| F1189 |
It's the seventeenth of June, two thousand and nine, and I'm in the company of Harry Stewart Ferguson in the National Yacht Club in Toronto.
And it's a pleasure to be here today, Harry.
Thanks very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to speak with me about your reading experiences across your lifetime.
Now could I begin by asking you, erm first of all, when you were born, if you've no scruples about that, and when you were born? |
| M1202 |
The second of September, nineteen thirty-three, in Glasgow,
which is my native city. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And er I grew up there and was educated there, except for a period during the war when I was shipped to a school in the Highlands. |
| F1189 |
Right, so you were evacuated? |
| M1202 |
Yes. |
| F1189 |
Oh well, we shall hear a bit about that. Now, whereabouts in Glasgow were you born? |
| M1202 |
Govan. Yep. |
| F1189 |
That's a famous place. |
| M1202 |
It is, it's er I think, er, a place where a lot, I don't mean to be sounding grandiose, but a lot of very clever and talented people came from Govan.
And of course I think that had a lot to do with the technology of the Clyde. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And erm that was an area that I was active in. |
| F1189 |
It it sounds like it, and here we are in a maritime place, yet again, so that seems to be a constant thread throughout your life.
Now, can you tell me a wee bit about your family then, erm when you were growing up in Govan? |
| M1202 |
Er my mother's people were from er the East coast. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And er they came from Kirk of Shotts. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Er.
Basically er she met my father after he came out of the Army.
My father was born on the West coast and he er for many years er was in India.
He was an officer with a Scottish regiment, the Cameronians.
And they spent er nearly fifteen years in India. |
| F1189 |
Mm.
But you were act- you were born in Scotland?
//Right, I see, uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
//No, I was born after he came out of the Army, and erm he had retired,// |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and he joined the Civil Service by then. |
| F1189 |
Right.
And did you have any brothers and sisters? |
| M1202 |
I did, I had one sister,
//Violet,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
and she died during the Second World War. |
| F1189 |
Oh right, so, was that a younger sister then?
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, she was six when she died, and I was seven.// |
| F1189 |
Mmhm mmhm.
That must have been a bit of a blow then, to
//your family, mm.// |
| M1202 |
//It was a terrible blow to the family and of course er my father never was the same again.// |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
It er was a dreadful thing as you can well imagine. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And erm we had to carry on with our life after that.
But it wasn't, er it wasn't a good experience at all. |
| F1189 |
Now erm your home in Govan, what was that like? |
| M1202 |
You mean socially? |
| F1189 |
Physically, what was it like? Now Govan is mixed types of housing, tenement housing... |
| M1202 |
Well we we lived in a a very nice street that was called South Croft Street, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and er they were red sandstone tenements. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er it was quite a nice house, fairly well appointed, but it was along the lines of Glasgow tenement living.
Erm that type of living was er somewhat er relaxed for us, because my grandmother, who was a very successful businesswoman in the city of Glasgow, she bought a large house on the coast for both families, my mother and father's side that is, to come down for summer, summer holidays and long weekends. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
So er that er took us away from the big city, and got us down to the fresh air of the sea coast. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
And that was, I think you told me, in Saltcoats?
//Is that right, uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
//Saltcoats, yeah, yeah.//
//A very old house when she bought it, in fact it had a romance about it, because it had been used by smugglers who were running contraband from er Ireland, I believe it was rum they were shipping in.// |
| F1189 |
//Uh-huh mmhm mmhm.//
//[laugh] It would be.// |
| M1202 |
//And//
it was quite a story in the family,
//a lot of us didn't believe it until// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
my uncle, William, my mother's brother, er took me into the kitchen er on the first floor, and er that had a flagstone floor, and one of the flagstones had a ring in it, and he took me down there with an old oil-lamp and we lifted er this slab of stone and there was a stairway going down, |
| F1189 |
Uh-huh? |
| M1202 |
and er there was a tunnel going down to the sea. |
| F1189 |
Mm? |
| M1202 |
And he took me right down to the end of it, that had been bricked up long ago,
but you could hear the sea crashing on the rocks, if you put your ear close to the bricks.
So this was him telling me, "look, this is an authentic story". |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And this was apparently where they brought the goods in,
and the house was used for that purpose.
The laugh was that it was only about three hundred yards to the harbour mouth and that's where the Customs and
//Excise office was, [laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
so they must have been bringing it in under the noses of the officials. |
| F1189 |
Well they do say that's the best way to to hide
//criminality, do it in the obvious place. [laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, to be as close to the dragon's mouth as possible, yes. [laugh]// |
| F1189 |
That's a lovely story.
Now you must have memories of both the tenement house in Govan and that large house in Saltcoats. |
| M1202 |
Well that large house in Saltcoats was er the domain, if I can call it that, of my uncle Willie, |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
//and he was my mother's brother, as I said.//
And er he had, he was a devotee historian of er the Boer War. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And he had a favourite chair in in the living room, and I always remember that as a boy, there was a large equestrian portrait hanging over the chair. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and it was of er General Roberts who was one of the heroes of er of the Boer War. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And er, he sat under that, and ruled the household.
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
It was filled with er delightful sort of little
//nooks and crannies.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
It erm it was also a a very well built house. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And there was a great rambling attic upstairs, filled with brass bedsteads which I would give my eye-teeth for today. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And er we had a lot of fun there as kids playing games and what-not. |
| F1189 |
Certainly sounds like it, mm.
Now, can you tell me then, in amongst all of that rather romantic er background of the house in Saltcoats, if there were books in there?
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes there were, there were many on history.//
Er, Willie wasn't a professional historian - he was er w- self-taught, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
but had prodigious knowledge about the campaigns in the Sudan and in er in in er the Transvaal during the Boer War.
And he would fill my, and rainy days in Scotland, which were quite common as you know,
he would er find me a captive audience and he would fill my head with these stories.
Now often at breakfast or dinner er the cutlery would become divisions of armies,
and er the teapot was the the target,
//and er// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
he would re-enact all of these movements.
I didn't know for instance that there was a Dundee brigade that fought in the Boer War, but there was. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And he would erm, in meticulous detail, go over all these campaigns, so it was a very good er er opening for a boy, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
er growing up.
//Aye.// |
| F1189 |
//It sounds like it. It sounds like the stuff of novels, actually, Harry.//
//Uh-huh. [laugh] Mm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, in in a way, er er and of course er//
//that lore was added to by my father's experience in India.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Er he was a a very well-read man, and had er, he was a bit of a linguist actually - he mastered Hindi, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
//and erm he could read, write and speak Urdu and Pushtu, which are dialects of Hindustani.// |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And er of course he was very, very helpful to me in my reading,
//because er he influenced me in that regard.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
Do you think he was the chief influence then on your reading? |
| M1202 |
I think he and my uncles were.
//Er// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I can go back to the beginning, and er it begins probably with er, well all the traditional books of a young boy in Britain growing up. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And even peculiar to a Scottish boy, er,
there were no restrictions on the literature.
My father advised me to read fairly heavy texts when I was a young man.
//But this was later on, initially I was reading things like er Charles Kingsley's "Water Babies".// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//er, Kipling, a lot of Kipling, again because of the influence of my father, for after all, he really saw the last of the British Raj in India.//
Tut, and I would be reading "Kim", you know, playing the great game, you know, about er spying in that area of the world.
And of course "Rewards and Fairies", I remember that, lovely stuff written by Kipling. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And his poetry, about the Romans in Britain.
My head was filled with a whole lot of mystical nonsense at this stage,
//you know, romantic reading.// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
And er Rider Haggard, er, my father er did an unusual thing when I was er in my teens, er
He, to set the scene I guess, he had been posted to many lonely areas, er he was on the Khyber Pass for four years without a leave,
//during the Afghan rising of nineteen twenty-two.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
And er he would often be as they called it, "up the line", |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and er he said you would read aloud to yourself to hear the sound of your own voice. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And more than that to hear the sound of your native Scottish accent,
//because he was surrounded by troops// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
that were not [laugh] born in Britain at all. He was in command of Sikhs and Gurkhas. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Tut.
Er, he once told a funny story about a relief column coming up the road, with the pipes blazing,
//and they came into the compound,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
and my father was lying back in his bunk reading and he was delighted to hear the commands being er shouted out in a strong Glaswegian
//accent.// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
So he got his Sam Browne on, jumped up, and went down and got spruced up, out into the compound, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and he found that the officer was a turbaned Sikh who had been taught English by a
//Glasgow chap. [laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
So during these sojourns, up the line, as it is, to continue, he he would read er heavily
//er Scottish literature especially.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
Scott, Stevenson, although he said to me once that his favourite author was Hardy. |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//Mm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//He loved er "The Return of the Native" as a beautiful descriptive book of that type of life in England at that time.//
But erm |
| F1189 |
Did your father take these books overseas with him then, or did he
//bring them back, uh-huh?// |
| M1202 |
//He he, yes, he had a trunk//
//that that was filled with stuff, and it came back rather tattered,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
//But he also er//
you must remember the British influence in India was extremely strong
and when he was in the hill stations on leave, which were very pleasant places to go to, it was above the hot humid plains,
//which were south of that,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
there would be well-stocked libraries |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
for er English and Scottish regiments and officers of those regiments.
//So he would he would borrow from that.// |
| F1189 |
//That's very interesting. Mm.// |
| M1202 |
Erm, but of course he also wrote his mother in Glasgow and told told her to send him out certain books. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And she would send these intellectual relief packages, [laugh]
and he would get stuck right into them. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
But he did a most unusual thing for me, and when you spoke to me originally about this idea, which I think is a wonderful idea,
er recording what scots have read, that is,
erm he approached me one day and he said er "I want you to read all of the Waverley novels of Sir Walter Scott".
And he said "for every novel that you read, I will pay you a pound".
//Now, this was a long time ago,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
and I was on a few shillings a week pocket money,
so the idea of reading a book and getting a pound for reading that book, I jumped at the chance.
So he said the first book had to be "Old Mortality",
and the reason for that is that it's about the Covenanters,
//and of course// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
that's about the founding of my father's regiment. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
John Cameron, you know, the preaching in the heather, hiding their swords under the heather,
the King's troops coming after them, and all that sort of stuff, so very romantic stuff, and very true to the history of Scotland.
Er, so I galloped through "Old Mortality",
//and I// |
| F1189 |
//Well done!// |
| M1202 |
put my hand out for the pound, and he said "No, no, no, there's a test first."
I had forgotten at this stage that my father had read every one of the Waverleys.
And er, I failed the test.
Er, and the reason I failed the test was I scliffed through it.
For a boy in his teens it was fairly heavy reading at the time.
He said "Go back and read the book properly and then come and get your money."
So I did this time, I went and I read it carefully, making notes as I read it, he got me into that habit. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Cause I wanted to make these notes to make sure that I'd memorised what I'd been reading.
So I passed the test, I got the money, and it was a stipulation of course it had to be put into the bank, and the other stipulation was I couldn't withdraw any money.
So long story short, by the age of nineteen, I had read all of the Waverleys, I had a good bit of money in the bank, and he had opened the doors of my country's [inaudible].
So, er I think it was a remarkable thing for a father to do. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And it got me going, erm, it's no accident that today I'm er the president of the Sir Walter Scott society at the University of Toronto.
And er the joy of reading these books, and re-reading them, that's what happens, you know, when you start to get really involved, is just a lifelong comfort. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
So that's one section of Scottish reading that I'm rather proud of, you know? |
| F1189 |
Did you always enjoy them, Harry, you know, when you first encountered them as a as a young man, because as you say, they're pretty heavy-going. |
| M1202 |
Oh I think he was er clever in introducing the first one as being, the first one to be read as being er "Old Mortality",
because he'd already told me an awful lot about the lore and legends of his regiment. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And I lived on this stuff as a boy, you know,
my head was full of Kipling and of course this fitted in.
Er, therefore er that er made me er well sort of acceptable mental
//territory to to to// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
to paste this onto.
Er.
That I looked for in the other novels.
I didn't always find it.
Some of them were hard-going.
I can remember that. Er, I think the toughest one for me was er "Peveril of the Peak".
And erm that being said, the others were more related to the essence of Scottish history,
//to Rob Roy,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
to Montrose, to the Rebellions.
//Er, the first one of course is a grand novel, and takes its name er from the English officer,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
Mm. |
| M1202 |
who experiences er meeting the Highlanders
//for the first time,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
and the Rising of forty-five, his name was Waverley, and that gave the name to the whole series.
Er, I can I can answer your question honestly by saying I I did enjoy them. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I had done quite a bit of heavy reading on my own by this time,
er not that Kipling's heavy-going but he's highly detailed. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
so my mind was sort of trained to erto pick its way through complex plots and get the most out of them, you know?
//I hope that answers your question.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
So the the financial incentive became secondary, would you say,
//to your actual enjoyment of them? [laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//Oh it'd be di-, it'd be dishonest [laugh]//
//It would be dishonest to say that the financial incentive er played a a minor role.// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh] [cough]// |
| M1202 |
It, it, because of my typical, shall we say youthful, er bent for the acquisition of money, and being a Scots, I guess I'd a thousand years of that bred into me, [laugh]
er no, making money out of reading Scott was a joy.
//you know, because it was a two-fold joy.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
At first it was only a case of getting that pound. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Yes, I admit that.
But the magic of my father's wisdom was that half-way through, I realised the glory of this stuff,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
And what it did, er, in the long run, and that's where the money becomes completely unimportant,
it er it gave me a richness in my life that otherwise I would not have had.
And that's the whole thing about reading, it's the richness that it imparts to you, it forces you to think.
It also lifts the barriers of ignorance,
Because we all have preconceived ideas about the certain situation or religion and attitude of
//another country.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Reading opens that door. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And when it opens it, it can't close again,
because you're a better informed person. |
| F1189 |
You've just answered actually usually what is the last question I ask people, but thank you for that, and you did it extremely articulately.
Now before I go on, just as a matter of interest for myself, you mentioned your grandmother, and that she was a businesswoman, can I ask what kind of business it was she was in?
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
//She had a line of clothing stores, in Glasgow.//
She started out in second-hand clothing and then moved upscale, basically ladies'
//shops, lingerie.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm Mm.// |
| M1202 |
She started out in the old ancient trading area in Glasgow called the Candleriggs. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And she was a Victorian to her fingertips, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
in demeanour and attitude, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
in her sense of moral rightness, you know?
And she of course infected her sons by this. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Willie was one of them,
//who// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
ruled the house at Saltcoats. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm? |
| M1202 |
Er, she was a delightful person. |
| F1189 |
Can I ask what her name was? |
| M1202 |
Her name was Mary Kempton. |
| F1189 |
Mm.
I'll need to see if I can find out a bit about her. She sounds remarkable, actually. [laugh] |
| M1202 |
I I think she was a pretty clever woman, she er, [exhale], my back- my background was physics,
//that I was involved in,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
fairly sophisticated engineering stuff, in, well in Scotland as well as as here.
But erm one of the divisions
//of the company// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
er is in retail.
And I think the reason I moved the company over into that activity was because of the influence from my genes from that one woman,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
She was a strong Scottish woman, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
with fixed ideas,
and er quite successful, you know? |
| F1189 |
She's left a legacy, certainly. |
| M1202 |
Yes, mm. |
| F1189 |
Now, if we go back to the house in Saltcoats, to these books, the military books, the history books, that your uncle had, where were they kept? |
| M1202 |
We had a a shelving,
//along the walls in one of the rooms, and we turned it into a library,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mm.//
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Er, my books were all over the place. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
in the tenement in Glasgow,
//in drawers and what-not, and [inaudible].// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
Er, there wasn't the room to have a proper library, which I have now.
//Er// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
er there was in the big house on the coast, we would buy books and consult with Willie what he he wanted in the way of reading material.
//Of course,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
he was always er he was always looking at er what we were as a nation,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
And there was an expansiveness to him too, although he was a a typical Scot.
He reminded me of Keir Hardie, in that er he was always immaculately dressed, black shoes, navy blue three-piece suits,
the waistcoat had a gold albert, he had a continually burning cigarette hanging out from his mouth,
and he wore, on top of all this fairly nice attire, a cloth cap.
Never wore a bowler.
But he was, like his mother, er a Victorian, or at least maybe should I say Edwardian,
//because he'd// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
modernised his thinking a bit from her.
But they were Empirists, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
you know, they were part of the British Empire,
//they were part of the story of the// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
British Empire, my own father's history,
and when you stand back and look at them, erm they were a sort of admirable crowd, you know?
Not from the point of view of the- their attractiveness as characters, cause they had all the varieties of ups and downs in that one area,
but from what they represented - |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
they were a Scottish family. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er. |
| F1189 |
And would you say they'd been upwardly mobile then? |
| M1202 |
Yes, I would say so, er, I visit my family regularly
//in Scotland, and er// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
//they're in the professions://
doctors, two of them, one architect. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er, a man who, unrelated to me through marriage, who was er my cousin Ann's husband, he became president of the er Royal Society
//of Scottish Surveyors in Scotland.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
He is a surveyor by profession. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Er, yes they are, they're good people who've achieved success in life,
//yeah.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
Now can you recall taking books down to Saltcoats
//from the flat in Govan?// |
| M1202 |
//Oh yes.//
//Yes, yes, I used to take them...// |
| F1189 |
//And can you remember anything in particular?// |
| M1202 |
tut, well being that my uncles and er my father influenced me in military history,
Er, I became addicted to er the poems of er, of Owens,
and er Sassoon. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Er Siegfried Sassoon of course wrote very eloquently about the First World War, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and er Owen of course er in his "Dulce et Decorum Est" shocked me as a boy. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er, we've seen black and white representations, crude as they were,
er of gassing in the First World War, we've read good descriptions of it, good in the sense of detail, I mean,
er but they can never convey what he wrote in that poem, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
describing a soldier suffering from the attack of a a a gas attack, suffering from that attack.
It's absolutely dreadful.
And he lampoons the old Roman observation, it is a great and glorious thing to die for your country. |
| F1189 |
Now who was it that introduced you to the poetry of Owen? |
| M1202 |
My father. |
| F1189 |
Right. |
| M1202 |
My father also introduced me to Cicero, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
and Seneca. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
He loved the ancients.
And erm he loved Shakespeare of course, and Dryden. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Milton, he loved Milton.
So erm he was a very liberally educated man. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And his influence on me has been very strong. |
| F1189 |
What about your mother then? Was she a reader at all? |
| M1202 |
My mother was a reader er but nowhere into the areas of the influence of my father or of the stuff I was reading then in my formative years. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I remember one author that she she loved, and she did read a lot, it's unfair to say that she didn't.
Annie S. Swann was her name.
And she devoured the novels of this woman.
And she loved that er that milieu, you know, all of that literature, where it came from, you know, she would read soppy stuff that I used to curl my nose up at, The People's Friend and stuff like this. [laugh]
//But she was a romantic person in that sense, in her reading.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
She never plumbed the depths of intellectualism my father did. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
But er no, she was a reader.
She was a busy little Scottish housewife, and she liked sitting down by the fire and and reading a good book, as she called it, you know? |
| F1189 |
Now where would those books have come from, do you know? |
| M1202 |
Well we were regular buyers
//of books.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
I mean, I was reading "Das Kapital" er when I was young, my father encouraged me to do this.
Er, Marx and Engels, you know, he said "If you read these, you'll understand what's happening in the world."
And I was ploughing my way through that, not realising that this force that was emerging on the other side of the world was something that we'd have to be
//attending with one day.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And he of course was filled with all sorts of prophetic books on that.
Er, so listening to him making these observations, er he was a great detailer, I mean the average person during the Second World War, er there probably were many who did this, but I didn't know of anyone but my father. He had a map of Europe with flags on it. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And as he listened to the news about advances and retreats, the flags would move back and forth over the map. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And that was stuck up on the kitchen wall, you know? [laugh]
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]//
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//I mean, you can't get any more military than that, you know?//
And of course he wasn't involved with er anything to do with the military by then. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
Now reading Marx and Engels then, was your father's interest in who were then an ally of of of the U- United Kingdom, Russia that is?
Or was he interested in the politics of it? |
| M1202 |
Well he was influenced in the politics of it, because it fitted in with Keir Hardie, it fitted in with socialism,
and of course you must remember that Glasgow gr- gave a great deal of itself, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and erm as they say over here, she's never had a fair
//shake, as far as the industrial cities are concerned.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
Certainly er, it caused the breeding of a certain type of socialism, which Winston Churchill called the Red Clydesiders. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
You know about this of course, and er there was a good reason for it.
Erm... |
| F1189 |
I just wondered if your father was sympathetic to leftist politics at that time. |
| M1202 |
He was at one time, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
er and then he became discouraged by it,
//as events moved on.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
Er this happens many times in history.
Er it even happened to Burns, because he was influenced by the er
//French Revolution.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
Er, it's a case of idealism coming to the fore.
And then reality setting in, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and time of course, the other amalgam. These two things suddenly make you see things in a different light.
The initial concept of the French Revolution fitted exactly to Robert Burns. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
"Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité".
I mean they're... Fraternité especially, 'brotherhood of man', that's Burns.
That's Marx and Engels.
So all of this is lovely, in theory.
But, you know, when he shipped those cannons, Burns that is, over to er to France,
and there is, by the way, one of the best er biographies I've re- ever read on Burns, is by a German,
who was killed during the air-raids, ironically, in in Berlin.
Hans Hecht was his name. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
H.E.C.H.T.
He wrote a lovely biography of Bu- lovely in the sense that it was fully encompassing,
did away with a lot of the dross that you hear,
and he questions closely this legend as it's, as it has become of of the shipping of the the cannons.
But at any rate, be that as it may, er the general er story is that he was called up to report on that before a committee because he was a Customs and Excise officer at that time.
Er the thing that Hecht says, and it's very important,
Customs and Excise kept absolutely immaculate records in London. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
They were highly detailed, as you can well imagine. They were dealing with the flow of goods; they would have to be.
There's no mention of those cannons.
And yet many biographers allude to it in the story of Burns.
I- I'm losing you,
//I'm digressing.// |
| F1189 |
//Since you mention Burns though, can I ask who introduced you to Burns?//
//At what age that would be?// |
| M1202 |
//Oh my father, my father and//
//my uncle.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
My uncle Willie er was a member of a Burns club
//in Ayr,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
and he would take me to the Burns suppers.
And my father would take me to the ones in St Andrews Halls in Glasgow. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Oh the house was surrounded by Burns lore.
My father loved Burns' poetry.
//He was soaked in it, you know,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
and of course I was the inheritor of that. |
| F1189 |
Now what were those Burns Club meetings like for a a young boy? |
| M1202 |
Oh they were confusing, you know, because I was wondering what the order of of er coming and going was, and by going to many of them I soon found out what that
//was all about.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
Er he was a great lover of er er of er, or there were many great lovers of Masonry
//in Scotland,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
and of course that was related to Burns because he was he was in, I think it was Tarbolton Lodge.
So there was that mystique with it as well, and I had to sort through that to get to the literature, you know?
I-, to me, with reading and thinking about it, he's, he has become one of the most magnificent figures in English literature. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er, he is a giant.
Many would say no, because they say they don't understand his language.
And they say that all he wrote in was in the Doric. He did not.
He wrote many poems in English and many songs
//in English.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
But people think that, especially Scots, they think that he he he s-, he writes I should say, in the Doric, and therefore, you know, the foreigner will not appreciate him.
//It's not true.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
Many foreigners, if if you want to use that word, do appreciate him.
Er, Nelson Mandela was comforted by reading Burns |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
when he was in prison. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er, tut Germaine Greer,
//feminist,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
she was comforted by Burns.
//Oh yes, yes, she was.// |
| F1189 |
//Really? Now I didn't know that, Harry. [laugh] Uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
Er particularly one poem er where er he er, it was a benefit concert, and he wrote this for this concert.
And er one of the lines is "Amid the mighty fuss, just let me mention, the rights of women merit some attention."
//Those are Burns' lines, yeah?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
So she was influenced, not by the body of his work, but by that.
//Plus the fact that he was a fair-minded man.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
She reviled him for what he did to women, she didn't like that.
So, you know, there's a dichotomy here, but nevertheless, she acknowledged it.
That was a remarkable piece of writing, for the eighteenth century, for someone to say that then, you know? |
| F1189 |
Now I was about to to mention that, because it is surprising, and I didn't know Germaine Greer had made any comment on Burns,
that a feminist would have much sympathy for him, and what you thought about this,
//his personal life then,// |
| M1202 |
//tut.//
//Well she was highly intelligent woman, she couldn't have done what she did do without being so,// |
| F1189 |
//[inaudible] Mmhm mm.//
//Mm mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//so she could look at something and perceive the strengths and the weaknesses, as as all good gifted people can.//
//And it's in that light that she looked at Burns.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
Oh I'm not saying she was enamoured of him, no I don't mean that at all.
//But.// |
| F1189 |
//Would you share that view then,//
with regard to the the failings of his personal life, in comparison with his his literary stature then? |
| M1202 |
His failings were basically er harked upon more as time went on, er there was a certain period where we became very prudish, er he was scoffed at for what he did, with women, I mean. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And then of course we enter this age, where we let everything hang out.
Anything goes. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I mean, we no longer believe in, I should say, we no longer believe in marriage, er,
er couples live together now, cohabit, and then decide whether or not they should get married. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er, so his, attitudes towards women will have softened in that regard, to a certain extent.
I'm, I'm surmising here,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
Er, but er he really er was a very humane person.
Er, he was a mixture of course of strengths and weaknesses, and er the strengths in my opinion far outweigh the weaknesses.
He er he idolised women, he he wrote some of the loveliest lines
//ever written to women.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Er
I think the song "My love is like a red, red rose" and everybody says this and it's true,
everybody says it because it is true,
it's beautiful, you know? |
| F1189 |
Well I would agree with you.
//Absolutely. Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//But he also got down to the nuts and bolts of men and women living together.//
You know and his poems are sprinkled with it, you know, "Ah gentle dames! It gars me greet, to think how mony counsels sweet, how mony lengthen'd, sage advices, the husband frae the wife despises."
And that's from Tam O'Shanter, and it's beautiful.
And it's life today, never mind then. |
| F1189 |
Mm mm.
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//They're out there despising the wife all the time! [laugh]// |
| F1189 |
So, it's eternal then?
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//It's eternal.//
//And that's what he wrote about.// |
| F1189 |
//Uh-huh mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And erm, well he er he was a remarkable individual.
Er, the other thing that they do with Burns, and we do this constantly, people in history,
erm we had we had an old professor called McNab in Glasgow, and he said "Gentlemen, you must never make this mistake,
take someone out of context in history, and judge them by the standards of
//today."// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
And that's what we do with Burns.
He, when he sinned, it was like sinning in the spotlight.
I mean he wasn't a common man,
//he wasn't an ordinary fellow.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
He was unusual - even Scots recognis- recognised this. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And that's a hard thing to do, Scots don't like recognising genius in anyone else, [laugh] even a fellow Scot.
I shouldn't say anyone else, that's not fair to my to my nation.
//But you know what I mean, there's a// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
a taciturn attitude, aye, I always remember one fellow saying if you invented an anti-gravity machine, er, and your name was blasted around the world as a genius, the highest praise you could receive in the city of Glasgow would be "Aye, it's no bad." [laugh]
[laugh] There's an element in the character of us that, you know, that actually is like that. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm, or "I kent, I kent his
//faither". [laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//"I kent his faither". Oh, you know who writes//
extensively about that? James Leslie Mitchell.
//Er,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//oh he he er, they actually said that about him, because he was a genius too.//
And erm the the the er the people in Mearns never forgave him for exposing them as they thought
//to the world.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
What he did was he enshrined them forever. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
He made them immortal.
You know, I'm probably using high-falutin phrases here, but you know what I mean.
//He he he// |
| F1189 |
//No, I do know what you mean, mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
he he put them on the map. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And it's a wonderful collection of stories about a wonderful set of people.
//That whole// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
area of Scotland, the East coast, the Mearns, it's lovely, it's delightful, and those stories are gorgeous.
But they didn't like him for doing that. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And of course he, you know, he moved off to London and became another person.
In fact he wrote with two names. |
| F1189 |
Yes, mmhm.
//Mmhm [inaudible].// |
| M1202 |
//Erm, no, not this, getting back to Burns just before we leave it, er,//
When said, as I said, he was sinning in the spotlight, and also in that century, they were all sinners.
They were all bedding women all over the place.
Glencairn was, you know.
And he was one of his benefactors.
All the aristocracy were. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
But, you never said that about the laird,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
He could be doing like er all over the country and er no-one would ever say anything. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
But let Burns do it? Mm, how dare you! You know?
So.
Sorry, I went on a bit about
//Burns.// |
| F1189 |
//No, no, no, that was//
it was good for me to hear actually, Harry, erm, |
| M1202 |
Thank you. |
| F1189 |
Could I go back and ask you where you went to school then?
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
//I went to school er in Glasgow,//
er and er during that period of of er high school |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
er I was sent away. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Oh it wasn't even high school, it was just before going to high school. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And I was sent to er a small school er outside Tighnabruaich. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And I was raised there for for three years.
That erm there's a wisdom in that.
You know, one of the, I think it's G.K. Chesterton said that the English are a strange race,
They keep their dogs at home and they send their children away to be educated.
But, you know, laugh as we may at
//that,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
there's a strength in it.
In fact er, the strength helped to build the British Empire, I mean was it Wellington that said that er Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton? |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
That element is in there. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And erm sending your your child away is not such a bad thing. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
You have to eventually cut the umbilical cord. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And that happens.
Boys and girls leave home, some never return, you know?
But you do eventually leave your mother.
And it's as true in the animal kingdom as it is with humans. |
| F1189 |
Well you were living in Govan and that would have been a dangerous place really to be, on the Clydeside during the war.
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, it was, in fact the most poignant moment of my life was leaving my mother and father,// |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
because they er they were saying, you know, "this is for your education, we want you to go to a better school", stuff like this, and er, that was the pretence
//really.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er the real reason was they wanted me to be away from the possible destruction
//of what would happen.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.//
//Mm. Mm.// |
| M1202 |
//I was bombed four times, you know?//
And erm |
| F1189 |
In your home?
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Well I w- I was at home when the raids took place, yes, and er in fact er//
one of the buildings across the street got struck. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Erm, the funny thing about the Germans, being a scientific and engineering race, and superb in those areas,
they were very bad bombingers.
I mean we had a thing called the Norden bombsight during the war.
I think it was developed in the US. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
But it was a very accurate method of dropping bombs, you could pinpoint targets.
Germans er were dreadful, they they they made raids on Clydebank
//especially, as you know.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
And er it was terrible, I mean there was people struck on streetcars, tramcars as they called them, and er tenements got it, you know, sticks of bombs [inaudible].
They they they saw the scintillating of the cobbles in the moonlight one night, and they thought that was the River Clyde.
And they just let their loads go, you know?
Er... |
| F1189 |
Fear might have had had something to do with that, I suppose, affecting people's judgement. |
| M1202 |
I think the, yeah, the f-, there would also be another fear - they were running out of fuel. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er their range of operations was restricted. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er these were elemental scientific mistakes made by the Luftwaffe,
principally because of a man called Hermann Göring.
He was so boastful about what they could do that he didn't pay as much attention to air [inaudible] as he should have. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er, thank God he did, you know?
//Yes, yes, yes.// |
| F1189 |
//Yes indeed, you're still here! [laugh]//
Now what was your school in Glasgow? |
| M1202 |
My school was er St Gerard's. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And er that er, I I may offend you here if I say this, and I don't mean to, but er that that gave me er an exposure to er Catholicism. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And you know, it was a funny thing as a young man, growing up. That didn't fit in with my thinking at all.
Well I was criticised for reading "Das Kapital", for obvious reasons.
I didn't like that, I didn't like anyone telling me that I could and could not read. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
My father had opened the doors, things, you know, and I was running against the tide, and stuff like that, but er
It also exposed me too to the beauty of the reli- the religion. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And it is a very beautiful religion.
It has drama and er colour, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and er the strange thing is, I read later in life, a lot of intellectuals converted to Catholicism. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
But er I became a Protestant. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
I always boasted that I became a Protestant in my own lifetime, I didn't inherit it. |
| F1189 |
Right, so so you converted then, |
| M1202 |
Yes, I did. |
| F1189 |
if you like? But your family were Roman Catholic? |
| M1202 |
No they weren't. No, my mother was er Episcopalian, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
and my father was Catholic. |
| F1189 |
Right, uh-huh. |
| M1202 |
And of course he er, he, I guess really what I'm describing here is, I went through a catharsis,
//and he also did.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
He came back to Scotland after many years in India. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And, he saw terrible sectarianism
//in India.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
Dreadful bloodshed coupled to it, as you know, reading history,
//And he was shocked when he came out the Army and saw this in his own city of Glasgow.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
And it was terrible. I mean we couldn't - I, and this is a funny this for a Scot to say, but I developed an aversion to football.
And the reason was it was so sectarian. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I mean you had these fellows going through the streets wearing either a green and white scarf, or a blue an-
//blue scarf.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.//
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//One was Rangers and the other was Celtic.//
And you had to go to certain segregated ends of the park.
//Now this disgusted me.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I even remember one day seeing something similar to nineteen seventeen, in Russia,
when the Cossacks, ran into, mounted
//Cossacks,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
ran into the crowds.
I saw the same thing at Ibrox Park. |
| F1189 |
Mm mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Mounted policemen clubbing crowds of people around the horses. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And when I saw this it just put me right off football. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm mmhm. |
| M1202 |
He saw this when he came back. He'd seen sectarianism in India, saw it in Scotland,
And he became, what's the term, he became a lukewarm Catholic,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
//Yes, [laugh] mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//So there's a fair [inaudible] ground ground for a for a divided mind, [laugh] and I suppose that's what I grew up with.//
A divided mind.
But it it gave me a strength too, because I always try to see the the fair side of things.
That coupled with the literature that he was steering me towards
//had a lot to do with it.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Erm... |
| F1189 |
But you went to a Catholic school, nonetheless.
And that would have been the done thing, I imagine?
//Right. Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes it was, yeah, yeah.// |
| F1189 |
Now during the Second World War, whilst you were still in Glasgow, do you remember going to any air-raid places during the bombing or...? |
| M1202 |
Oh yes, I remember er
we all went to school with a silly little square cardboard
//box,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//and a string round our shoulders to hold it.//
//And in in that box was a rubber gas-mask.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mm.// |
| M1202 |
It was a horrible thing. |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//And er you looked like Darth Vader when you put it on.//
Er, I remember taking that gas-mask to Copeland Road, there was a school there, Copeland Road School,
And in the parking-lot at the Copeland Road School, not parking-lot, I should say the school
//yard, they had built air-raid shelters.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
They used these as, one of them they used as a
//gas chamber.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And they filled it with er, I guess it was a mild form of gas, really just to see
//if if the mask worked.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
It wasn't deadly.
But I remember it stinging our eyes and making us cry. We had to go into this thing with the gas-mask on. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Really what they were doing was a very sensible thing. They wanted to find out if the mask leaked. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And er you were alright if it didn't,
//you could use that mask.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
So the others who had, you know, something wrong with the rubber or
//was cracked, they had those repaired instantly.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
But I remember that. I remember er er the baffle walls outside the entrance to the [inaudible].
They were made of corrugated steel, er they were filled with sand.
And er I remember the raids. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I remember in the morning going to school and we'd pick up pieces of shrapnel which had come from the shells fired at the aircraft
//the night before,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Or from shatters of bombs I guess, or shattering I should say, of bombs.
Also the strange sight of all the store windows lying on the sidewalk, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
because with the explosions er they created er negative atmosphere inside the building, and the windows would not er explode, they would implode,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
Erm... |
| F1189 |
Now one of the images that's been perpetuated about people spending time in air-raid shelters is that they read.
Can you recall ever doing that? |
| M1202 |
No, I was a very foolish boy. My father was, you know, upset by it. I would er I would not go down to the shelter at night. I would lie in bed and let them bomb. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I did that a few times, and then I saw some serious accidents, of course that changed my mind.
But the experience of going into any sort of bomb-shelter was a hurried er sojourn in the darkness, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
uncomfortable, cold, draughty, not conducive to reading.
//Er,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
lighting was either non-existent, or very poor.
So no, I don't remember ever huddled up with a book reading
//during an air-raid.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
I was too busy thinking about what was going on overhead and what might happen down below. [laugh]
It was a, it was a time er which er provided a very good laxative. [laugh]
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//That's a good way of putting it. [laugh]//
//Now, some people, yes, now. [laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//Easy, easy to laugh at it now, but it wasn't funny then.// |
| F1189 |
Also easy to say is that so-, well some people say it was quite a good time to be a boy, erm and that was reflected in the literature of the time.
Er, the sorts of things boys could read about, Biggles for example. |
| M1202 |
Well that's another, that's another area of literature I I I meant to touch on and I forgot.
//Erm,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//I read the Beano and the Dandy and the Hotspur.//
And one of my favourite comic books was the Wizard. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And there was a character there that I was highly enamoured of, whose name was Wilson,
and he was a sort of super-athlete.
There were also intimations in the very clever writing, er clever from the point of view of a boys' story,
er that he er was a subject of reincarnation, er that he had lived before or something.
Er it was never really definitely er indicated,
//but er// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
vaguely alluded to.
And er you believed in this because he was super-human, you know?
Not in the Superman sense of er what we have in the United States, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and there are reasons for those too, you know, we we shouldn't scoff at them, you know, we need heroes.
Er I mean I used to be enamoured of er Morte d'Arthur, Tennyson and the Knights of the Round Table. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And of course, what's the modern equivalent? Harry Potter.
//You know?// |
| F1189 |
//How deep?// |
| M1202 |
It's something for the kids to be er amazed about, er have their imaginations fired by. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And that's what these things do.
So this Wilson character, oh yes, he impressed me, you know, he could climb cliffs with amazing agility.
He could run the hundred yards in no time flat, you know, he was er er a marvellous character.
And er it came out... I think it was a weekly er... |
| F1189 |
Where did you get your comics from?
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Oh from the local newsagents around the corner.//
//Er, little sweetie shop, as they called it, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And these er products would arrive dead on time, and you would go down and buy your copy and then race away to some cubbyhole and devour this.
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]//
Now did you keep your comics?
//Or did you exchange them? Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
//I did. I I exchanged them and er...//
Oh I kept them and I exchanged them.
Erm, the the surprising thing was that later on in life, I became very fond of George Orwell, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
especially his essays,
//"Shooting an Elephant" and stuff like that.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
"Down and Out in Paris and London", er that was another essay.
//Er, "Keep the Aspidistra Flying",// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
er "Nineteen Eighty-Four", but there was a delightful one in his essays, called "Boys' Weeklies".
And I devoured this, and I've read it and re-read it many times.
It describes Billy Bunter, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
er in his study, er tucking into a large hamper of tuck, of course.
Er meanwhile, on the frontiers, away from the warmth of the study that Bunter was in, er monocled Englishmen er were holding the natives at bay with swaggersticks.
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
I don't think I've got that quote quite right, but it's close. [laugh]
//[laugh] And er,// |
| F1189 |
//But nearly, yes. [laugh]// |
| M1202 |
he he he wrote another one, very funny one, you remember, well you don't because you're not as old as I am, but
At Saltcoats, at Ardrossan, at Largs,
//these lovely holiday resorts// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
that the Glaswegians would flock to in the summer.
Erm, there was a thing, it was almost a religion, postcards. |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
//They were all done by the same artist: his name was McGill.//
And he had these outrageous postcards of the big fat Govan woman and the wee skinny Glasgow man. [laugh] It was, it was like "Oor Wullie" er in a way.
And erm he, Orwell, wrote a very good essay on this, |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
//about these postc- - he analysed it.//
Why they're written, er the way they are, why they're drawn the way they are.
And er I recommend it to you, if you've never read it. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
I'll look out for that.
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Oh it it it's funny, you know?//
//And especially the one on Boys' Weeklies.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
Orwell was quite critical really of the influence that Boys' weeklies had
//on the young generation.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, that's right, he was.//
Yeah, well he was doing that from the point of view of looking at the Empire,
//and what the Empire had done to people.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm mm.//
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Er, yes, you're right, he does make a comment about that, er...// |
| F1189 |
Did that impinge on you at the time,
that kind of critique? |
| M1202 |
Well we were brought up, er, with a strong sense of Scottish history,
//I mean my// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
my uncle Willie would take me to areas where Wallace had been, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and he would speak about it as if it happened last Tuesday. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And er he would show me the woods that he hid in when he was fleeing from the English and stuff like this.
Same with Bruce, erm, so we were brought up with this er big chip on our shoulders about the English, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
and er you know, lampooning them er and jibing at them in any way we could.
Which, to my mind, in maturity, was wrong.
I think, er, I I went through my own catharsis in the sense that I was rabid about Scottish nationalism
//at one time in my life.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
But then I saw that there was a tremendous strength in the United Kingdom.
//And I stood back, it was like looking at a painting, you know, in a gallery,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
go close to it and it's obscure.
You step back and suddenly it all falls into
//focus.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
Erm I saw that the impact we'd made on the world stage was something to be to be reckoned
//with, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
You know, and then yo-, reading, er er you mentioned earlier about opening a door that never closes,
I've read many biographies about famous p-, I love biographies. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er I've just finished Lincoln, Roosevelt and two on, two on Churchill.
The last one by Roy Jenkins
//on Churchill, magnificent.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
Er, even with our er slant against the English, we all, in Scotland had to admit that Churchill was a magnificent creature. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
No, he was.
I mean, er he was everything in many ways that the hero is composed of. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Stoic, brave, resourceful, intelligent, er.
You can't take that away from him, you know? |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And you say, oh my God he's an Englishman! [laugh] |
| F1189 |
And a wee bit roguish as well.
//Which works well. [laugh] Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, he was, oh yes, yes, that's...//
He always had an answer for everything,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Montgomery used to criticise him and he used to criticise Montgomery.
But he also said that Montgomery was the best general he had in his field forces, you know?
Montgomery boasted to Churchill, he said "I don't drink, I don't smoke, I'm a hundred percent fit", and Churchill scowled back, "I drink, I smoke and I'm two hundred percent fit."
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]//
//Should have been a Scot.// |
| M1202 |
//And he was.//
//[laugh] Almost, yes, yes.// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]//
//Oh a good old age, yes, yes, mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//He lived to be er well into his nineties, I think he was ninety-one when he died.//
Well you read, you read about the whole impact that we've had on the world,
And then of course you become, you become isolationist too, because what do I do, later in life I follow the well-worn path across the Atlantic,
//and I come to Canada.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
And I'm proud to see what part we played here. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I mean the average Scot home in Scotland, who has never left its shores, in many cases they do not know what we did here. |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//We came here to this wilderness. We tamed it.//
//Marvellous names, Mackenzie, you know,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
going along that river coast, across the prairies, and eventually getting to to the Pacific, not that the river flowed all the way to the Pacific, they had to do portaging and what-not,
//but his story alone is marvellous, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
And then the first Prime Minister, Glasgow-born man, you know, his statue's down on the |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//lawn here at Queen's Park, you know?//
And so you you stand back again from the painting and you see what a small nation has done.
Not just here, but New Zealand and Australia. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
B-, before I go on, I'm going to ask you about coming to Canada.
Could I just ask you if y-, if you've read anything recently along those lines about the impact of Scots on both Empire and in more recent times on places of settlement like Canada, New Zealand and Australia? |
| M1202 |
Well er, yes, I have, er by dint of cooperation with other groups, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I don't mean by that that I was forced to read it, I mean I I enjoyed it, er,
Because of my activities, I am a businessman
//basically, I'm not an academic,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
but I've been er close to academe er all my life,
//er both at the University of Guelph and the University of Toronto.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Erm, I er was the first chair of the Scottish Studies Foundation at the University of
//Guelph.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
And I gave papers there,
//er,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
on Scottish history and also on U.T. on Sir Walter Scott. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er, I became active in fund-raising,
and our target was to raise two million for a Scottish chair
//at Guelph.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
And we've pretty well done that now, er,
I had very good people came on board, and er men and women who are hard-workers,
//who// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
were mainly Scots. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
But because of that er yes, I've read about the Scot
//coming to Canada, yes I've read about the contribution, yeah.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And er there's er colloquiums er in the Spring and in the Fall at Guelph. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And er because of that er there there's a great deal of literature comes out of
//these colloquiums and er,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
they were guided towards it, the library of course seeds purposely
//that type of literature.// |
| F1189 |
//mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And er if you have time while you're here, you should go to Guelph.
It is the most marvellous collection of Scottish documents outside of Scotland. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
We had a professor, who's dead now, Professor Stanford Reid.
He would go to the sale rooms in Edinburgh and Glasgow and when no-one was interested he was picking up stuff for very little money,
//and bringing it back to Canada.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
Now they don't do that. Suddenly Scotland's aware of this aspect in legalities known as intellectual property,
//and we should be hanging on to that stuff.// |
| F1189 |
//Indeed, mmhm [laugh] yes.// |
| M1202 |
I tried er, I was a friend of Tom Howarth,
er, knew Tom for about twenty-five years. Tom was the disciple of Charles Rennie Mackintosh. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I have sat in Tom's apartment, in a Mackintosh chair, not not er, what did they call it, they had a name for it, er copies were made. |
| F1189 |
Facsimile
//type of thing?// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, yes, but they had a name, they called it, er like//
//faux, faux Mackintosh or something. That wasn't the name, but anyway.// |
| F1189 |
//Reproduction, yeah, mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I've sat in an original chair made by Charles Rennie Mackintosh and had tea with Tom and
//all this, and// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
drank a Scotch and what-not, er he had a marvellous collection of drawings, paintings and artefacts |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And of course er I wanted to house Tom at Guelph University with that collection,
//and I worked towards that.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
But the problem was we were going through a bad time with universities in Canada at that time.
And there was no money.
It's a common complaint, any seats of learning, it's the same all around the world, not here, not only here, I mean.
But at any rate erm, that didn't happen. Tom ended up er having it sold off
//at Sotheby's.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//And that collection went all over the world.//
Great chunks of it went to Japan.
Tom, I think he got, I think he got four million pounds for the collection, you know?
//And tha-,// |
| F1189 |
//That's not a small sum.//
//Mm, impressive, mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//That was a long time ago too, which makes it even more of an amount than would be today.//
Er, he was a marvellous man, Howarth, he had the chair of architecture at Glasgow, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And he had the chair of architecture at U.T. when he came here. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Very creative man, er, here again you have this strange dichotomy. This is an Englishman. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And he champions Mackintosh.
He wrote one of the best bibles on Mackintosh.
He saw Mackintosh as a Scottish Frank Lloyd Wright. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And he had faith in him when nobody else had.
He would go to offices where they were throwing out drawings, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and he would go to the trashcans afterwards, and rescue these original drawings by Mackintosh.
This is the sort of stuff he had in his
//collection.// |
| F1189 |
//Well thank goodness for that, uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
It was marvellous, you know, and er to be exposed to this and experience this, you know, was wonderful. |
| F1189 |
Now what age were you when you left school,
Harry? |
| M1202 |
Er, well I left school when I was er sixteen.
And then I went to er the er Royal College of Science and Technology,
and I took electrical engineering,
//and physics.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And er I then became involved in a very esoteric period
//in my life.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
//Now that that college, was that in in Scotland?// |
| M1202 |
//Erm...//
Well yes, it was the University of Strathclyde. |
| F1189 |
Ah.
Of course, yeah.
//Forgive me. [laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//Yeah, oh yes, it//
it was always a very famous school er because er when erm the proprietors of the shipyards
//mainly// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//family concerns that built these yards,//
they were conscious that they needed a constant flow of technically
//proficient people.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
So they gave a lot of money, these men, it was an investment, let's face it, and it paid off.
And they founded er the Royal College of Science and
//Technology.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And of course er in engineering training it was one of the finest
//schools in the world.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
There's not enough, to my mind, has been written about the Clyde |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and what it did. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
You know, it was an amazing record, I mean about a quarter of the world's engine power
//came from there.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Er the tonnages that were produced, millions of tons of shipping,
in every harbour in the world, all over the planet.
The miracles that went down that river. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
The product of pure genius |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
in physics and engineering, and beauty.
Stuff that left a mark on the soul. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
These great Cunarders.
These lovely vessels that I worked on for Canadian Pacific. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
The Empress of Scotland, the Empress of Britain, the Empress of France. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Lovely graceful hulls.
I'm talking fairly large ships for that time.
Lovely white hulls of of coloured funnels sailing down the Clyde. |
| F1189 |
Oh you've captured the romance of it, Harry.
//[laugh] Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//I tell you! These hardened riveters and platers,//
who were in the pubs on Friday night, every Friday night,
these hard, tough men would stand and watch these things leave, that they had created, with tears running down their cheeks. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
You know?
Where's Hollywood?
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//Yes, indeed. [laugh]//
//[laugh] It is a heroic story, yes, it is.// |
| M1202 |
//I mean there's a story, it's an amazing story, you know?//
And to have come from this, and be... you know, I always said er to my cousins in Scotland, er the Clyde was my cradle. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
It it really was. |
| F1189 |
Is that what influenced your decision to study at the Royal College then? |
| M1202 |
Yes, oh yes, er,
I was born by the water, I mean I |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I learned to sail on the Clyde,
//I er// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
I'm still a sailor to this day.
I er I enjoy the sea, I enjoy the lore of ships,
//the history of ships,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
and erm yes, of course, I saw these lovely things being created, you know. I was born with the sound of hammers
//in my ears, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
That whole area of Govan, you could hear the hammers clanking as these things took shape.
You'd walk by buildings and as you came to a building there was a gap in one building er to the other, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
and er through that gap you would see these forms rising,
bows and sterns,
//and funnels.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And of course it attracted me and I wanted to know more about it, so er I went er and took er the exams for that purpose, er.
I joined a a shipyard by the name of the Fairfield Shipbuilding and Engineering Company. |
| F1189 |
Was that when you'd come out of studying then? |
| M1202 |
No, no, it was at the same time,
//er,// |
| F1189 |
//Right, I see.// |
| M1202 |
I was going to night-school,
//and there was day-release as well, er,// |
| F1189 |
//I see.//
//So it was like an apprenticeship?// |
| M1202 |
//but er, it//
yes, yes it really was, that's what it was. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And it was a, it was a dual exposure, you know, you were doing the technical stuff during the day and you were doing the technical stuff at night. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
But the stuff at night was related to what you were doing during the day,
//you know, er.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
And what was the qualification
//you got?// |
| M1202 |
//You became an engineer.//
Erm,
//I be- I be-// |
| F1189 |
//Are you t-// |
| M1202 |
became more involved in physics than anything else, er and that was because of, when I came here, er, I had been doing er complex, really complex electrical systems on ships and warships, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I was in the naval design office at Fairfields. We worked on destroyers and frigates. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Er, at this time, it was the beginning of the Cold War,
and er we were all afraid of Russia.
//you remember those days or at least you know of// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
//I know about them, yes, uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
//them, I should say, you know about them.//
Sorry, forgetting my age there.
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
And erm looking at what was happening in the world and being afraid of Russia, er
the main element er in a lot of the work was the development of anti-submarine warfare.
And er been working on a device which had been developed at the end of the Second World War, but by the time things had come to a head there was no longer any need
//for it, cause, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
What the one phrase, that one funny comedian said? "Suddenly peace broke out."
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
So so we took this thing, it was called the squid,
//and er// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
there was a development whereby it was related to a hydraulic sword, and the bows of the destroyers, and these er things were no longer the cans of depth-charge thrown over the stern which you see in the Hollywood movies.
er these were projectiles in a three-barrelled cun-, er, gun, I should say, which fired ahead of the vessel.
That sort of stuff, er when I came to Canada I was like a fish out of water, cause I'd been, you know, working on stuff like this.
//Erm...// |
| F1189 |
//What age//
were you when you came to Canada? |
| M1202 |
I was twenty-five. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
//And did you come here as a a single man, Harry?// |
| M1202 |
//And er,//
yes, oh yes, I met my wife in Toronto, she's a Canadian girl, |
| F1189 |
Uh-huh. |
| M1202 |
born of British parents. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Er, but no er she always jokes that she was waiting at the bottom of
//the gangplank. [laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]//
Now what influenced that decision to to come here? |
| M1202 |
I came here with a friend, a close friend, his name was Jimmy Kirkwood. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And Jimmy was a bit of a genius, he was a he was a specialist in er ship design. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And he was pretty well a a mathematical genius,
//in my opinion.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
Was this someone you worked with
//in Scotland?// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, I worked closely with him, yeah, and he was//
//we were friends, we both had motorcycles and we'd go camping in the Highlands and stuff like that, at weekends.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
We came here together, and erm we were actually sitting with our elbows resting on the drawing boards at Fairfields, looking out into the yard, and it was raining. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And you know, silly things in life, Jimmy suddenly turned to me and said, "this is terrible, this weather", I said, "yes, it is, I wonder when it's gonna get some sun", you know, the usual things
//you say.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
He said "Let's go to Canada", I said "That's a good idea."
And that was it.
It started from that.
So we flew from Prestwick,
and the boys in the drawing office all came down to Prestwick,
and they took us on their shoulders out to the aircraft. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And it it was in those days, before terrorism, er you could walk out to the aircraft,
//not allowed today.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//And also canvas-covered er tunnels to the aircraft, that wasn't er part of the system then.//
//It was a boarding ladder leading up leading up to the door at the front of the aircraft.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And at the bottom of that they had placed a piper and he was playing
//"Will ye no come back again". [laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]//
//So was it usual// |
| M1202 |
//So...// |
| F1189 |
for people to fly, cause that'd be, what, nineteen fifty-seven, fifty-eight, sometime round about then?
//[inaudible] Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//No it wasn't. Most people crossed er by by liner, by ship.//
Yes, we were er a bit unusual in that regard.
//Er,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I guess we wanted to get here quickly.
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
//And how long did it take then?// |
| M1202 |
//[inaudible]//
Oh there again, it was er a different day.
It was a a four-engined Scandinavian airline system aircraft, props, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
not jet.
And er we had headwinds across the Atlantic. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
So we had to land at er Gander,
//that was my first touchdown in the New World, so to speak.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Er and er we refuelled there, and then we flew to New York, |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//landed there,//
and changed planes in New York, to American Airlines, and that flew up to Malton,
//or what, it was called Malton then.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
And that's Pearson International, in Canada.
And Pearson International which it was to become, a large complex airport -
//you've seen it -// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
that was two Nissan huts. |
| F1189 |
[laugh]
//Uh-huh uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
//That's all they were, when we landed.//
//That was the airport.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And I remember we came to er the Royal York Hotel, in Toronto,
we stayed there, and then erm that was a Fr-, a Friday night,
we both had positions, technical positions, in drawing
//offices// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
the following Wednesday, and we've never stopped working since. |
| F1189 |
So you arranged that in advance? |
| M1202 |
No, we came over cold-turkey. |
| F1189 |
Ah right.
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//We flew from Prestwick, without knowing a soul, without knowing anyone, and er our landlady was from Newfoundland,//
//and erm they were having a hard time with their two children, a boy and a girl.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Er they were going, they were er just entering grade thirteen, which was one of the high standards of high school.
//That was the senior O Levels.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm mm.// |
| M1202 |
And they were having a terrible time with trigonometry and algebra, and er and also English, er so Jimmy and I had nothing to do, we didn't know anybody, so we took them under our wing and... |
| F1189 |
Serendipity!
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//we schooled them at night.//
//and they got good marks, they passed.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
So we were quite chuffed about that, and so our landlady was really appreciative. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And she arranged a blind date for us,
//with two Canadian girls,// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
and one of them was to become my wife.
//[laugh] So.// |
| F1189 |
//Ah!//
You you had it all sewn up then, it sounds
//[inaudible] [laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//Oh just by accident, you know? It sounds as if it was//
by design, but it wasn't, you know?
But erm... |
| F1189 |
Now was it always Toronto you had set your sights on? |
| M1202 |
Yes, and from here I have travelled all over the world. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
And what were you allowed to bring with you
on that journey?
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//Och then you could go on board with an anvil if you wanted, you know, I mean it was [laugh]//
[inhale]
It was a very easy type of er journey
//then.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
Air travel was pleasant then.
//It was adventurous, it was filled with joy, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
The meals were fantastic,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Well I shouldn't say fantastic, but I'm comparing them to today.
Today you have a brown-bag special
//on an airline,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
and lots of airlines you get no meal
//at all, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
But no, you had a very good meal, and that was usually a two-course meal.
You had er oh two entrees I should say, and you would have er three courses, dessert, coffee and free bar, and stuff like this, you know? |
| F1189 |
It was glamorous?
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//It was glamorous, and the girls were//
beautifully dressed, stewardesses, you know?
//Aw, they still are well-dressed today, I don't mean that, but there's a sort of glamour to them now that is now gone, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
How much did that cost you, do you remember? |
| M1202 |
Oh my gosh.
We didn't get any assistance. We just went down and paid our
//money, you know, this assisted passage and stuff like that, we didn't do that.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Erm... |
| F1189 |
And did you need a visa then
//or did you just...? Mmhm mm.// |
| M1202 |
//No, no no, just a British passport, because you must remember, this was a British dominion.// |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//It was er, we didn't have a flag, there was no national flag.//
I mean
//we we didn't feel we changed countries at all because// |
| F1189 |
//Was the Union Jack, [inaudible], mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
there was so many Scots here already, and there was also a strong British tradition,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
So I slowly saw this country er change,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
I just wondered whether or not, because books matter to you, quite clearly, if you brought any with you from home
//in your luggage? Mm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, I I brought well-loved copies//
of Omar Khayyam's Rubaiyat, which had been given to me on one of my birthdays
//by my uncle,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
er a lovely copy of Burns,
//again it was awarded to me,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
er a couple of Scott's, I couldn't bring them all. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Erm there was a large collection of Stevenson we had and I had to leave it - that broke my heart.
Beautiful leather-bound copies. |
| F1189 |
Were they your own copies?
//Mm, right.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, they were, yeah.// |
| F1189 |
And where did you get them from? |
| M1202 |
They were er bought by my uncle or my father,
//you know, and er// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.//
Was Stevenson a particular favourite?
//Mmhm mmhmm.// |
| M1202 |
//Oh yes, yeah, "Treasure Island", ah,//
I read that so many times. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Gorgeous.
Used to [?]floor[/?] away
//on those, with flashlights under the pillow,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//you know?//
"Are you asleep yet?", [laugh]
//the cry would come. "Oh yes I am!" // |
| F1189 |
//Yes. [laugh]// |
| M1202 |
Oh not so long. I had another chapter of Stevenson to read before I slept,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
//And and the Burns, you said that was awarded to you?// |
| M1202 |
//Beautiful.// |
| F1189 |
What was that awarded
//for?// |
| M1202 |
//Oh I gave er I gave my first Immortal Memory when I was a young man.//
//And it was a// |
| F1189 |
//Uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
sort of contest.
//I can't remember the details now.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
//Mm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//And it wasn't a very expensive copy, but it was beloved by me, because of having received it that way.// |
| F1189 |
And did you read at all on that that momentous journey over here?
//Or was there too much excitement?// |
| M1202 |
//[inhale] Oh yes, I was reading about American politics,//
//trying to come to grips with it and understand it.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Er, I was... came involved very closely with the whole play-scene over here, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//American plays, you know,//
Faulkner.
//Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass", you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
Were these things you were familiar with before
//you came, or before you decided to come?// |
| M1202 |
//No, I, no.//
I hadn't done much
//American reading, I was// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
totally immersed in my country's literature. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And when I say my country, I mean Britain. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I mean er, my father would not allow me to become
//isolationist, in my thinking, or reading.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And of course the house was filled with works by er by other writers,
//by English writers, good British writers, Dickens of course, Thackeray, Milton, Byron.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
We were a very literate family. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And er
//it was a strength, really, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Reading was a very important thing for us, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
and our love of reading was inherited,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
Now, what about the straightforward emigrant literature?
I mean there was a good deal of that in terms of pamphlets and advice books.
Do you recall any of that? |
| M1202 |
It was very simple.
//It wasn't complex.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
I mean as I s- said already, I saw this country change, and it changed to a bureaucracy, which is frightening. |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//I loved it when I first came here, because I thought what a marvellous country, it's free of all sorts of these dos and don'ts, and then slowly they became accumulated.//
Er, no, the the literature on what the immigrant should do when he
//arrives was practically non-existent.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
It was catchers catch can,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And er |
| F1189 |
Was it difficult then, to to acclimatise to here? |
| M1202 |
Well, [exhale], I would say no,
//erm,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
for the same reason as I already said, that it was like changing
//Britains,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//you know, I was going from one Britain to another Britain, erm,//
that sounds silly to say that, but you know what I mean. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
//Mm. Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//There was a strong British influence here. It's now gone completely.//
Totally eradicated. I mean people like Pierre Elliot Trudeau saw to that. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
He made it harder to get a Scotsman to Canada than a Pakistani,
//you know, that literally did happen.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I'm not saying that in a derisive way, or a racist way, I just mean that that's how things offered. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And it was specifically done by Trudeau, I think, because he had a different vision of Canada. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er it was a it was a vision along francophone lines, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
whereas before, the visions of er the previous prime ministers had been along anglophone lines. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
That [?]definitely[/?], it was a watershed.
//He was a brilliant man, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mm.// |
| M1202 |
And erm I think he was a necessary prime minister
//for Canada at that time.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mm.// |
| M1202 |
Er and you can, you know, what's that phrase, [?]Paddy Dolan[/?] used it in an Immortal Memory in Glasgow in nineteen thirty-six.
He said about Burns, er, "We crucify them when they're alive, and we place a laurel leaf upon their head when they're dead." |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
That sums up what we do to great men,
//you know, and Trudeau was one of them.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
At any rate er, it did change, it changed dramatically, er, er Lester Pearson was the one who pioneered our flag,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And er |
| F1189 |
Now did you ever consider the United States? |
| M1202 |
No, you see, the thing is er I ended up working for the National Research
//Council,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
and we were involved with er the time of the missile crisis
//in Cuba.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And I was doing work er between Toronto or Ottawa, and er Dayton, Ohio.
//and that, the reason for that was Dayton, Ohio was the centre for er USAF, the United States Airforce.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Er, |
| F1189 |
So you stayed in engineering then?
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, oh it was all engineering. It was pure physics.//
//I was working on er microwave applications of er er gradations in linear effects in film and coatings.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Er, basically er they came to us er in Ottawa |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And they said er, these were er aerial reconnaissance film |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//in the bellies of, of bombers.//
Er that type of film er commercially people will not use to to, sizes. They're massive, they're thirty-six to forty-eight inches
//in width.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
And they're being er run through the system at high speed.
//The bomber makes a pass and they photograph things on the ground.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
They are [inaudible], they're looking down on it and they can see that, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
from that elevation only. They cannot see it from that, they can see it from plan elevation, not from the second or first elevation
//on the ground.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And so they came to us and they wanted to er the problem was that in the film, er, the stratification of the film they had across the the the width of it
they had a percentage of moisture which was varying. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
It was going up and down.
This er variance in the moisture content |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//was causing distortion in the film when it was developed.//
So they wanted to be able to reduce the moisture content er in a straight line instead of in a graph of er hyperboles going across the film.
So they wanted us to er er develop a chamber, a high-frequency chamber
which would reduce that moisture level to er one half percent across the entire width.
Well we took the problem, went back and worked our slide rules, this was the days before computers,
and we did some experimentations, which took us about
//oh a month or so.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And I went back down to Dayton and I told them that we had reduced it to one tenth of one percent,
instead of a half.
That is a massive difference. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And they were delighted because it meant that the thing to all intents and purposes was almost
//moisture-free// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
when it came through the guide, the wave guide.
We built the wave guide, we supplied the technology.
This technology was developed by Canadian Patents and
//Developments Limited, in Ottawa.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
The US couldn't copy it. It was under patent protection.
So we didn't know what we were working on.
It was a hush-hush project.
And er it was seven years later I found out that we had helped to spot the missiles in Cuba. |
| F1189 |
Mm mmhm. |
| M1202 |
That was that day that er the American envoy went to the desk of Molotov, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
in the United Nations and he said "You're a damned liar, these are not er er grain silos, these are missiles." |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Because that's what the Russians were saying, they were grain silos, you know? The Cubans were saying this too. |
| F1189 |
So that's a Canadian part in that whole
//story, really, uh-huh yes.// |
| M1202 |
//Oh yes, Canada played a, well she//
//The Candarm, the space arm, that was developed here.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//They always downplay what we do.//
The reason I'm happy here is it's, I've changed sides
//in the Atlantic.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
But the plot is still the same. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
//And do you feel-. [laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//It's it's, Canada versus the US is similar to Scotland versus England.//
//A very same scenario in many-. I'm not being tongue in cheek here.// |
| F1189 |
//It does seem that way. Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I'm trying to be literal. |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//And there are many examples where you can find this, you know?//
//Er...// |
| F1189 |
//And do you feel Canadian then?//
Or h-, how do you feel your identity, how would you
//describe it now?// |
| M1202 |
//Oh that- that's a hard question to answer.//
For so many years I've felt I was a Scot. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er knew I was a Scot, let's put it that way.
But no I can honestly say now that after all thes-, I've been here longer than you have lived.
Erm, no I am a Canadian. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
I'm a Scots Canadian, really.
//That's...// |
| F1189 |
//Right.//
So that, that's a very multicultural label then. |
| M1202 |
Most people do have a
//multicultural label here.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And that is, they're allowed
//that label.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mm.// |
| M1202 |
You're not allowed that in the States. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
You put your hand over your heart and you salute Old Glory as she's being
//taken down at night,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
er when Taps are playing. Er you are an American. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
You're not a Scottish American, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//an Armenian American,//
you are an American.
Here you're a Scots Canadian, or an Armenian Canadian. That's the difference.
//And Canada is a more liberal society in that regard, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
They don't deman- demand this of you.
But, you know, there's always a good side and bad side to everything.
And there is a bad side to this multiculturalism here. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
It's now so dense and so so prolific that er we have run into problems. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
We have run al-, almost run into clashes, but not quite. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Er considering what we've done here, i.e. copied the States and that we've become a a a sort of bubbling stew
//of nations around the world,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
they have done a remarkable job here. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
All in all it's a wonderful country to live in.
Really. |
| F1189 |
Now, you've been obviously in a job that must have taken up an awful lot of your time, as you've described it to me. |
| M1202 |
You mean today? |
| F1189 |
No.
//When you were a young man.// |
| M1202 |
//No, previous, mmhm yes, yes.// |
| F1189 |
And you got married too. |
| M1202 |
Yes. |
| F1189 |
And did you have children?
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//I had three daughters, yeah.//
//Yeah, yes it is, yeah.// |
| F1189 |
//Oh that's a handful for a start. [laugh]//
Did you have much time then for for leisure reading, aside from the reading you must have had to do to keep abreast of of your work? |
| M1202 |
Oh yes, yes, especially er especially poetry. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
Poetry is er it's such a wonderful way
//of encapsulating experience.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
//Mm mmhm mmhm mm.// |
| M1202 |
//You have very good prose, very lucid prose, very free-flowing, and some of the best historical writers that I've read do have that.//
Er, Jenkins is one of them
//that I mentioned.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Erm, but when it comes to poetry, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
the thing that takes your breath away is that in a few words |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//so much is said.//
It takes a page to say the same thing
//in prose.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
In poetry, three lines does it.
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
Now when you came here to Canada, then, you brought that legacy with you of of
//the classics of Scottish literature, mm?// |
| M1202 |
//I already had it, I already had it in my head, I mean//
//you know, again Burns, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
"But pleasures are like poppies spread |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
you seize the flow'r, it's bloom is shed. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Or like the snow fall on the river, a moment white then gone forever."
//I mean you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Nicely put, yeah. Uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
It would take you two pages to describe that, you know? |
| F1189 |
What about Canadian authors then? |
| M1202 |
Oh yes.
//Yes, I embraced them when I came here, yeah.// |
| F1189 |
//Did you encounter them when you first came? Did you?//
//Uh-huh mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yeah, because I was interested in their literature. I was interested in their literature because it was the literature of a nation that was in formation.// |
| F1189 |
Mmhm mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And that sparked ideas in me. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Erm, the one man I best remember is Marshall McLuhan, no not Marshall McLuhan, he was later, er McLellan. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Er the thing that entranced me and I I went to see it for myself just about a year later, I read a book of his collected
//essays, Canadian// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
writer, and he er describes the coming of fall to the mouth of the St Lawrence. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Absolutely beautiful prose.
Er he became a professor of English at er McGill,
//in Montreal and and taught, I I've met many who had been in his classes.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm mm.// |
| M1202 |
Said he was a wonderful person.
And I can well imagine he would be,
//cause er, or would have been,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
because er of the way he wrote.
//Er,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
That, the description of the fall in Canada |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
crystallised Canada
//for me.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And I went to see this marvellous display of colour later on
//with my wife,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And er it was spot-on,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Er, and you know I-I- I've, you know, delved into the history of the Hudson's Bay Company, you know?
The largest mercantile empire on the planet.
//Nothing has ever equalled it.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Run by Scots.//
And the way we got around it was marvellous. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Newman is one of the historians here.
//Peter Newman.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
He's written several books, er on history and on er politics.
And er he says er in in "Gentleman Company of Adventurers", that's the title
//of his work// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//on the Hudson's Bay Company.//
"Gentleman Company of Adventurers"
Those words that I've just said are the first words in the Charter of Rights given by Charles
//the Second to// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
the men who wanted to start this.
At any rate, this thing becomes a vast empire,
It's running for a hundred years. It's a pure cash cow. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And suddenly one of these dim-bulbs in London, a director of the company, gets the idea, "We should go over and inspect
//this.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
We've never been." This is after a hundred
//years.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
So they send this fellow off. He's really not very bright.
And erm he's at Moose Factory, I've been there, it's right up, very far north. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
It's not far from the Arctic Circle.
And erm he's in this vast trading hall, oh it's like a a church inside,
//it's so large.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And he's standing talking to this Scottish factor, these are the fellows that run
//the posts.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And he says to them "What's that crowd of men down there, at the end of the building, all huddled together?" |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And the Scot said, "Why sir, these are Indians."
"Indians?" "Yes."
"Real live Indians?" "Yes of course."
"I've never met one. Call them over."
So he selects the tallest, big hunched shouldered fellow,
all bangles and beads and buckskin and a feather in his hair,
the hair so black it's blue, the colour of a raven's wing,
big hooked nose, dark skin,
and he shouts out to him "Hey Macdonald, come on over here!"
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]//
//Now that's [laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//Oh we- we're very friendly people the Scots.//
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//that's a, it's a great story, and it alludes to a sensibility I think that might exist among Scots here, that that they have a stake, a particular stake in the foundation of//
//Canada. Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Oh very much so. We're very proud of it, and rightly so.//
//Yes, we're, well let's put it, I would say that we're quietly aware of it. We don't do a lot of shouting.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
There's so many others that have come from other countries here who have done a lot, but they haven't done a lot for Canada. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
I mean they've done a lot in their own countries. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And rightly so, they've been recognised for that. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
But erm no, there's no nation here, I can say honestly, that played the part that we played. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And the marvellous thing about it is that we're such a small country. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
I mean our high-water mark in population, what? Five point six million? |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
It's never been any higher. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
It's less now. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
Yes it is less. |
| M1202 |
One thing that might interest you, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
talking, you you mentioned what was it like when I left Glasgow.
In the emigration office that day, that week |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
when I left, forty thousand Scots left from that office. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Now I'm not saying they were all from Glasgow, but they came to
//Glasgow to er// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//visit the Canadian High Commission in Glasgow.//
//And that was when their paperwork was cleared.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And you had to get, you were talking about how complex it
//was, yes there was, I said there wasn't much, but there was a degree// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
of of attention paid. You had to have a medical,
//then you had// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//to have a passport and you had to have your form filled in.//
And you had to do that at the er er Canada House in Glasgow.
But forty thousand.
//Now they left, they left, they went to Australia, they went to New Zealand, but there was a large, a very large contingent came to Canada.// |
| F1189 |
//[inaudible] Mm mm.//
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And I was one of them. |
| F1189 |
Did you ever want to go home? |
| M1202 |
Oh yes, yeah, many times. |
| F1189 |
Were you homesick, to begin with?
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
//Terribly.//
//Yeah.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
But you resisted that? |
| M1202 |
Well I did, for force er of requirements, er, I was married, I
//had a Canadian wife,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mm.// |
| M1202 |
and then our first daughter came along, you know, and you know, you're like you're like a boxwood plant, you put down roots,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
Now, do you feel that the reading that you could do about home, or of Scottish authors, for example Burns, helped you in any way
//to do that?// |
| M1202 |
//Oh yes, yeah.//
Many texts did. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Erm, you hit a sore point there,
//er,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
as I think you can see, erm, the thing I missed was the high land. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
I came here to, this is rela- relatively flat. I learned later,
//going out to the// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Prairies that this is not flat at all, it's rolling countryside, the province of Ontario I mean.//
Er, the Prairies are so flat that there's a joke
//about them, they said that er// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
it's so flat that if your dog leaves home, you can see him leaving for three days.
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]//
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Then you run into the Rockies.//
Amazing.
Marvellous scenery.
//Much higher than Scotland.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
But, that being said, I still missed my ain folk,
//I missed the hills, I missed the glens,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I missed the mountains, oh yeah, terribly, terribly. |
| F1189 |
What about sort of landmarks, like, for example, Burns Night?
Now you'd obviously always been a part of that. |
| M1202 |
Mmhm. |
| F1189 |
We you able to replicate that?
//Yeah, mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, fully, completely.//
Oh more Burns dinners here than you can shake a stick at, you know? [laugh]
And all over the the country.
//Oh yeah.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.//
Did you join a Burns society
//when you came here?// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, I did, yeah, yeah.//
And I've given all the speeches. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm mmhm. |
| M1202 |
I'm a member of the Officers' Mess of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders |
| F1189 |
Mmhm mm. |
| M1202 |
And er, we run a Burns dinner there,
//which is excellent, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
Now that's one Scottish society. How early on did you join that? |
| M1202 |
The Argylls? |
| F1189 |
Yes, uh-huh. |
| M1202 |
Oh recently, eight years ago. |
| F1189 |
Right, so tha- that's more recently?
What about in the early, first decade
//you came here? Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Well I would go along to Burns suppers, you know, and eventually get to know people there.//
Erm, and er, that led to
//other things, you know,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
going going to er
//to sessions and erm,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//My involvement with the University of Guelph and the Scottish Studies group, that caused a lot of interactivity like that, you know?// |
| F1189 |
So did yo- you seek out Scottish organisation then?
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes I did, yes, initially yes, yeah.//
And er I enjoy being
//with them, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Er, going up to, I go to the spring colloquium and also the fall colloquium at Guelph, and |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
listen to Scottish papers,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Er, you become... Churchill put it very well,
because he had an American mother, as you know, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
and Scots become this, you become a child of the Atlantic. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
You know?
You find yourself in the strange dichotomy of being in Scotland, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
defending the US or
//Canada,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
and being in Canada and defending Scotland,
//if anyone criticises it.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//you know?//
//Because you're a...// |
| F1189 |
//Yeah.//
//Mm. You have divided loyalty.// |
| M1202 |
//you're caught between both worlds, you know. It's i-//
Yes, it's exactly the lot of the emigrant, you know? |
| F1189 |
Now, you did mention that you were once inclined to nationalism, Scottish nationalism,
//[inaudible], uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, initially, yes I was, yeah.// |
| F1189 |
When did you give up on that?
I take it you came over with those politics? |
| M1202 |
Yes, I did, I did, because my father was a nationalist.
//He was a,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
//Mmhm mm mm mm mm.// |
| M1202 |
//you know, an officer of the Crown, you know, and fought under the Union Jack, but he was, he wasn't a rabid nationalist, my father wasn't for, you know, beating drums on that basis,//
but he was er he was definitely er keen to see Scotland prosper
//along the lines of other nation states.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm mm.// |
| M1202 |
I feel because of our history, and because of what has happened, living north of a very acquisitive neighbour, and a neighbour that tried to give us quite a hard time, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
we took rather a long time to learn that er they wouldn't succeed any more than the Romans did. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And we were about one of the only ones that taught the Romans a lesson,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Er, you don't want to become too jingoistic
//about that, I mean that becomes cocky and that's not attractive.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I see Scotland as a modern nation state,
//standing on its own.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I'd like to see Scotland similar to Norway or Denmark. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
I believe she's walking down that road.
I thought, in my lifetime
//I would see it.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
but I don't think so. I think I'll be dead. |
| F1189 |
Now do you read the Scottish press?
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, from time to time. Not on a continuing basis, no.// |
| F1189 |
How do you get access to that? |
| M1202 |
Oh this- there's a very good chain here in fact,
//you know, it's sold here.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Newspapers are, you know, er quite international,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
And what about when you first came here, Harry, do you recall seeing things like the Sunday Post,
//or the Scotsman? [laugh] Uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
//Oh no, no, no no no no, I'm talking now.//
No, then you were completely isolated. |
| F1189 |
Uh-huh. |
| M1202 |
Then you didn't cross the Atlantic with the same regularity. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Er, my father died and of course I went over right
//away, erm.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
That sort of thing is an emergency for all families.
But no, you didn't have access to the British press. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
//Mmhm. So no-one sent it to you?// |
| M1202 |
//There was no internet, you know?//
//Oh yes, my mother, oh my mother would send me copies of the People's Friend, with little articles that she wanted me to see and stuff, and I loved that.// |
| F1189 |
//No-one [inaudible]? Mmhm mmhm uh-huh uh-huh mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And er she er had my father send me the odd copy,
//like// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
the Scottish Field magazine, I'd get that
//fairly regularly.// |
| F1189 |
//Uh-huh uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
And er, that sort of thing
//went on and off, you know? We had cousins and what, they would send over things, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
Remittances from home.
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//Mm? Sorry?//
//Messages from home, yeah, yeah, yeah.// |
| F1189 |
//Messages from home. Mm mmhm.//
And when did you first go back to Scotland? Cause I know you've been back many times. |
| M1202 |
Oh yes, yes, nineteen seventy-five was the most active year.
//I was er with the Canadian government then.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I was a commercial officer with er the er International Marketing Department. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And I took trade missions out all over the
//world.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And many to to Scotland. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
So in nineteen seventy-five, I I crossed over fifty times in the one year. |
| F1189 |
Oh mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Fifty times. I was practically not at home
//at all.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
It quite a strain on my marriage actually. Er, my wife is made of good, good stock,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]//
Now on your journeying, and you clearly do travel a good deal, |
| M1202 |
Yes. |
| F1189 |
is is taking a book along with you part of that
//that aspect of your life?// |
| M1202 |
//Oh yes, oh,//
//it's like a walking-stick for me, yeah.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, er,//
I'm sorry if I've forgotten to pack it, so
//to speak, and I've// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//feel that at the other end, you know?// |
| F1189 |
And do you mostly read fiction or non-fiction? You've mentioned lots of biographies. |
| M1202 |
I mainly read history. |
| F1189 |
Right, uh-huh. |
| M1202 |
And politics.
//I'm fascinated by politics.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.//
And what about er non-fiction? |
| M1202 |
Not much. |
| F1189 |
Right, uh-huh. |
| M1202 |
I read the odd... My wife loves
//er// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
non-fiction. She's an avid reader. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Er, she's a prodigious reader,
//is the is the term.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And er it's mainly all fiction. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm mmhm. |
| M1202 |
But she taught me - er, I was sort of pooh-poohing that for a period -
but she taught me that a good steady diet of fiction, if it's well written, |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
is expanding your knowledge as well as, say,
//a book on history or politics,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
because it's expanding your knowledge of the human heart,
and er it's expanding your knowledge of [inaudible], you know, er
//mores, miscalculations of humanity, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
Now you mentioned your great love of Stevenson and great storytellers like that,
what is it do you think that's made you move away from from fiction
//in your adult life?// |
| M1202 |
//[inhale]//
I think I'm guilty of adhering to fiction er because it was Scottish fiction. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
I shouldn't say that, it wasn't Scottish fiction, "Treasure Island" isn't Scottish fiction,
//neither is "Travels with a Donkey", which was one of my favourites of Stevenson.// |
| F1189 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
It's because it was written by a Scottish writer. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm mmhm. |
| M1202 |
It's because I championed that writer.
//I think he's great.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I mean, his most compelling and revolutionary work was "Jekyll and Hyde". |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
I mean there's been volumes written about that one book
//that he wrote.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I mean it's pure Freudian psychology.
We're filled with it as human beings.
We're all Jekyll and Hydes, every one of us. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And for him to explore that and reveal that to us at that time, you know,
//I just loved that stuff, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
So I did, I I I must correct myself, I did, past tense, read a lot of
//fiction.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
//Mm. [laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//And you pointed that out, thank you.//
But er... |
| F1189 |
But not now? |
| M1202 |
Not now, I don't-. Yo- you must remember too that the publishing world has undergone a tremendous change. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
There's now a steady volume of works, I mean it's a Niagara of books.
And they're constantly coming out. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And you tend to latch on to the one favourite subject, because er then it becomes sequential, you know?
I am reading right now about the tremendous amount of development took place in the US during the Kennedy years, of er of the RAND Corporation. |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
And the RAND Corporation, if you successively read books about it, you realise that they govern our lives. |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//Mm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//And that sounds dramatic, but it's true.//
There's many things we do that we're unconscious of, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
and RAND is responsible for that. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And there is a wonderful book, that's just been recently written, by a US author, on the RAND Corporation.
It's called "Gentlemen of Reason", |
| F1189 |
Mm. |
| M1202 |
and I recommend it to you. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
//It'll shock you. Knock your socks off! [laugh]// |
| F1189 |
Now, because I know you're pressed for time today, |
| M1202 |
Yes,
//unfortunately.// |
| F1189 |
//although I could//
speak to you for an awful lot longer, Harry,
I think I'm probably going to to wind up now,
so I've only got a couple more questions.
And one is that you live in a country, now you've mentioned the the anglophone aspect of it and the francophone aspect, where there are two official languages, erm do you speak French, for example? |
| M1202 |
I speak it very slightly.
//Er, more by a process of er osmosis than anything else.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
We're surrounded by it
//here as you know.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//And er I can get my way through the pronunciations quite easily, because of, you know, the familiarity with it, by by outside impression.//
//Er, but no, I do not speak the language. Nor can I write it at all, no.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
And you wouldn't read it then?
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Er no, my great er, you've touched on another vein, er one of my favourites is "Remembrance of Things Past" by Proust.// |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
I'd love to read that in the original, because it's so good in translation. Have you read it? |
| F1189 |
[inhale] I must, shame-faced here, no I haven't. [laugh]
//I'm saving it for my retirement. [laugh] Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Get it! It's marvellous. It's the reflections of an individual//
//th-.// |
| F1189 |
//What age were you, can I ask, when, when you read Proust?// |
| M1202 |
Oh I just finished it er last winter.
//It's three volumes.// |
| F1189 |
//Right, uh-huh uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
Er... |
| F1189 |
So it sounds like you're challenging yourself
//with with your reading?// |
| M1202 |
//I try to, I try to.//
//And I love er Guy de Maupassant,// |
| F1189 |
//Mm.//
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//er er,//
//Molière, oh I'd love to read them in the original French.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I've I've s-, you know how you have these silly dreams
//which don't fit in with// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
the time factor, cause I don't know how much time I've got left now.
I'm seventy-five.
Erm, I'd love to retire and study French, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
to the point where I could become conversational, or at least adept at reading,
//you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
Well that's that's another challenge you could er er rise
//to. [laugh] Uh-huh uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
//No, I've read many Fren- many French authors, and I love some of the Quebec authors too.//
//And that, some of that is fiction, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Uh-huh uh-huh.//
Now that is my last question, you know, current Canadian authors, I mean, some of them are quite big on the world literary stage,
//erm people like Margaret Atwood.// |
| M1202 |
//Mmhm.//
Read her. Yeah.
//Mmhm yeah yeah.// |
| F1189 |
//You have? Uh-huh uh-huh.//
Would that be something you would read, say, on holiday? |
| M1202 |
Yes, and also because of my wife. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Again it's fiction,
//er,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
and I've read it because it's Margaret Atwood.
//I mean,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
suddenly this name gets repeated throughout the years,
//and she becomes noteworthy,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
and she becomes aw-, rewarded,
//I should say, by the Canadian literary public,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
and you say "well, my gosh, I'd better read this woman",
//you know, by virtue of the fact that// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
she's obviously of some worth.
//And it's in that regard that I've read a couple of her books.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
Erm, yes a very very good and sensible author.
I lo-, I love the Canadian humour too, Stephen Leacock, have you read any of his stuff? |
| F1189 |
No, but strangely enough he's come up in the reading biographies of a couple of Scots,
//in Scotland, as a...// |
| M1202 |
//Mm mmhm yeah, yeah.// |
| F1189 |
he he appealed to Scots at som-,
//in some way. [laugh] Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Oh yes, yes, and the funny thing is that Scots go away//
//and stay overseas and get influenced by other cultures and then come back and produce these tremendous Scottish works.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//I mean Lewis Grassic Gibbon did that, he was in the RAF and he served in Persia and er he came back and produced these marvellous things.//
He wrote a book on the Inca |
| F1189 |
Mmhm.
//Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//which he lectured on all across the US and people thought he was an archaeologist, it was so beautifully written and so detailed,//
//You should get it, it's ma-, if you haven't, If you have read it, I'm sorry. Have you?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
N-, er no.
//No. Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//Er, I didn't think so from the expression on your face when I was speaking about it.//
Er, just incredible his grasp of this complex civilisation. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And he writes so well about it that people swore that he, as a lecturer in the States, had visited those lands, |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
had inspected the archaeology. He had never been there. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm mmhm.
Imagination, great. |
| M1202 |
Exactly, yeah. |
| F1189 |
Now what about contemporary Scottish authors, who've also done well in sort of literary terms? |
| M1202 |
I read one or two of them.
And again it was fiction.
Erm, friends mainly, I mean er Professor Ted Cowan at Glasgow University, a close friend for many years. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm? |
| M1202 |
In fact it was he that got me going on the idea of the Scottish Studies Foundation. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
It wasn't me that just sat down and had this bright bulb turn on in my head.
Er, it was erm it was Ted Cowan.
He said "You know, we can't do much inside academe, because budgets are
//restrained". He says "We need someone outside, like yourself,// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
//He's a very persuasive man.// |
| M1202 |
//to do something."//
//Oh yes he is, yes he is, he's a very charming man.// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh] Uh-huh.// |
| M1202 |
I call him the Viking.
//Yeah.// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]// |
| M1202 |
When I first met him he looked like a Viking, with
//the// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
big red beard and red hair.
//A nice fellow, I like Ted.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.//
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
And er, no we got the
//Studies Foundation going together.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
So what about in terms of Scottish fiction just now. Are yo- you engaged with that at all?
//Mm.// |
| M1202 |
//Don't get a lot of it over here.//
Er, it's it's probably on the shelves but you'd have to look
//for it, you know?// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And we don't wave the flag for other authors; we're too busy waving the flags for our own.
You must remember, again I mentioned this earlier on. We're a nation in formation. |
| F1189 |
Mm.
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
//We're not really finished yet. We're like//
the the potter's er clay.
//We're still being moulded.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
And I I don't mean that in an insulting way to Canada. It's true.
She's a young nation. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
I mean, look at where we've come from. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Our first king goes back, what, Fergus the First, before the time of written
//records.// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
This was before the Picts even, you know? |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
Before Saint Columba, you know? |
| F1189 |
So have you read any of the recent great national histories, say, the one by Professor Devine
//"The Scottish Nation"?// |
| M1202 |
//Yes, yes, I read it.//
And Smout's. I don't agree with Smout's, but I've read it. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
I've read Cowan's book on Scotland. |
| F1189 |
Mmhm. |
| M1202 |
I've read Barbour on Bruce.
//Oh I'm// |
| F1189 |
//Mmhm.// |
| M1202 |
I- I'm pretty comfortable with my reading, about the histories.
Er, there's always some bright fellows turning out more, you, er you have to try and keep up, you know. It's like swimming, you know, you can't stop.
//[laugh]// |
| F1189 |
//[laugh]//
Oh I think we'll we'll close it there because that was a l-, a nice closing comment.
Can I thank you very very much, Harry, for the time that you've given me this morning.
//And I've enjoyed it very...// |
| M1202 |
//You're welcome, you're welcome. I've enjoyed it too. Thank you.// |
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