overload of of easy access to games, you know, or,
what am I going to do?
But you know, they'd put out a bench in the summer time for the kids to sit and play cards or to play something |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
because otherwise they wouldn't be able to think of anything to do, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
in the playground.
And actually during that period, you know when Laurie was talking about the [tut] erm the time when that amazingly liberal regime was going on, which I have no recollection of,
but what I was working with, in England, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
where you ha- oh, don't make them do this and don't make them
//do that.// |
| F963 |
//They weren't allowed to teach spelling and things//
//like that, it was all very sort of// |
| F965 |
//Exactly.//
//Uh-huh, well,// |
| F963 |
//learn by osmosis, kind of thing.// |
| F965 |
I I was in a position where my my school was so small, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
that we could actually give the children the option of staying in at playtime if they wanted. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Instead of going out
//they could go to the music area,// |
| F963 |
//Yeah, mm.// |
| F965 |
and they could play with the instruments. |
| F963 |
Oh right. |
| F965 |
Fabulous, and at the time I thought, this is great! |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Because, you know, sometimes you just don't want to go out and run around with people. |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
However, we then discovered that the same children were always staying in and not getting any exercise.
But that was part of that extremely liberal movement, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
to say "Oh hey, you want to sit in a corner and read a book, you can do that",
but we could only do that because it was such a small school, |
| F963 |
Mmhm
//yeah.// |
| F965 |
//because//
you couldn't be aware of where everybody
//was,// |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
for fire regulations, all that stuff. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And the idea of children going out and letting off steam was passé,
//you know?// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
Let them do what they want to do,
//during break time.// |
| F963 |
//Well, in my school they just went out and bullied each other.//
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//Well exactly, and I thought this is ideal.//
//This is ideal// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
for the isolate, this is ideal for the child that really doesn't want to play competitively,
that just would love to sit and read a book. |
| M964 |
//My brother// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| M964 |
received that as a punishment; he was very glad
//[inaudible]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
[laugh] |
| F965 |
Being kept in at playtime.
//Mm// |
| M964 |
//Kept in at playtime because he refused to sit and pledge the allegiance. And// |
| F965 |
Do you know they still do that? |
| M964 |
Pledge allegiance, yes.
//Erm, yes.// |
| F965 |
//[laugh] No, they still keep children in.//
//[inaudible]// |
| M964 |
//But they kept him in, and so instead// |
| F963 |
//Because it is a punishment, yeah.// |
| M964 |
instead of going out and being bullied h- he got to sit down and read a book. |
| F965 |
Hm
//which suited him [?]real[/?] down to the ground, yeah.// |
| M964 |
//Down, absolutely.// |
| F963 |
//[inaudible] [laugh]// |
| F965 |
Why did he not want to recite the pledge of allegiance? |
| M964 |
Erm, that's long and complicated. |
| F965 |
//He's a, he was a rebel, a, really rebel.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
Our entire family was |
| F965 |
//Really? That's amazing.// |
| F963 |
//None of you wanted to subscribe to anything as formulaic as that though. [laugh]//
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//That is amazing.//
That's another story. |
| M964 |
That's another story.
//You you stand up and you try not to disrupt it.// |
| F965 |
//Well I, can I hear it later? [laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
I'd like to hear that story.
But, erm, we thought this was wonderful, so civilised, and I still think it's civilised.
You do wh-, you-, it's your break.
Do what you want. |
| F963 |
Mm, oh yeah, no that
//[inaudible] yeah.// |
| F965 |
//And we had enough people,//
it was a small enough group of children
that you could have evacuated the school; it was easy. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Er, you can only do that under those circumstances. |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
And then i- it got, you know, it kind of got to the point where I said "Oh, this kid really needs to go out and run about". |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
He really needs some exercise.
We're going to have to impose that. |
| F963 |
Uh |
| F965 |
So we had to start keeping a record of who stayed in and who didn't.
//[tut] Yeah, ridiculous, yes.// |
| F963 |
//Oh dear, nuisance, yeah.//
The whole idea that PE is supposed to give you exercise though, I'm afraid I disagree with that very strongly. [laugh]
//Because// |
| F965 |
//Well, you// |
| F963 |
the amount of exercise that we ever got was in no way going to help your general health
//and fitness.// |
| F965 |
//It's not like//
//that now.// |
| F963 |
//And what they would//
do is that, you know, the best you would get is being forced to run about in the cold, you know, first thing in the morning,
usually in the rain,
//which,// |
| F965 |
//Outside?// |
| F963 |
yes, playing hockey,
//things like that// |
| F965 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
which is, you know, this is not good for your health,
//I'm sorry, this is just not how it's supposed// |
| F965 |
//No,//
//that's that has moved on, that has moved on.// |
| F963 |
//to be. [laugh]//
//That was in secondary school.// |
| F965 |
//[inaudible]//
//I was, no, but that's not, that, you know, that was a wee while ago.// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
Mmhm |
| F965 |
The- they're very, well from what I've observed. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Er
//yeah, they're just// |
| F963 |
//It was a lazily taught subject though, they just//
//threw you out in the rain, "Get out of our// |
| F965 |
//very inclusive, they're very inclusive now.// |
| F963 |
hair for a while". |
| F965 |
And they, you know, they try to make it as attract- the kids do dance aerobics and all sorts of things, indoors, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
it's very very
//inclusive now.// |
| F963 |
//We got circuit//
training as well which usually made you feel sick if you were doing it first thing in the morning, "Do ten press-ups", "No thanks".
//[laugh] Yes.// |
| F965 |
//Was that secondary?// |
| F963 |
But th- it was badly, it was badly taught
//it was badly done, I think.// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.//
//I think they feel their, they do f-// |
| F963 |
//Put me off it altogether.// |
| F965 |
the unfortunate thing is they feel their way, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
but that might be they feel their way with a
//generation// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm//
//the best the best story I heard about that// |
| F965 |
//[laugh] and put you off// |
| F963 |
was er somebody who had the option in his school of doing er various, you know, "sport and games" was quite a broad
//general subject and it// |
| F965 |
//Mm mm.// |
| F963 |
included things like playing chess.
//And so [laugh]// |
| F965 |
//Oh please!//
//That's not PE.// |
| F963 |
//he would go for the board games options,//
//and get away from it.// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.// |
| F963 |
I know, but neither is neither is hitting, getting hit in the shins in the rain for twenty minutes.
//That's not exercise either.// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.//
//I don't know what it's like in secondary now,// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
but I am filled with admiration. |
| M964 |
[cough] |
| F965 |
We had people coming from, are you alright?
We had people coming from erm, I guess Social Ser- I don't know where they come from, Social Services or whatever, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
to do stuff with the kids,
erm during school time and after school, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
where they did aerobics and they did games and all
//that stuff.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah, if they taught//
//martial arts or something interesting, I would have enjoyed it a lot better.// |
| F965 |
//Enjoyable things.//
Well I don't think they do martial arts in school time but they do they do do games. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Fun things! |
| F963 |
Yeah |
| F965 |
You know with the big
//ball, you know, an enormously big ball.// |
| F963 |
//Oh and the worst, the worst//
of all which I know was a plague for a lot of people of my generation was the line-up.
//"You, you two, pick teams for this game".// |
| F965 |
//Oh getting chosen, oh no, oh no.//
//Oh that's horrendous.// |
| F963 |
//And it was always, you know, [laugh]//
//It was always// |
| F965 |
//That's cruelty.// |
| F963 |
very obvious which people
//were going to be the last to be chosen.// |
| F965 |
//I know.//
//But you know, they have.// |
| F963 |
//I have to say I was often one of them. [laugh]//
//Ritual humiliation.// |
| F965 |
//Now,//
//yeah, that's ludicrous because there are so many ways now of separating,// |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F963 |
//[inhale] Oh dear.//
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//you know, they number them.//
//Say "one, two, three, four",// |
| F963 |
//Och, we don't want you.//
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//All the ones go over there, all the twos,//
and they're fabulous, I've sat in on their lessons,
//because I had to.// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm// |
| F965 |
And I'm filled, these are not even teachers sometimes,
//you know, they're not// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
//Mmhm// |
| F965 |
//trained as teachers.//
And I am absolutely filled with admiration, |
| F963 |
Mm
//Mmhm yeah.// |
| F965 |
//for the enthusiasm, and the way they get them; they're sports people.// |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
And they get these
//kids,// |
| F963 |
//Uh-huh// |
| F965 |
and it's all to do, often, with taking part. |
| F963 |
Oh yeah, but when we did it in primary, I mean I liked PE in
//primary because// |
| F965 |
//Mmhm// |
| F963 |
we had sort of dance things and we played
//rounders and// |
| F965 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
you know we played quite a lot of energetic
//games and// |
| F965 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
erm it was quite good fun, okay there was still the line-up, you know,
//ritual torture.// |
| F965 |
//The choosing of the ch-//
//But there's easy// |
| F963 |
//But// |
| F965 |
ways to do that; they should have figured it out. |
| F963 |
Well, th- they weren't geared to that,
//you know.// |
| F965 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
They weren't they weren't interested,
//in making people feel good, you know. [laugh]// |
| F965 |
//And they didn't care if you weren't the last one to be picked, waaa.// |
| F963 |
[inhale]
No, I mean, th- there was a lot of bullying in that school but it was mainly psychological,
you know, it was mainly, you know, sort of mistreating people or ignoring them or sidelining them.
There wasn't so much of the thumping
//going on.// |
| F965 |
//Oh no.// |
| F963 |
But it, there was an awful lot of sort of silly hierarchical stuff that we
//could have done without.// |
| F965 |
//Mm// |
| M964 |
//Did you have Musical Chairs?// |
| F963 |
//So,//
//As a party game?// |
| F965 |
//To play?//
//Only as a party.// |
| M964 |
//As a party game.// |
| F963 |
//As a party game. Only as a birthday sort of//
//thing.// |
| M964 |
//Right.// |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| M964 |
//I was just curious,// |
| F965 |
//Why, why do you ask?// |
| M964 |
because I think it's a very cruel game.
//[inaudible]// |
| F965 |
//Because// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
//There's no chair left for you. [laugh]// |
| F965 |
//you don't like naughtyism either.//
//Somebody has to be excluded each time.// |
| F963 |
//Oh dear, yeah.//
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//I don't like par-, we used to avoid party games// |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
where somebody, where people ended up being excluded, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
because, for a start it's not very nice, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
and then you've got all these people that have been
//excluded [inaudible]// |
| F963 |
//Sort of sitting with nothing to//
//do, right. [inhale]// |
| F965 |
//And becoming nuisances.// |
| F963 |
Yes, mm. |
| F965 |
In the olden days, in my day, they would just have sat quietly. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
But now they don't sit quietly. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Now they find something else to do.
And we would for that reason
//would avoid// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
any game that was exclusive. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| M964 |
Mm |
| F965 |
The best games were the ones that kept everybody going all the time. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And I actually explained that to children once. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Erm, we had a rounders game that I got out of a book.
You know how in rounders y- you're out? |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Like cricket. |
| F963 |
Right. |
| F965 |
Well, this game was great because nobody was ever out. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
What you did was, it was a, you know, like a box of balls. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And i- it was fun if you had different sizes of balls,
//y-// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
a a limited number, you know, it might be four or five or whatever.
And the kid, instead of having to hit the ball, didn't even have, have to have that hand and eye coordination, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
er no naughtyism here,
//the box was there with the balls in it and they chucked them as far as they could chuck them,// |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
and then they ran.
And if they didn't get right round, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
they didn't score,
but they still got right round, you know, eventually.
//They didn't ha- they weren't out.// |
| F963 |
//Oh okay.//
Mm |
| F965 |
The the clue was the balls had to be all back in the box, er, for the other team, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
to stop them.
They all had to get them back. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
But the person who was running was never out,
you know, they just didn't get a point. |
| M964 |
//Yeah.// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
And then the next guy, ururururur and chuck the balls out.
And, although it sounds a little PC, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
the fact was everybody was always playing, |
| F963 |
Mmhm yeah. |
| F965 |
and you didn't have these people being put out, hanging about, disenfranchised by the fence. |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
It's a bit like rather a metaphor for real life,
//isn't it?// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
You know, you didn't do so well, you didn't get a point, but you're still in the game. |
| F963 |
Yeah, mmhm |
| F965 |
And there's nothing worse for a child than, a civilised, pleasant, normal child, standing out feeling
//excluded.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Or an absolute little toe-rag
//being excluded and saying// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
"I don't care if I'm excluded", and hitting things and
//knocking things down and "I'm going to make excluded the best thing that can possibly be",// |
| F963 |
//Mm, yeah, uh-huh.//
//Yeah.// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
which is what they do. |
| F963 |
I was trying to think of what they did, you know, by way of punishment when I was in school, because the belt went out,
they stopped using it in our school in the sort of early eighties. |
| F965 |
Surely before you were |
| F963 |
No, there was one boy in my year who actually got it in Primary
//One.// |
| F965 |
//Oh was that that big fat boy?//
//Sorry to say that.// |
| F963 |
//Er, no, no, he was not a big fat boy.//
But there was actually somebody who did get it. |
| F965 |
Whisper his
//name.// |
| F963 |
//I cannot//
//imagine. [laugh]// |
| M964 |
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
No! I cannot imagine what he did when he was five.
//The idea of, you know,// |
| F965 |
//To get a belt, I know.//
//I know.// |
| F963 |
//being hit with a belt when you're five//
is somewhat primitive, but there we go.
And er
//my school// |
| F965 |
//And awful.// |
| F963 |
stopped using it about nineteen eighty, eighty
//one.// |
| F965 |
//Well that was the//
there was a blanket
//rule, mm.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah, well//
not, no there wasn't actually,
//we looked into this, it's sort of// |
| F965 |
//Wasn't there?// |
| M964 |
Er e- except in
//private schools where it went on to ninety-nine.// |
| F963 |
//eighty-six or something and then it went on//
later in private schools.
//So it's it's later in the eighties.// |
| F965 |
//Oh private schools, schmivate schools. [laugh]//
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//But at the state schools it was//
kind of mid-eighties I think where they actually.
//But it got phased out, you know?// |
| M964 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//Well there was a legislation, mmhm.// |
| F963 |
It did get phased out.
But the legislation wasn't until a bit later. |
| F965 |
Is that right? |
| F963 |
Yes. |
| F965 |
Gosh, I didn't know that. |
| F963 |
But erm [tut] they used to make people, when when a child was being disruptive in primary school they used to tell it to go and stand in the corner and face the wall. |
| F965 |
Not in your day? |
| F963 |
Yes. |
| F965 |
Oh no! |
| F963 |
Yes. Is true.
//And I was just wondering if// |
| F965 |
//Gosh!// |
| F963 |
you know, I mean I suppose in your day they were much stricter anyway, you know that they could
//actually, they could actually whack you when you were in school, so that was rather different.// |
| F965 |
//Oh when I was at school, oh.//
[exhale] |
| F963 |
But |
| F965 |
Do you know? Do you know? |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
When I taught, as the teacher,
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
in Glasgow, and as I've said, in places where people were quite poor, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
children didn't need to be put in the corner. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Do you know what I mean? |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
You know, i-i-, the worst thing a child could do, I can't I can't even remember,
I can't even remember a discipline problem.
And I'm talking about an area of Glasgow that was an overspill. |
| F963 |
This is going back in time as well. |
| F965 |
This is nineteen sixty
mm, six. |
| F963 |
Mm because I mean, the more recent places where you've worked you've seen quite bad discipline
//problems, so.// |
| F965 |
//I've seen horrendous behaviour, yeah, horrendous [inaudible],//
//in in primary school.// |
| F963 |
//Something seems to have changed,//
//perhaps.// |
| F965 |
//Absolutely.// |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
But I I think I said to Josh earlier that that you never felt thr-, you know, you didn't feel threatened, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
going out to some of the most deprived areas of Glasgow. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And the children's behaviour, and you would have a class of forty-five,
//you know,// |
| F963 |
//[inhale] Good grief!// |
| F965 |
which necessitated a particular type of teaching,
//so there's no way that you could say "Okay,// |
| F963 |
//[?]My word[/?]. Yeah.// |
| F965 |
all the people, all the red
//group do so-and-so".// |
| F963 |
//That's a huge number of kids.// |
| F965 |
And, you know, just squeezed into the classroom. |
| F963 |
yeech |
| F965 |
But that was how it was
//then.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
And everybody did the same thing more or less at the same time, and we had come out of college being told "Put them in groups, and and
//ability groups and so on".// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
mm |
| F965 |
But it really didn't work very well
//with a class that size.// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
Yeah. |
| F965 |
But, the children were respectful because there was more
//respect// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
for authority.
I don't know what they thought was going to happen to them because the the punishment was probably just being hit. |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm |
| F965 |
But maybe that was bad
//enough.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
But I can remember kids just being told to go and stand in the corner. |
| F965 |
I don't even remember ever telling a child to go and stand in the corner. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
I did use the belt though. |
| F963 |
But like I say, I mean the the, you know, the school I went to, they didn't really have major sort of physical
//discipline problems.// |
| F965 |
//Oh,//
//but it's all relative, mm.// |
| F963 |
//And so they were all a bit wet when it came to dealing with with anything disruptive,//
//they kind of, they didn't really know what to do with it and so they usually, they usually// |
| F965 |
//Mmhm, they wouldn't expect it, mmhm.// |
| F963 |
reacted in kind of a, you know,
//you know, an unthoughtful way.// |
| F965 |
//But the thing is, that children,//
this might start going in a bit old old, er er grumpy old person
//direction, but// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm// |
| F965 |
children had, there were expectations of children's behaviour |
| F963 |
Right, uh-huh. |
| F965 |
that don't exist now, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
erm, even when you were at school, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
that you didn't answer back to the teacher,
you probably didn't answer back to your parents,
//you know, if they said// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
"Go and do so and so" you didn't say "Why?"
//You didn't say "No".// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
[laugh] |
| F965 |
It was just understood that that the person in authority |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
told you what to do and so you did it. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Er, now that doesn't exist and that has a good side and a bad side,
you know, obviously challenging authority has a very good side to it,
otherwise we'd all be doing what we're told
//always.// |
| F963 |
//Working in factory [laugh]//
//still, with no rights.// |
| F965 |
//Well who knows what we'd be doing?//
Er and that's why this country is how it is,
//because people challenge it, but// |
| F963 |
//Mm yeah, uh-huh.// |
| F965 |
erm
there's a, there comes a point I think where the power has shifted so much |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
that it, you spend all your time
//trying to// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
trying to get people to shut up and sit down and do what they're supposed to be doing now. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
A- and really what is your point?
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
But those little children that I taught in Glasgow
//were// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
seriously deprived in many ways, |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
but they still had that compliance and
//and er "Yes, you you know what you're// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm mmhm// |
| F965 |
talking about and I'll do what you say". |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
And there wasn't an illiterate one sent out to the primary I have to say. [laugh]
//They could all read by the time they left the primary school.// |
| F963 |
//mmhm mm yeah.// |
| F965 |
But erm, God knows what they were going to. |
| F963 |
Mm
//mm// |
| F965 |
//You know, they're probably going to some//
if, they were going in to work though, |
| F963 |
Yeah.
//mm mmhm// |
| F965 |
//they were going in to work at that time.//
Poor wee souls.
Did I tell you about the the minister when I was working in Maybole? |
| F963 |
Hm, I don't remember. |
| F965 |
Well, I was in this school on supply, |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
and we went in to this assembly, and it was a special assembly, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
because the local minister was leaving; he was going to America,
//somewhere like// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm// |
| F965 |
Kentucky or
//I can't remember.// |
| F963 |
//Right.// |
| F965 |
But he was going there, and he was a young guy, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
to me, in some ways.
//except he had a grey beard. [laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
He had a grey beard and a grey, grey hair, |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
and he played the guitar. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
And he was er one of these nice, you know, child-friendly ministers, |
| F963 |
Yeah.
//Not all sort of fire and brimstone.// |
| F965 |
//and the ki-. Not at all.//
And they're all sitting there in their school uniforms, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
and, lovely children, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
and he stopped to talk to, and we were all sitting up the side, the teachers up the side,
and he started to talk to them and he said "you know, looking at you", he s-, they all knew he was leaving, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
and he said "looking at you, it just reminds you of when I was at school, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
because the colour", I think it was red, "the colour that you're wearing is just like the uniform that I wore
//when I went to school,// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
at Chirnsyde Primary School. |
| F963 |
Oh |
| F965 |
And I thought, oh, th- that was my first appoi- I couldn't believe it; I hadn't heard it for years. |
| F963 |
Right. |
| F965 |
That was my first appointment in Glasgow. |
| F963 |
You might have taught him.
//[laugh] Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//Well, I thought, what age is he?//
And he couldn't have been outside of that age-group. |
| F963 |
Mmhm mmhm |
| F965 |
And, I'm sitting all the time trying to remember |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
my, I was only there for a year, |
| F963 |
Right. |
| F965 |
and I had a class of forty-five.
//And I could// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
only remember the bad ones.
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//[laugh] Couldn't remember the nicest kids.//
Could only remember the real trouble kids. |
| F963 |
[laugh] |
| F965 |
And I thought, oh, who is he? |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Could I possibly have taught him at
//Chirnsyde?// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
And as he was going out, he went out past us, and I said, I thought maybe he would remember, my my my this, you know, on an off-chance,
Wilma's name was very unusual. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
And I said "Do you remember Miss [CENSORED: surname], |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
at school? |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
"Oh yes, she was in the next room to me". |
| F963 |
Oh for goodness sake!
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//And I said "What was your teacher's name?" and he said "Miss [CENSORED: surname]"// |
| F963 |
[laugh]
//So it was you after all?// |
| F965 |
//And I said//
//"That was me!"// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
//Have I changed? [laugh]// |
| F965 |
//And he couldn't, well he//
he really obviously wouldn't recognise me but
//you know how you// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
remember your childhood
//teachers very clearly?// |
| F963 |
//Oh very strongly actually, yeah.// |
| F965 |
So he remembered me as "Miss [CENSORED: surname]",
//he didn't remember who I was obviously with my face.// |
| F963 |
//Mm mm// |
| F965 |
So, it was it was weird,
and we went into the staffroom, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
and a very nice woman said "Oh were you two at school toge-?"
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
//That's nice. [laugh] mm.// |
| F965 |
//And I said "In a manner of speaking", but I was only twenty.// |
| F963 |
Right.
//Yeah. Mmhm.// |
| F965 |
//I was only newly qualified; I was only twenty//
//when he would be about// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
Mmhm |
| F965 |
nine or ten. |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
So the age difference was not that
//huge. But at the same time I had been his teacher.// |
| F963 |
//Well no, that's true. Yeah. Uh-huh.// |
| F965 |
And he was off to,
and he told me he had come the hard way,
//you know, he had// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
he had gone, I think he had maybe had an alcohol problem, I don't
//know. And then// |
| F963 |
//Oh right, uh-huh.// |
| F965 |
come into into the church
//that route. He certainly hadn't come// |
| F963 |
//Mm, right.// |
| F965 |
straight from the
//school into it because,// |
| F963 |
//Yeah, yeah.// |
| F965 |
and I couldn't, I still can't remember his name; [laugh] I don't know what it was.
//I didn't know his name. It was an ordinary sort of name, and he// |
| F963 |
//Mm, mmhm, yeah.// |
| F965 |
obviously wasn't a bad boy. |
| F963 |
Yeah.
It's it is funny though, because you you as a kid spend such a long time looking at these people and listening to these people and
//you know?// |
| F965 |
//And it was a long//
long time for a child. |
| F963 |
Yeah, yeah.
So that you you remember them very
//vividly though// |
| F965 |
//uh-huh// |
| F963 |
they might not remember you at
//all because they deal with so many// |
| F965 |
//That's right.//
//That's right, and and// |
| F963 |
//people [inaudible].// |
| F965 |
you know as they come through the school |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
there's so many that are similar,
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
You see the same faces coming through all the time. |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
I met a girl in the in the street,
a few weeks ago.
A great big woman, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
And she hailed me, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
and she said "Mrs [CENSORED: surname]", you know, |
| F963 |
Uh-huh
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//"How are you?" and I said//
//"Just run your name past me", [laugh].// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
And she told me who she was and I immediately remembered
//where, you know, I'd taught her.// |
| F963 |
//Oh, yeah, yeah.//
Well you worked in different places too
//so that must be quite// |
| F965 |
//Uh-huh//
//That's right. I haven't been in the same place for years.// |
| F963 |
//confusing [inaudible].//
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//The kids that I've taught most recently,//
I've had them for such a long time, you know, I've had some of them from primary four to primary seven, |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm |
| F965 |
so I really really couldn't remember that, I mean couldn't forget their
//names.// |
| F963 |
//Right, uh-huh.// |
| F965 |
But erm kids that you've only had for like, this particular girl, I'd only had her when her teacher was away,
//I was there on supply.// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm// |
| F965 |
And she was a lovely girl; she was a lovely girl in school and she's a lovely girl now, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
and er she was so sweet and friendly,
but I couldn't remember her name. |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm.
We used to have a lot of people that kind of came and went, as well, in the classes, you know that they had moved house or they came
//from somewhere else, and, yeah, uh-huh.// |
| F965 |
//Pupils? Mmhm//
//Yeah. [tut]// |
| F963 |
//I don't know if that's happening more or not these,//
//I supopse it does.// |
| F965 |
//I could remember, I think this is common,//
//and, you know, you could remember the// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
kids who went to primary
//school with you.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah, uh-huh.//
We also had people from the the travelling fair
//that used to come in to our school for like the two weeks that they were there.// |
| F965 |
//Oh yes. I had//
that in
//in// |
| F963 |
//Uh-huh// |
| F965 |
er Newbury.
//In Tadley.// |
| F963 |
//Oh really? Right.//
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//Tadley//
had, erm it was a gipsy camp, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
It wasn't really a
//but originally,// |
| F963 |
//Oh I see, right.// |
| F965 |
originally, the the funny thing about Tadley was
it wasn't like an English village, |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm |
| F965 |
which has like the pub and one end of the green and the other pub at the other end
//the green and// |
| F963 |
//Right.//
//Oh yeah, mmhm.// |
| F965 |
//church, you know, on the village green.//
Tadley was different because it had been, originally had been a gipsy encampment.
//And so people// |
| F963 |
//Oh for goodness sake.// |
| F965 |
came and went and came and went and it was very odd.
And every year we had a travelling fair. |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm |
| F965 |
And this wee girl used to come into the school every year. |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm |
| F965 |
[CENSORED: forename] was her name. |
| F963 |
Oh yeah. |
| F965 |
And she had her own roundabout. |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm |
| F965 |
And she was absolutely brilliant at maths. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Rotten at everything else. |
| F963 |
Oh |
| F965 |
Lousy at reading and everything else,
//but// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
fabulous at maths. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
She could do any sum, you know, she could give you your change.
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm//
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//Because that's what she did//
//a lot of the time. Yeah, yeah.// |
| F963 |
//Ah, for the fair. Yeah.//
Well I think it was it was Codona's that used to
//come round.// |
| F965 |
//Uh-huh, that's right.// |
| F963 |
And they always set up in the big field beside
//the school which is now gone.// |
| F965 |
//That's right, yeah. And did the kids come to the school?// |
| F963 |
Yeah,
//yeah, they used to come along for that time.// |
| F965 |
//Oh fabulous, yeah.// |
| F963 |
There were two boys I remember that used to come along.
//And one of them was in our year.// |
| F965 |
//See they were going to//
they were going to whatever school, whatever, wherever they were
//nearest.// |
| F963 |
//They must have been in//
//so many schools, you know?// |
| F965 |
//Yeah, but that must have been quite good actually,//
//when you think about it.// |
| F963 |
//Suppose so.//
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//Very, maybe it wasn't as romantic as it//
//sounds.// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
//Mmhm, not much continuity, but// |
| F965 |
//It sounds romantic, doesn't it?//
//But it sounds fun!// |
| F963 |
//I suppose it would be interesting, [laugh] move around.//
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//But anyway whatever's//
bad about it, you know, you can move on. |
| F963 |
Yeah, yeah, if you really hate the teacher or
//something, you're only there for a couple of weeks. So, yeah, uh-huh.// |
| F965 |
//Yeah, or people are horrible to you, oh I'm only [inaudible].// |
| F963 |
But they were kind of celebrities a wee bit,
//to us, you know, they were they were quite special, and everybody was kind of interested in them, and.// |
| F965 |
//Uh-huh. This wee girl was a celebrity; everybody loves the fair.// |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
Everybody loves it. |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
And especially children. |
| F963 |
Yeah, and it was
//fascinating to us, you know, that you might be a kid that lived like that, and you know,// |
| F965 |
//Mm mm yeah.//
//Oh yeah, I think that's// |
| F963 |
//it was interesting.// |
| F965 |
quite ideal, |
| F963 |
Mmhm
//Yeah, mmhm.// |
| F965 |
//in it's way.// |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
But it's er, gosh, it's erm,
it might might have been a problem with her education,
//slightly.// |
| F963 |
//Mm, yeah.//
//Don't know. I suppose if they were// |
| F965 |
//But if they were just going to carry on and inherit// |
| F963 |
yeah, if they're going to go in to the business
//anyway,// |
| F965 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
then they were learning their
//trade, even when they were young.// |
| F965 |
//Yeah, but like like I say this//
wee girl could, really could not read that well. |
| F963 |
Yeah, mm |
| F965 |
But she was fabulous with money. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
And that's an asset. |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
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