Document 1689

M1191 [recording is stopped for a break]

F1189 I've turned the recorder on again, //Stan.//

M1191 //Yeah, yeah, yeah.//

F1189 And could I ask you to go back a wee bit, //and//

M1191 //Yeah, certainly.//

F1189 and tell me again about your first impressions of //New-New Zealand when you arrived here.//

M1191 //[inaudible] yes, yes, yeah.// You can have that one.

F1189 Oh thank you. Stan's just given me a copy of a-an article he wrote on er his war-time experiences erm during the Battle of the Atlantic. That's very kind of you. Thank you very much. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Well it was written primarily for my granddaughters so that they er would not have any false impressions of er war-time events,// //it's exactly the truth, no gloss, nothing's been glossed over.//

F1189 //What actually happened. Uh-huh uh-huh mm mmhm mmhm.// Yes. Now having come through all that and arriving in New Zealand in nineteen //fifty-one,//

M1191 //Fifty-one.//

F1189 and then coming back again in nineteen fifty-two, //is that right, to get married, uh-huh. Erm//

M1191 //Yes, that's right, yes, to get married, yes.//

F1189 what were your impressions of it at that time, and how did people respond to you as a Scot? //[cough]//

M1191 //Erm// //very well, y-y-you-you//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 Y-you're a visitor to the country, and er in New Zealand we find people //very easy to talk to.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //Erm, the values we had, the Scottish values we found were very much the same// //here.//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 Er, I've mentioned that I had two aunts, //my mother's two sisters,//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 in Auckland, I met with them. One of them was a widow, //er//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 the other's husband was still alive at that time, a retired //policeman.//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 And er I got on exceptionally well with these families, //very lovely to see them.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 And in various places round I caught up with er again people with Scottish descent.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Er in fact in er New Plymouth er there was a doctor there who had been, believe it or not, my father's patrol leader in Scouts in //Ardrossan in nineteen hundred and nine.//

F1189 //[exhale] Uh-huh.// It's a small world. //Mm.//

M1191 //A small small world.// And they had kept in touch over the years,

F1189 Mm. //Mm.//

M1191 //and he he was Doctor Brown, Donnie Brown he was known as.// And he had actually er kept in touch with the Scottish side of the family, //parents and so forth.//


M1191 And they came home quite regularly to visit,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 so his two daughters were known to me from the ni- mid nineteen thirties.

F1189 Uh-huh uh-huh.

M1191 Er and they, one of them died a couple of years ago, but they were like sisters to me, those two //girls,//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 and I'd a card from the other one just a few weeks ago, er looking forward to seeing me, //er//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 etcetera, what was happening, just all the the gossipy bits and pieces, family gossip.

F1189 Mmhm. //Yes, uh-huh. So//

M1191 //That kind of thing. So l-.// //These were good impressions. I-//

F1189 //so these were good impressions then you had, uh-huh. Did you// did you suffer at all from any of the the negative //stereotypes of Scots? Mm.//

M1191 //No, I found it, there were silly little things,// when we were getting married and we started to look for a house //to rent to start with,//

F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //er and then getting furniture together,// and er reading the newspaper columns, the for sale columns, er you'd strike a phrase, er where we'd say, there's someone selling a //bookcase//

F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //or a bed or something like this,// "first to see must buy".

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 And you look at that and that is a command, isn't it? //"Must buy".//

F1189 //Mm yeah.//

M1191 But it doesn't mean that of course in New Zealand,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 it's just that the first person who sees it, oh he'll be so enthralled with it he will buy. //But little phrases like that, and I get all//

F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh. Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 sorts of the, bits and pieces, another one was er "ladies a plate". //"Ladies a plate". That's a very common one in New Zealand of yesteryear, and to a degree today.//

F1189 //Oh, not heard that one. Mm.//

M1191 Er a function, a community function or friends [inaudible], er in the notice there, "ladies a plate". Now the ladies took along a plate of fo-, either eh //edibles for supper, or whatever.//

F1189 //Ah right uh-huh uh-huh.// //Mmhm mm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //That thing and sometimes the men put a gold er coin in, or whatever it was, there were no gold coins then.// But this was a common thing. //But this "ladies a plate", I scratched my head over that, and there were lots of other small small things.//

F1189 //Mmhm [laugh] uh-huh mmhm.//

M1191 And I caused a lot of hilarity sometimes //my my future mother-in-law and my wife-to-be were all "fancy not knowing that", you know, silly little things.//

F1189 //[laugh] [laugh] Uh-huh.// //Uh-huh uh-huh mmhm.//

M1191 //Er this took a little bit of getting used to in itself.// And I must admit that my accent was very very broad //at that time.//

F1189 //Mm mm.//

M1191 Er, and I er cu-, got on some time oh a year or two after I arrived and settled in, er involved in national radio,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 er with er the Scouts er the Scout session, //I was involved with the Scout session that was er//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 half an hour a month, and it was quite good, but I also ran a, did a series of the old er "Children in Scotland". //And this was just about Christmas in Scotland, and Hogmanay was then the, Christmas time even in my younger days was not even a public//

F1189 //Really? Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 //holiday in some parts of Scotland.// There's little things and //Christmas trees and... Yes, did this on radio.//

F1189 //And you did, you did that on the radio?//

M1191 But I, when I heard it, I was aghast, it was so so broad.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 So probably at that stage I had to turn round and er r-relearn how to speak //the Q- the King's English. [laugh]//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm. [laugh]// //Now how did that come your way, that that chance to tell those stories on the radio?//

M1191 //Mm. [throat]// Erm, //can't think where it was now.//

F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Probably through the Scout session, the broadcasting people.// And the er the young lady who was doing the Children's Hour at that time, er was er, she was from Plymouth, //and her father had been a sailor, and er her husband was a a cook//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mm.//

M1191 //here,// in the hospital,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 I think, we got to know the family quite well, etcetera etcetera.

F1189 So, so were these your own stories //that you made up? Right, uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yes, yeah, I made the stories up, yes.// //Odd little things, but this [inaudible] so whatever//

F1189 //erm mmhm uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// //And are holidays like that//

M1191 //[inaudible].//

F1189 celebrated differently here? //Mm.//

M1191 //Er to a degree, yes, there's much more er going away// //er//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 the isl-, what's it called, Cribs in the North Island, //or Baches in the south, in in the north, and Cribs in the south, the holiday homes, [inaudible], just a little simple shed or a very very simple house.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm.

M1191 and the family go there for weekends.

F1189 Mm. //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //And this was, everyone would go away, for a holiday weekend or a holiday period.// //And this was just so different in Scotland where a holiday meant people congregated in cities//

F1189 //Yeah.// Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //to be entertained en masse.// //But here people s- either went out, get away from the crowd.//

F1189 //Mmhm.// A-and why do you think that is? Do you think it's the seasonal difference or...?

M1191 Er, it's er could be seasonal in some [?]division[/?], er, but I think it's just being on your own,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 doing your own thing. Er, my late mother-in-law had a lovely little cottage er with an acre of ground. //And er//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 we spent our honeymoon there, it was a delightful place.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 And it was just, I'm trying to think, a little township called Waitati,

F1189 Mm. //Mmhm.//

M1191 //just to the north of here, probably twenty-five miles to the north of here.// The only way to get in was by train.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 So you er told the train driver that you wanted to get off at Waitati.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 There was no station, no nothing. //But he slowed the train there, and you got off with your bags and bits and pieces, walked up to the crib.//

F1189 //He just stopped? [laugh] [cough] Uh-huh.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Er and families stayed there for lengthy periods over Christmas,// //er and children amuse themselves of course, wonderful playgrounds for these children.//


M1191 Er, it's become a usual way of life.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Er, we'v- //we-we never, no.//

F1189 //Do you know what I'm reminded of though? The Broons.// //And the and the But-and-Ben. [laugh] [cough]//

M1191 //The Broons, yes, yes, yes, it's the same thing. I get Broons [?]atlases[/?]// cartoons for many many years. //I kept the selection of Scottish cartoons way way back, yeah.//

F1189 //Did you? Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Di-did someone send them to you? [cough]//

M1191 //I'll get it for you before you leave. I think I must have cu-, I don't really know.// I can remember pasting them in a book you know, over the years. Some weird and wonderful ones.

F1189 Uh-huh uh-huh. //There are erm Scottish newspapers and magazines on sale here, or there certainly used to be.//

M1191 //Yeah. Yes, yes, there are here.// This is comparatively new.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Er, prior to this you'd wait for your local Scottish newspaper to be sent //by relatives or friends or whatever.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 But after a little while it ceases to interest //you.//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 You don't know the people who are referred to in a newspaper story, //or the events or what's led to it, or the outcome of it.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mm.//

M1191 So it becomes a, just a non-event.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 So that you very soon get away from reading what you call the local, //local daily paper.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.// Did that happen to you, //Stan? How quickly?//

M1191 //Yes, yes it did. Er, er,// //comparatively quickly, er, the first page many New Zealanders go to is the 'Hatches, matches and dispatches'.//

F1189 //Mm.// Mmhm. //Mm.//

M1191 //The births, deaths and marriages.// er and that's a that's a [?]key board[/?] in New Zealand for people who know lots of people within their community //and it's important that they know//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm mm.//

M1191 //who has gone and who has married, or children etcetera, this is all part of being a New Zealander.// //But in those days er, it was probably just so to keep you abreast of what was happening and the the wider scene.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //But it doesn't take long, er when you settle in a new place, when you read the local newspaper cover to cover, you've, you've arrived, you've settled in.// //You might as well have looked in it for the first month, two months, three months, but by the time you read your local paper, cover to cover, er and put it down, satis-satisfied with what you've read, you're a native.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //Yes, uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //You've arrived there.//

F1189 Were you ever homesick? //Mm mmhm mm mmhm mmhm mm.//

M1191 //No, no, because I had er but, been away from Scotland so long in those formative years, er that I had just no no thought of Scotland really, that was all there was to it.// //Yeah, with being at sea, and er//

F1189 //With being at sea? Mm mmhm.//

M1191 er, stay stay that last four months, the most boring four months of my life that I've spent

F1189 Mm. //Mm.//

M1191 //was the September to December, er nineteen fifty-one,//

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 when I did say to my mother, yes I'll stay //for Christmas, and didn't.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //You didn't! [laugh] Uh-huh mmhm.//

M1191 //But I I had an awful job entertaining myself during that time.//

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Er, then that's when it was highlighted that my friends had all gone.

F1189 Mm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //And that I knew nobody around the village, or people had gone and just just away, etcetera etcetera.// //And others had grown up and had small children. Mm?//

F1189 //Er, and so had they emigrated, Stan? Ha-had// //they...? Uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yes, some had emigrated, I suppose.//

F1189 Uh-huh.

M1191 Er, but er it was, it was a difficult period, l-looking back. I bought a car, I toured Scotland. //On many occasions I took my mother with me. We went, did Edinburgh for a week, or we went down to, down to Glasgow and did [inaudible].//

F1189 //Mm mm mmhm.// //Mm mm mmhm.//

M1191 //We did a lot of exploring, as it were, and to me it was my final look at Scotland.//

F1189 Mmhm. //So you sort of knew you were, you were going, yes uh-huh.//

M1191 //I knew I was going to want to... I wanted to go away.//

F1189 It must have been hard for your parents though, //and... mm.//

M1191 //Yes, well again, I'd been away for so long, you see, before then,//

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 so they'd been so used to me, just, I was just a letter-writer. //That was all it was.//

F1189 //[inhale]// I was going to ask you, did your parents write to you once

M1191 Yes, mmhm. //Oh yes, we were great correspondents.//

F1189 //you'd settled here? Mm.//

M1191 And yeah, in fact, the correspondence, I have er, I have all the letters from the lady of my, the love of my life,

F1189 Ah. //Uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //I've all the letters I sent to her and she kept all mine to hers.// I've got them stowed away in a box for my grandchildren.

F1189 Oh yes, they'll want //them, they will. Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yes yes, they'll like them. They can see that// //their granddad and grandma weren't all that staid. [laugh]//

F1189 //Mmhm. Yes. [laugh]// //Now, th-there is a//

M1191 //Yeah.//

F1189 A long history of there being a public library in in Dunedin, //erm,//

M1191 //Yes, oh yes, the// //Carnegie Library was there, and//

F1189 //you'll-. Yes, uh-huh.// //[sniff]//

M1191 //there was prior to that the Athenaeum,//

F1189 Mm.

M1191 which people rented books, //er//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 in fact I have a few copies of books that came from //the Athenaeum.//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 Er they were just two I picked up in a second-hand shop, not because of the Athenaeum, //because the content interested me.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //And I look for the Athenaeum rubber stamp inside it,// //and it was er//

F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 there before Carnegie, the Carnegie library. //Yes yes yes, yes, mm er,//

F1189 //Right, and that was a sub-subscription library I think, wasn't it? Mm.// //Mmhm uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //we were very lucky with Carnegie and all he did for er people in other countries, you know.//

F1189 Now, the old Carnegie library was in Moray Place, //am I right? Uh-huh.//

M1191 //That's right, yes, uh-huh.//

F1189 Do you remember the first time you you went in there?

M1191 Yes, it was very claustrophobic compared with Paisley library, terribly terribly tiny, and er you would probably inwardly say, "is this all there is?" You know?

F1189 Mmhm. //[laugh] Uh-huh.//

M1191 //But you didn't dare utter such a scathing remark, [laugh], you'd be tarred, you'd be tarred and feathered,// //but however,//

F1189 //Uh-huh.// //Uh-huh.//

M1191 //you you er, you learn to keep your thoughts to yourself, that kind of thing.//

F1189 Do you think you had to do that as a Scot? //Erm, mmhm mhmm.//

M1191 //No, no, you learn to see, you don't discuss, you don't discuss that, you don't discuss that.// //You live that kind of th-thing where you've you've been taught what not to do.//

F1189 //Mmhm mm mm.// So do you think that people would get fed up of you if you were always harking back to //what it was like in Scotland? Mmhm.//

M1191 //Yes, yes, people did. I I know I myself did, I// //I used to say to, you know, my late wife there, "I was talking to so-and-so today, she never gets over, she was homesick once, but she's been here thirty years here, what on earth's wrong with the woman?"//


M1191 You know, I, it's very scathing. //[inaudible] that, eh.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 But there was a lot of people who were like that, //just could not settle, and many of them went back.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm.

M1191 And I I used to think, the things that they missed, going back.

F1189 Mmhm. //Yes, uh-huh.//

M1191 //It's so very very difficult.//

F1189 Er, well anyone going back then would have been //going back to//

M1191 //Yes, yes, yes.// //Yes, it was very very much that way,//

F1189 //post-war austerity, wouldn't they? Uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 because I remember Glasgow was er in a very very poor shape //after the war years.//

F1189 //Mm, yes, uh-huh.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //The only [inaudible] thing was that er utility clothing was still being made and so,// //there was still ration for this, ration for that.//


M1191 And going home er you were able to take fresh meat sometimes //you know, you would buy some onboard ship or do whatever,//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 or er, but er //[exhale]//

F1189 //Anyway, yo-you-you joined Dunedin library then I// //take it, you did join? Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yes, yes, very early in the base, very early in the base.//

F1189 And what sort of things were you taking out of there //to begin with?//

M1191 //Er,// basically er travel, I suppose, I looked a lot at //travel, you know, I had travelled extensively.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 //Er, I was very interested in history and geography, as I still am.// Er, but just a good fact //rather than fiction story.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 Er, but my tastes changed over the years er as my interest widened //er in living in New Zealand,//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 until I mentioned gold, I took up gold panning, gold //fossicking as we call it here.//

F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Er, I was able to gather little bits and pieces of gold.// Er in fact er my children in London, their wedding rings are from granddad's fossicked gold.

F1189 Mmhm. So you never sold it then? //You kept it. Uh-huh.//

M1191 //No no, I never sold it, no no.// And my youngest granddaughter a couple of years ago, two or three years ago, was doing a school project on gold,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 so I was able to give her a little capsule, with the piece of //gold in it to take back to the class on Monday, and say "my granddad dug this gold out"//

F1189 //My goodness, that is something to take into the class! Uh-huh.// //Uh-huh [laugh] yes.//

M1191 //in that way, and that was something quite unique in the,// //in there. Oh yes yes yes, gold, yeah, yeah, yeah.//

F1189 //Well that would make you something of a-an exotic figure, the the gold speculator.// //Erm... mmhm.//

M1191 //But later on I came, in that gold fossicking period, I went through a phase of sea, sea stories,//

F1189 Mm.

M1191 er I used to groan but my son in growing up as a teenager was "Oh, I brought this home from the library for you, Dad", and it's another war-time //navy story, another war-time,//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 and you got fact mixed with fiction.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 And some days you just groaned at the the the fiction of it, you know, somebody trying to, you know, be clever //to write a story.//


M1191 Very very poor so... I went through that phase and er very soon learned to say thank goodness it's finished.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 But went on to local history then.

F1189 Right.

M1191 And then I became er very very involved with local //history.//

F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //Er, this was allied of course to the gold fossicking.// //Where did the old miners find their gold?//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 How did they find it? How did they get to this place? //What were the signs of gold, er visible signs?//


M1191 Er the lay of the land, the contours, what was happening? So you read very extensively //on things that//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 and you'll see from the bookcase you're looking at now, most of it is local //history//

F1189 //Mm.// //Yeah, and where would you get your reading for for that? You're right it would have to be//

M1191 //in there.// //Er//

F1189 //quite wide.// //Mm mmhm mmhm mm.//

M1191 //well yo-you'd go, the library have got wonderful resources, and I still use a lot of their resources,// //because the books are being written, er by the hundred always//

F1189 //Mmhm.// //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //it seems, on history now, old history.// And I have er er I'm friends with four, five published authors

F1189 Mm. //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 //here in the historical field.// //And er they've all been wonderful jobs of local history on particular facets of the the business there.//

F1189 //Mmhm mm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 So it's er //a growing thing. I have too, yes, I have too.//

F1189 //So you've made use, good use of that library over the years then, mm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //And er// I set out a project. The eh, the gold was found in eighteen sixty-one.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 A little place called er Gabriel's Gully,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 about what, forty-five, fifty miles from Dunedin here. And to get there you walked, or if you had a horse you took a horse //[?]with[/?],//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 and that was then [?]horses or you walked[/?]. Or you went [inaudible] trundle all your possessions in a wheelbarrow, all the way. Following on from there, the finds were quite rich, and it began to expand around that particular area. But more and more people came and er there were more and more duffer strikes as they called them, where there was just a little gold //and it petered out very quickly.//

F1189 //Mmhm mm.//

M1191 Er so miners started to go further afield. And by the time eighteen sixty-three came,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 they had branched out considerably in many many directions. And there was one area called the Dunstan. Now you possibly know the Dunstan as a range of mountains in Northumberland.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 They were given that name by the the [?]insurveyor[/?], //er who gave them the Dunstan mountains. They reminded him of home and this was what he called the Dunstan range.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mm mmhm.//

M1191 Now good gold, good solid gold was found in there, in the rivers, //in the banks, etcetera, the whole way right through there.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 Now to get to there, there was one way to get to there, that was to walk,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 a hundred and five miles, five and a half days' walking.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 There were no shops on the way, so everything you took you had to take, your food, and there was no shops up there, no nothing. It was just an area of er vast open //land.//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 Er, it had never been opened up for real civilisation. It was populated, probably, country as high as Scotland had a hundred //people in it.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //That was in those gold-rush days.// And there were people who had gone to open runs, //as they call them, station runs.//

F1189 //Mm mm mmhm.//

M1191 And they were running four, five, ten thousand sheep,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 because sheep, sheep runs. //Er, and people lived a very isolated life in these sheep runs.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 And some of the stories er that we still have today are wonderful //stories.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 They're real meat on the bones of a bare history, //otherwise these people.//

F1189 //Yes, uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 So the station around people soon discovered that they could sell a carcass of a sleepsheep, I think it was a pound for half //a sheep.//

F1189 //Mm.// //Uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //Cut it down the middle, and here's your half, here's that, and that goes there.// Er, and then they found that their sheep were being 'salvaged' in inverted commas, by the miners. //reappropriated, etcetera.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //So they put watchdogs on them and didn't allow them.// But to get there was er across [inaudible] mountain, no route, no nothing.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 And it became called the Mountain Trail.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Er, and in my gold fossicking days I became very interested //in this//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 there and started to look, to examine the history. And I've gathered a great deal of //history of that.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 I've been promising myself to write it for quite a long time, //but is hasn't happened yet.//

F1189 //Mm.// //So so this would be to write, bring together everything that you have read and found out? Uh-huh uh-huh mmhm.//

M1191 //But, there's no [inaudible] yes, yes, let me just// //if you don't mind leaving me for a second or two, then I'll just go and get something in my bag and show it to you.//

F1189 //No, it's okay.// //Now, erm//

M1191 //[inaudible]//

F1189 Stan's just brought me a, quite a large... //This is a copy of an original map is it, erm Stan? Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //But that's, yes, I got a copy from, erm I photographed the original.// //And I'm going to present this to them when I'm finished with it. They don't know that yet but er, that's part of it there.//

F1189 //Erm, mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Er and it's a map that was produced, [cough], and then sold to to these er //gold mining prospectors, yes, uh-huh erm//

M1191 //Yes, yes, exactly right, Jock Graham,// //a Scotsman, an enterprising Scot.//

F1189 //in eighteen sixty-two.// //Yes, indeed [laugh] uh-huh uh-huh. Uh-huh mmhm mm.//

M1191 //Yes, yes, and he was known as Red Coat, because when he took the mail to Gabriel's Gully down here//

F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //er he wore a red coat and he had a bugle, and when he came over the hill he blew his bugle to signify mail, and the bugle is still in the the museum there.//

F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm.//

M1191 //I don't know where his red coat went, but that's it.// //But this is nothing [?]genuine, he signed[/?] the red coat. Yeah.//

F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh.// And where did you come across this?

M1191 Well this is from the Settlers' Museum.

F1189 Right.

M1191 It's the one and only in //existence//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 and I got permission from them to to take a copy //because this was to be//

F1189 //To take a copy, right uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 the best of the [?]book bases[/?]. Now,

F1189 Uh-huh. //Mmhm mmhm mm mmhm mm.//

M1191 //This is the thing, you're coming up here, see from Dunedin? And you're just going across over here and up there like that. Now this is trackless waste.// //Nothing. Just a long way, a hundred and five miles,//

F1189 //And a long way? Yes, uh-huh mmhm.//

M1191 and it was just slog slog //slog slog.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 A lot of them just gave it up, came back again.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Er,

F1189 But those ones who didn't give it up,

M1191 Yep. //Yes, oh yes, they did very very well.//

F1189 //it could be very literative. Mm mmhm.// //Will I put this here?//

M1191 //Yes, just there, yep.// //So, yeah.//

F1189 //And we'll put it away later.// Now that's obviously something you

M1191 Yeah. //I'm very very interested in... I've done a lot of research on the thing,//

F1189 //you got really interested in? Mm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //the project, and er// I'm hopeful that I've got enough go left in me to do the the thing there.

F1189 I should just say too, this is a house where there is a book in every corner. [laugh] Erm, and you're a great collector, //Stan,//

M1191 //Yes.// //Well this is a selection of photographs of the Dunstan Trail, the mountain trail.//

F1189 //er, mm uh-huh. Uh-huh uh-huh.// //So you've gone out there and taken these photographs yourself,//

M1191 //I've gone and photographed the whole of the route.//

F1189 mmhm, er and annotated them, mmhm. Yes. That's a terrific record. //Mm.//

M1191 //Mm.// //Yeah, yeah, mmhm.//

F1189 //So so there's some basic reading that you did first of all to to get into this subject?// //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //And all the way through, I've walked the whole of it, I've photographed the whole of it.// There's the type of country you're looking at.

F1189 Yes, uh-huh. //Oh ah, mm.//

M1191 //That's what the miners saw when they climbed the hills.//

F1189 Erm and and Stan's just showing me a photograph here of a vast New Zealand sky.

M1191 Yeah.

F1189 Mm. erm taken from the hilltop above Rocklands Station on the Dunstan road, and this was the the the gold, //venturing gold.//

M1191 //This is what they called the Steep Pinch.// //Now the stagecoaches//


M1191 ran er three times a week,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 initially.

F1189 Mmhm. //Mm mm mmhm mmhm mmhm mhmm mhmm.//

M1191 //Now they had to take all the passengers out and they had to get down out the bottom, and push the coach up with the six horses up here, the Steep Pinch it was called.// And that's taken from the top when you're looking back on the top Pinch. //Just an endless sky.//

F1189 //Mm.// So I think, I-, the impression I get here is that you really became a New Zealander then. //Erm, by, uh-huh.//

M1191 //Very very much so. I've never changed my nationality as many people have.// But er I'm very very loyal to the //New Zealand ethics and way of life and er it's er//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Mm. Wa-was there anything particularly appealing about Dunedin then, er to you as a a Scot who //became a New Zealander?//

M1191 //[cough] Yes, there was because// Er, I I, to go back to the Scouting thing, I was introduced to my

F1189 Mm.

M1191 boys to be the night I arrived in Dunedin. and saw a lot of [?]her[/?] over the week's [?]succession[/?] because there was no work on the ship because of the //strike.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 Er we wrote after this, I was home and wrote and was coming back out again,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 but during that period of weeks and weeks, er, we spent a lot of time with lots of the other leaders

F1189 Mm.

M1191 er out at a camp outside called Waiora,

F1189 Mm. //Mmhm.//

M1191 //a Maori word 'health in life-giving stream'.// Now this is New-, the world's largest Scout camp. //Three and a half thousand acres of Scout camp.//

F1189 //[exhale] Is it? Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Now we bought that in nineteen forty-eight.// //And it's been to, into the Trust, and I've one of the trustees of it there.//


M1191 And that is today a very wonderful er place. We actually sold two-thirds of it

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 er funnily enough in part of the Maoris' er Treaty of Waitangi settlement //thing.//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 Er, and we've kept about a third of the area there. But kids can go there, camp to their hearts' delight,

F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //[?]new[/?] outside, do all the things, eleven miles from the centre of Dunedin city, and it's just a wonderful wonderful place.//

F1189 Now, the Scouting movement //er//

M1191 //Yeah.//

F1189 is a very British thing, //isn't it? Erm, [cough]//

M1191 //Very British, but again international,// //the whole thing.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mmhm mm mmhm.//

M1191 //And I have seen Scouting in most parts of the world now,// so I'm very privileged to have a background in //that, and I was able to bring a lot of that type of thing to New Zealand Scouting.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm. Right, I see. Uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //[inaudible] bring the thing on.// So as you see it's er it's an i-, an interest that //eh grows on you, the whole way through.//


M1191 and I still love wild, in a, in a couple of weeks' time, we go to get our annual, all Scouts have to get [inaudible] //Baden-Powell guild. There's about eighty of us.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //And we'll go out in a couple of weekends, and have a, enjoy the sunshine, sit there and have a barbecue, talk about old times, and go round the campsite looking at what the kids are doing today, and perhaps help them somewhere along the line,// //that kind of thing.//

F1189 //Now,// //that was, yes, uh-huh that was one//

M1191 //It's all part of it, uh.// //Yes, yeah. Mm.//

F1189 //organisation that you have joined, and you did mention to me, off the recording, the Burns clubs// //as well that you, erm.//

M1191 //Burns club, yes.// //Now it was a very very strong club when I came here, with about something like eight hundred members.//

F1189 //[cough] Mmhm mmhm mm mm.//

M1191 Er, and they had monthly concerts, //and they were splendid concerts with top artists.//

F1189 //Mmhm mm.//

M1191 Er, i-it had a very enviable place in //Dunedin history, the Burns club was a very powerful club.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 Er all mayors were part and //parcel of it, councillors,//


M1191 and er poor and prominent citizens. Er it was a very very much an in thing, //to be there, the Burns supper, the twenty-fifth January function, anything going like that.//


M1191 Now, there was one man driving it in those days, his name was Bill Oliver.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Er, and Bill er was very very involved with Alloway, the Alloway Burns //club and the Scottish side of things there.//


M1191 Now when he died, the [inaudible] [?]the thing there[/?], the club went back and back and //back.//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 Today I don't know anything about it, but I believe that it's very very small

F1189 Mm.

M1191 and struggling for existence.

F1189 W-were you ever a member, //Stan? You were a member? Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Yes I was a, I was a, I came back to Dunedin in forty-eight, in sixty-eight, and there were two things I wanted, I wanted to be master of a masonic lodge, and I wanted to be President of the Burns club.// //Well er, yeah, I managed the lodge one,//

F1189 //Right, well they are ambitions! [laugh] Uh-huh.//

M1191 but I didn't manage the er th-th- //the the Burns club one.//


M1191 It had gone gone gone gone, and er I just, I felt I was banging my head //against the door, not getting anywhere.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Now what sorts of things did the //Burns club sponsor?//

M1191 //They were just doing the same thing, old things,// //concerts, but the calibre had gone back.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Er the people [?]worked[/?] very hard with the committee to organise things, or do this or do that.// //Er whereas prior to that it was just a, a, the top club in the country, in the town.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mm mmhm.// //Yes. And were there public readings at all//

M1191 //Eh, cause...// //Oh yes, oh all the way through.//

F1189 //of Burns? Mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Very very much so. And er// //the the the old Scots, er the generation before me, and many of them First World War people,//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 er that were out here in various trades and occupations,

F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //they were the li- the lives behind the Burns club.// //And they did a marvellous job of the the Burns poems, recitations, the whole way through.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //There was always somebody coming up with something new to put on.// So many an artist er destined for er a major //career in theatre or song or whatever started off in the Burns club.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm, yes.// And I know you, you did go into //the entertainment industry for want of a better expression, er in the end yourself erm as a//

M1191 //Yes [inaudible] yes yes. Oh yes.//

F1189 a radio broadcaster //erm of//

M1191 //Yes, yeah.// //Actor, actor. Yes yes yes. But no, er no the inf- Burns has influenced an awful lot of people, I think,//

F1189 //er the weather, [laugh], an actor? Yes, erm, and quite a celebrity. Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 er and they [?]worthy[/?] the two books that came in the old Scots kist,

F1189 Mm. //Mm mm mmhm.//

M1191 //the Bible and the copy of Robert Burns.// It may well be true because the-there was a a very very devoted adherence, even in his earliest days, to er to Burns.

F1189 Mm mmhm.

M1191 We we read it in the newspaper columns, we see it in the newspaper columns that er things were reported there. The fellow who lived in this house after Burns

F1189 Mm. //Mm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //became President of the Burns club in eighteen ninety-two.// Er and when I was cleaning of these deceased estates, I found the original minute book

F1189 Mmhm. //[cough] Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //of the club with his er signature and all the the rest of it there.// //So it's quite unusual.//

F1189 //Do you think your membership of the Burns club// did influence in any way the kind of career that you've had?

M1191 Erm, yes probably it did, because what it gave me was a great deal of friendship.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 There was tremendous friendship

F1189 Mm. //Mm mmhm mmhm mm mmhm.//

M1191 //er in the club and the people in it, and it was very genuine.// So Mrs er Mclehone says, "Oh would you like to come up for supper today, or come for afternoon tea?" It was delightful. //It was social, people going out with each other, apart from the club nights.//


M1191 They saw what was going on.

F1189 And were these all other Scots? //Or were they New Zealanders with a Scots background? Mm mmhm.//

M1191 //Yes, no, they were a very good mixture between the two.// //Very good mixture between the two.//


M1191 Er, one of our millionaires, believe it or not, was a member of the club, old Sandy MacMillan.

F1189 Mm. //[laugh] Mm. [laugh]//

M1191 //Er and Sandy was a dour old Scot, who er never stopped clinking two coins together trying to make three out of it, you know?// [laugh] //But er he he was the treasurer of the Burns club,//

F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mmhm. Well a good job for him. [laugh] A good job for him. [laugh]//

M1191 //and left them a very, mm? Yeah yeah. So er// //He he was he quite a a delightful old fella.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mm mmhm.//

M1191 //[cough] And when I went to Invercargill, [cough] he said he was a board member of endless organisations and companies.// And he was er, on the board of the, what was called the Southland meat compa-, frozen meat company. //This was the big shipment of meat overseas.//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 Er and I'd set up my business in Invercargill.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Er and he knew I was coming there, so he always dropped in at morning tea,

F1189 Mmhm. //Right, so//

M1191 //for his morning tea.// //Yeah, social, yeah, that's right, yeah.//

F1189 //so so there's a social forum er but also could help you in business I imagine? Yeah.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //And er and my wife and Sandy got on well.// //"You come for a meal", and Sandy would always come for a meal, you know, that would be always eh,//


M1191 He was the biggest [inaudible] in creation but //he made mi-, he saved millions. [laugh]//

F1189 //[laugh]//

M1191 And today we have the central city area //where there are all, where the statues stand is MacMillan Terrace.//

F1189 //Mmhm mm mmhm.// //Yeah, uh-huh, right I see, uh-huh. But//

M1191 //He gifted that to the city as part of his career.//

F1189 what what do you feel about Burns yourself //erm and his work?//

M1191 //Erm,// a a great deal of pleasure that er I'm able to be part of it, to read it and to be part of it. And I feel a little closer to Burns because my family were Dumfries

F1189 Mm.

M1191 er and I know from holidays spent down there and my fa-, Burns was also a great, Burns, my father //was also a great fan of Burns.//

F1189 //Mm mm.//

M1191 And my father took me round all the... the house and all the places that //you know, the places that Burns had er visited during his Dumfries days.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //So I felt I knew quite a bit about it down there, and Burns himself.// Erm, I managed to get a Burns club started in Invercargill.

F1189 Right, uh-huh. //Mmhm uh-huh mmhm.//

M1191 //Er I was President there, but [inaudible] kind of shifted away to Hamilton and I don't think it lasted many many years// //[inaudible] something else. Yes, this is right.//

F1189 //Aw right, after after you went, uh-huh uh-huh.// //Erm, do you still read Burns?//

M1191 //No.// Oh yes.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Yes, it's there, there's always a a number two book at the bedside.

F1189 Mmhm mmhm.

M1191 And er there'll be something I'm reading, er and it could be a book of poems, but the the number two down below is always a book of Burns.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 And er

F1189 Have you got a favourite? I know that's a hard question.

M1191 Er, y-yes and no. [cough] Er, Tam O'Shanter's probably the favourite. //Er,//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 and one wonders what he might have done given a longer life er in coming into the story telling //and play, the play form like that.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm.// Yes, uh-huh.

M1191 Because it is a superb story,

F1189 Mmhm mmhm.

M1191 a wonderful story there. //Eh...//

F1189 //Have you done much reading about the life of Burns?//

M1191 Yes.

F1189 Right. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mm.//

M1191 //Yes I have done a lot. I've I've collected a fair, talking of Scottish memorabilia, this is something I want to ensure goes to a place where it's going to be made use of.//

F1189 Mmhm mmhm.

M1191 Er like the book [inaudible] the Glenriddle manuscript.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 the facsimiles of Burns' writings for the Glenriddle //collection.//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 And er that is worth something

F1189 Mm.

M1191 to a young student coming on,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 doing things. //Yeah. Important. Mm.//

F1189 //Yes yes a-absolutely uh-huh uh-huh.// Now you told me off recording too, er Stan, that you did for a while the Address to the Haggis.

M1191 Mmhm.

F1189 [laugh] And this became a a a business //of a sort, mm.//

M1191 //Yes, er// I got into it quite casually. Er there was an old chap called Bill Brown, he was one of //the old fellas in the Dunedin Burns club, delightful old fella.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mm.// //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 //Two of them in partnership, Brown and Turner, painters and er// //Bill was, Bill was getting on in years, and he would say "come on with me" and he and I used to do er Tam O'Shanter//

F1189 //Mmhm.// Mmhm.

M1191 er paragraph by paragraph

F1189 Mmhm mmhm.

M1191 alternating the voices, //doing the whole thing. That was good.//

F1189 //Uh-huh mmhm.//

M1191 And then Bill would do the Address to the Haggis and then

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 er he said to me, "what about you doing this?" and so forth //And he'd say to me "look, I like your voice inflection this way, a bit more of this", helping, helping the other fella out.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 Er, so I got into it accidentally. Er and saw it grow into a very large tourism business.

F1189 Mm mmhm.

M1191 Erm and it was a wonderful thing because people I found from all over the world love Burns.

F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //And we told them the Burns story in plain language, without any of the the fancy miscellany, the the things what why, and used a bit of Burns poetry//

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 in the thing there. So it was a very successful business to do that. But unfortunately it er erm l-lost its appeal because there were too many people trying to do it and copying it and doing it badly.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Unfortunately that's what happens with many things when people try to er copy. //Yes, yes, erm yes, this is right, yes, mm, oh it has too, it has too, yeah mmhm yeah yeah.//

F1189 //It's interesting how that association has grown between Dunedin and and Burns himself and and and the sort of perpetuation of of the culture of Burns, you know, through the Burns suppers and that kind of thing.//

M1191 Yes, I I became so well-known when I walked the streets of Dunedin when I was doing that Burns //thing because//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 they produced a a video, //er//

F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mm.//

M1191 //promoting Dunedin// er and rather than just the sights and sounds of it, they went for some of the characters, //the characters of Dunedin,//

F1189 //Right, uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 and there was an old fella Johnny Warren, who used to do the most marvellous fish, enormous gentleman, and Johnny was a character, I was a character.

F1189 [laugh]

M1191 We were in this, doing this, doing that. Now that video sold, to tourists coming and going.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Er it went all over the world.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 I spoke to a fellow a month or two back there, he said "oh, the last I, I remember now", he said, "the last time I saw you, was er was when I was in Berlin", and I sort of looked at him and said "I haven't been there for a while". //And he said//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 "no" he said "I was watching television one night,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 and here you were on there". //So we did that show for endless overseas television.//

F1189 //[laugh] Uh-huh mmhm mmhm.// //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 //We did in Japanese, Italian, German, French,// you name it.

F1189 Good heavens. //Uh-huh mm mm.//

M1191 //Erm where we could we'd change it to suit the er language of the listeners.// Er we couldn't exactly see the Burns //one.//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 But we'd tell them the story and the feroc- the ferocious gestures that go with //it,//

F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //and the fun that's built into it,// in itself, er and alternatively we'd get an interpreter

F1189 Mm.

M1191 and tell the story through the interpreter.

F1189 Mmhm mmhm.

M1191 So y-you find that people have seen you all over the world.

F1189 Mmhm. //That's quite amazing, isn't it? Uh-huh.//

M1191 //Quite quite am-, that's amazing, isn't it?// And for a long time I used to get a lot of mail, Christmas cards, from people who'd seen me do this //[inaudible].//

F1189 //Now, you know, the Pacific world, I can understand// //but Germany? [laugh]//

M1191 //Yes, yes, Germany, yeah.// //And Italians and the Ger-, the Japanese and so forth.//

F1189 //Uh-huh yeah uh-huh uh-huh.// //Mmhm mmhm. Mmhm.//

M1191 //But er it was, we went on, we performed that to large audiences, I can remember performing it er in the National Tourism Awards in Dune-, Wellington, Wellington Town Hall.//

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 And er there was five thousand there, and I had them in the cup of my hand //there.//

F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 //And the audience, you know, the second you open your mouth on stage, whether you've got them or not.//

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 If you've not you've got to be awful quick to bring it back again //in [inaudible] that way.//

F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// Yeah, so. Now, now you had two children, Stan.

M1191 Yes.

F1189 Erm, and what I'd like to know is whether or not you you encouraged them to read about, read about Scotland //or indeed if you read to them//

M1191 //Uh-huh.// //[throat]//

F1189 //the kind of things that you had read as a child in Scotland.//

M1191 Yes, er there wasn't very much of it, er, in my very younger //days.//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 Yes, I'd tell them the odd er story book, story from Scotland.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Er we've got a very clever artist here called... er or the character she created was "Hairy Maclary from Donaldson's Dairy". //A wee black Scottie, and she's written, seventeen, eighteen books now.//

F1189 //[laugh] Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 Well this was just the [?]love[/?] of the young one, the daughter. //Yes, yes, Lyn-, er not Lynsey Hood, oh, it'll come in a,//

F1189 //I-is that a New Zealand author? Oh right.// //Mm.//

M1191 //minute.// er, but this was it, //we'd a terrific thing, and that's world-wide.//


M1191 Er, "Hairy Maclary from Donaldson's Dairy" and a lot of other er er characters, cats and dogs,

F1189 Mmhm mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //very very funny, always lovely and the illustrations were quite quite delightful.//

F1189 These are Scottish names, but presumably it's //a New Zealand setting? Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //Oh yes, yes, yes, [inaudible] here, always//

F1189 Yeah, //that's interesting.//

M1191 //[inaudible].// //So the children yes got er stories from books, I never tried reading Burns' poems to them.//

F1189 //Mmhm mm mmhm.//

M1191 But but my daughter grew up er and got into poetry at //school,//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 er I'd say "this is a very lovely poem, can I read it?"

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Er and I would read the poem, I says it's English, and er you find when you talk to people a lot, "I'm going to read Burns", "I don't know a thing about it".

F1189 Mm.

M1191 And you say, "But he wrote in English. He only wrote a few poems //in the Doric."//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 "Oh I didn't know that." And [inaudible] [?]try and think through[/?].

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 And the-they'd no knowledge of it.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 They thought it was a foreign language he wrote. And the number of people who said "Oh my uncle used to recite that in Gaelic", er and I said [laugh], "I don't think they ever did because //er//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 "To a Haggis" was only translated into Gaelic in the nineteen fifties, //something like that", mm.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //No, it doesn't really make sense, does it? No. Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //People [inaudible] the-the-they [inaudible].// //[inaudible], yes.//

F1189 //Yeah they're confusing Gaelic with Lowland Scots.// //Mmhm yeah, uh-huh mmhm.//

M1191 //That's it.// //Yeah,//

F1189 //Er, so that's interesting.// //mmhm mm.//

M1191 //so my son er [cough], he wasn't er particularly interested.// He absorbed the family story of the slaying of the er the [?]red common[/?] //at the behest of King Robert the Bruce, that anecdore,//

F1189 //Mmhm.// Mm. //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 //with it being myth or er fact, it's hard to tell.// But er he's, strangely enough, in more recent years, and he's now in his mi-mid-fifties, //getting to the point of thinking about retiring.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mm.//

M1191 Er he's a great reader of Scottish travellers, geography. So he knows now an awful lot more about Scotland than I do,

F1189 [laugh] //Uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //you know, in a geographical sense.// //So [inaudible] present me with the book and say "Oh I've just read this, you might be interested in that".//

F1189 //Uh-huh mm.//

M1191 It's so-and-so, he goes up to there and does this and does that.

F1189 Mmhm mmhm.

M1191 He's got to-. So he's interested in that.

F1189 Mmhm. //Mm.//

M1191 //He is an amateur geographer, that's what his hobby is.// //Yeah yeah yeah.//

F1189 //It's interesting that he-he's looking at Scotland, mmhm.// Now you've never been back

M1191 No, //I never had any notion to. I was offered free trips//

F1189 //to the UK? Mm.//

M1191 back from time to time with ships, people [inaudible] I'd sailed with.

F1189 Mm. //Mmhm.//

M1191 //"Want to come away on the ship [inaudible]?" I said "No, what would I want to go there for?"// Not th-, I had not the slightest interest when I came here, I just said "no, that's me finished".

F1189 Mm mmhm. So where did you go on holiday then, er Stan?

M1191 Eh, where where when go on holiday?

F1189 Did you go anywhere on //holiday other than, uh-huh right uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //Oh yes, locally here, you went with the children, you toured, [inaudible].// //So you went to the beach resorts, you went to there, you went to that.//


M1191 And er I was a keen fisherman,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 and my daughter became a keen fisherman, and

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 caught nice, lovely nice trout. Er, but my son never ever took that up there.

F1189 Has your son ever been to to the UK? //He has? Mm.//

M1191 //Yes, he's been going over quite regularly,// until his [?]tongue[/?] got the better of him. //He hasn't been able to go for a few years. But he would go over for a month,//

F1189 //Uh-huh.// //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 //er// base himself in London, //er//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 and set off with a good pair of sneakers on //and a backpack//


M1191 and do the bookshops of London.

F1189 Oh right. [laugh] //So he's a real reader too, isn't he?//

M1191 //Er and I think the last time he was there he paid four hundred pounds// //excessive baggage, on books.//

F1189 //Uh-huh. [exhale]// That's worse than me. //[laugh]//

M1191 //Well you know, this this this is Robin.// //But you can see what he's got me. Yes, yes, yes.//

F1189 //Uh-huh. I can see, yes, he he has a a vast collection.// //Again,//

M1191 //Very avid reader.//

F1189 mostly non-fiction. //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Yes, yeah, yeah.//

F1189 So you'v-you've perpetuated that //from your own father and mother to... yes uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yes, yes, it runs through the family, yes [inaudible].// Er and now with the grandchil-, the granddaughters,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 I've sat them down

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 and said, "Now I would like to tell you a very lovely poem",

F1189 Mmhm. //Mm.//

M1191 //nothing about, nothing about who the author is,// //anything about Burns, [inaudible] next thing.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 And there er Katie is writing quite good poetry //herself.//


M1191 She's upper sixth //this year,//


M1191 so she's been writing quite well. Er and they've both been performing in school //plays and getting involved in that kind of business, so they're with granddad to some extent there.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Now er//

M1191 //Yeah.//

F1189 y-y-you've done a lot of travelling and I know you like //to read about travel and you like//

M1191 //Yes, mmhm.// //Mmhm yes, yeah.//

F1189 //to read about all the various hobbies that you've taken up, Stan,// including //meteorology, [laugh] yes, quite a lot. [laugh]//

M1191 //Well I'd hate to think, there's there's endless hobbies, and my wife used to say, "What next, dear?"// //[inaudible]//

F1189 //But you have done some fiction reading, and and you do have a love of// //poetry, uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yes, yes, yes, yes.//

F1189 So in terms of contemporary fiction,

M1191 Mm.

F1189 do you read anything o-of that?

M1191 [throat] The nearest I probably get to it is er erm fictional sea stories //perhaps,//

F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //something I know the background of.// Somebody's written a fictional story about a tanker disaster.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Now you'll look at it in the same way, you'll look at it very //critically,//

F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //you'll dissect it,// and you'll probably shut the cover and say "well, I didn't really know what he was talking about".

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 That kind of, you know,

F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mm.//

M1191 //treatment of the book, as it were.// //Erm, the historical stuff, yes I'm still interested in some of the Scottish historical stuff,//

F1189 //And what about the historical sea-faring tales? Mm mm.// Mm.

M1191 in itself. Er, I can still sit down and read the Reader's Digest condensed books

F1189 Mm.

M1191 to some extent, I read selective

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 but have a look at them there.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Or even some of the Reader's Digest short stories,

F1189 Mmhm mmhm.

M1191 er particularly if there's a Scottish theme in them.

F1189 Mmhm. //Are you still getting//

M1191 //or a British theme.// //No, no, I haven't got it for years and years, no.//

F1189 //the Reader's Digest delivered? No, uh-huh.//

M1191 No, we don't see it at all now, //[?]doesn't like me[/?].//

F1189 //So th- so these are all// back copies //that you you've kept, uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yes, yes, they're from yesteryear, talking about it.//

F1189 Uh-huh. //Mmhm. Yeah, uh-huh. Right. Now,//

M1191 //But no I only read it in waiting rooms or something, that's all these days.//

F1189 I did notice though in one of the other rooms that you had a pile of the Scots //Magazine.//

M1191 //Scots Magazine, yes.// Well again, I've never contributed there, I've never been great, but Robin has conscientiously brought me that as he's gone past the shop.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 So I probably in the last three years, er if not longer, //read every every op-, every copy//

F1189 //Mm.// //Really? Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //as it comes through, just at the library,// [inaudible]. Those ones there were a job lot I think he bought in a sale //and it turned out I'd read about half of them.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 But er er I actually wrote to them, er last year sometime I suppose it would be, er a lady, don't know where, Edinburgh, had sp- given the story of the Gilbert Burns //side of the family,//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Mmhm [laugh] mmhm.//

M1191 //and their life in [inaudible] down in [?]Forfarshire[/?] [?]down in Ayr[/?].// Er the the the way of life with er Gilbert and er //the mother was there, Burns' mother was there of course//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 to start with, er Burns, and Gilbert's wife, //and his family growing.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 Er and she finished the article by saying that she understood there was a a house built by Gilbert //in Dunedin//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 er in eighteen forty-eight, er when the settlers //came here.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 So I wrote and pointed out that er it wasn't, see the house was built for him,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 er occupied by his son, //anyway, and then//

F1189 //Mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //er it was eighteen sixty-six, sixty-seven when they moved into it.// So it was just a correction, I didn't bring it up.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 and I bought the house in derelict state,


M1191 //I'd renewed it and so forth.// Er, I sent a picture but they didn't use them. //Yeah. Yes.//

F1189 //I was about to s-, they didn't publish it, did they?//

M1191 Scot-Scots Magazine, so it's in one of those I think there. //I've got a copy of it.//

F1189 //Uh-huh.// //Uh-huh. Mmhm.//

M1191 //It was, you know, it was interesting.//

F1189 Oh, so they did publish //your letter then? Ah, well that's okay then.//

M1191 //Oh yes they published the letter, oh yes that was good.// //so that was good.//

F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh.// Now that's interesting that erm information //is coming back to Scotland for a Scottish magazine from, yes, uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yes, back again, well that's true, yes, yes.// //Yeah.//

F1189 //Isn't that interesting?//

M1191 Oh I can remember er er newspapers talking to one of the boys, it was the Campbells of er Glencoe.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Er and I've done a little bit of //study on it now.//

F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm. Mmhm.//

M1191 //a li-, a little bit about it, so I wrote a sh-short article for the newspaper.// [inaudible] //[inaudible].//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 Er this was right, this was wrong, etcetera etcetera. And you know, [inaudible] used for that day and all this, oh amazing the stuff that came out.

F1189 Mmhm. //Yes, uh-huh.//

M1191 //The nth detail of it.// //So people were very consc-, I I was amazed.//


M1191 But there are quite a number, this is a more modern phenomenon.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 There are endless clubs, er clan societies //here in Dunedin.//


M1191 And this has been, you know, this is a growth industry

F1189 Mm.

M1191 er in more recent years.

F1189 Have you joined any of them //yourself? No, mmhm.//

M1191 //No, I haven't.// //I haven't had any any part in that.//

F1189 //Mmhm mm mmhm.// Wha-what do you think about that //really? Do you think it-? Mm.//

M1191 //Oh nothing wrong with it, no.// //I'm proud of my heritage there still.//


M1191 Er, and I think we've all got to be proud of our heritage, //where we come from, where we're going, and then our children in turn learn about that.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm mmhm.

M1191 I've er endless extolled this Kirkpatricks of Closeburn to my daughters //and told the story to my granddaughters so that they in turn have some knowledge of//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm. Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 what's going on,

F1189 Yes, uh-huh.

M1191 what happening that way.

F1189 And you're, yes you're keeping links with //with the past.//

M1191 //Yes, yes, yes, you keep it that way.//

F1189 New Zealand has its own heritage, both er

M1191 Yes. //Uh-huh.//

F1189 //the settler one, and also the Maori one// //before it. Have you done much reading//

M1191 //Yes, mmhm.// //No, not, I'm not a Maori erm fan.//

F1189 //about that? Mm.//

M1191 Erm, I appreciate what they're doing, what they're //trying to do.//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 Er, I think there's an awful lot of dollar signs before the eyes today with anything to do with the word Maori.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Er, it seems nothing happens, "Oh we want another twenty million, please." //"No please we want it, you have to give it to us. We, we are..." The wrong, the wrong that they put onto the settlers, you know, chop them and we eat them, never seems to come into it at all.//

F1189 //Mmhm mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Mm mmhm.

M1191 There's a lot of that kind of thing.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 So the Maori race has er reestablished itself politically,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 er and er are becoming very strong.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Er I'm sad to see it because er I think this is the beginning of er er racialism coming in. A lot of it coming in.

F1189 Mmhm mmhm.

M1191 This is apartheid coming back again,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 you're getting that kind of feeling in the country, //eh, di-divided.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //D-do you think that's a a//

M1191 //Because we [inaudible] brown skin.//

F1189 an unintentional //by-product of... mm.//

M1191 //Yeah yeah yeah yeah, I I,// when I announced that I was hoping to go and marry a New Zealand girl

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 eh ninety percent of my friends thought she was coloured.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Eh, there's no knowledge

F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //whatsoever of that.// Er whereas I'd been brought up on er fortnightly issues of the New Zealan-, pink page magazine that used to come out, with er photographs etcetera //etcetera,//


M1191 can't remember [inaudible], New Zealand something. But the two aunts [inaudible] used to send this to my parents. //So I can remember my bedroom being scattered with a New Zealand theme.//

F1189 //Ah, yes uh-huh uh-huh.// Mmhm. //Mm uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //So I knew the words New Zealand at an early stage.// I knew that they'd sheep and horses

F1189 Mm mmhm.

M1191 and cattle,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 er but not terribly much more about it

F1189 Yes, uh-huh.

M1191 till I sta-, my father started to tell me a bit more about it

F1189 Mmhm mmhm.

M1191 and come into it.

F1189 Yeah, so there was that interest //there, yes, uh-huh.//

M1191 //That interest there in the family// //interest there themselves, yeah.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Now you came over here really at the the end of Empire really

M1191 Yes, //yes, yes, yes.//

F1189 //for Britain, erm,// but I, from what I gather, this was still a very British place //in terms of allegiance to//

M1191 //Very very much so, very much so.//

F1189 the Royal Family, //for example, mmhm.//

M1191 //Yes, mmhm.//

F1189 How did you feel about that?

M1191 Er, I didn't have any real thoughts. //I can remember pouring,//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 when the Queen drove past I was pouring cups of tea for the elderly

F1189 Mm.

M1191 in the Scout uniform. //Oh yeah, yeah, we were lined up there, we had to entertain the group of them, and it was a very good site//

F1189 //Oh yes of course uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh mmhm mm.// //Mm.//

M1191 //in town there, and we put chairs, we put them down, we got the, we brought the women from the homes and//

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 used ambulances, used everything to bring them in

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 and we had cups of tea with them. //No, that was it, there was nothing to do. Eh.//

F1189 //Mm. So you had a job of work? Yes. [laugh] Mmhm.// //Now,//

M1191 //It didn't mean very much to me//

F1189 yep. //No? Really? Uh-huh.//

M1191 //in itself. Yeah.// No, I'd er I'd probably been, you know, [?]inside the[/?] the crowd, [inaudible] the crowd, you know? //Yeah, you know?//

F1189 //Mmhm.// But th-, there probably were I mean I'm sure a lot of commemorative books and //magazines and things brought out, particularly when the Queen has visited New Zealand erm//

M1191 //Oh yes, yes, endless. Yes that's right, yes, yes, yes.//

F1189 Have you e-, have you ever bought any of those? //Or read any of those, Stan?//

M1191 //Er, not really.// Er, my wife for a long time had a fascination for the Royal //Family, but//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 er I think all the books went there, [?]it wasn't huge[/?] //[inaudible] possessive.//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 Er no just probably went to, the way of all books //in the finish. [laugh]//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Yes, uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yeah, that was it.//

F1189 Well you can't keep them all. //[laugh]//

M1191 //No, I discovered that. Huh.// //[inaudible].//

F1189 //Now,// erm contemporary New Zealand fiction, //it-it's ge-, its star is rising, really.//

M1191 //Yes, [cough] yes.// //I'm reading some very very good pieces by contemporary New Zealanders.//

F1189 //Mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Maurice Gee is a good author// er who's written some very lovely books.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Er, and they've been produced on televisi-, for television. //And this has been good, because you can see the thing there.//

F1189 //Have they? Right, uh-huh uh-huh mmhm.// //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 //And there's some excellent New Zealand-produced programmes.//

F1189 Mmhm mmhm. //Mmhm yes, uh-huh.//

M1191 //Some really really good ones, and er.// //It's er it's a way of life I've absorbed very readily, very easily.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //It seems so, yes, uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yes, yes.//

F1189 Uh-huh.

M1191 I wouldn't go back to anyth- any other way of it.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 And [cough] I'm friends with the former harbour master. //He and I were second mates//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //together in the Bank Line, way back in the the forties, late forties and so forth.// And I see a lot of Ralph and we //we were both from Paisley.//


M1191 We both went to school within quarter of a mile of each //other.//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 Did not know each other. We were both in Scouts at the same time.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 But here we are we met up in Dunedin. //And er Ralph will drop in, he dropped in yesterday afternoon, and er blether to him, this, that and the next thing, catch up with what was going//

F1189 //[laugh] Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 going on. But we both agree now that er we got out of the Merchant Navy at the right time.

F1189 Mm mmhm.

M1191 Er I got out because, two things, I wanted to marry, //first and more important,//


M1191 and the second was I had failed my eyesight test, er I couldn't go any further.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 So I'd have been left as a second mate, or mate //er for ever and a day, just be an old mate,//


M1191 you know, working my days out

F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //on a coast or somewhere round Britain, until I was seventy, that kind of thing.//

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Er but er he got out and he went to South Africa, was there, and then came here, and was harbour master, private harbour master and so forth. And I was the same, I came ashore and it was the best thing I ever did,

F1189 Mm mmhm.

M1191 because all of our contemporaries were out of a job,

F1189 Mmhm, yeah. //Uh-huh mm.//

M1191 //in the nineteen sixties and into the seventies, the container revolution started.// Er and nobody wanted old [inaudible] //mates who didn't know anything about containers,//


M1191 that type of thing.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Erm and it it just became er ridiculous, Bank Line had about thirty, forty ships, //you know,//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 they didn't keep one of them.

F1189 Mmhm. //Yes, I think you're right then, yes going, uh-huh.//

M1191 //because they hadn't gone to containers, they'd gone there, and we found that er// you know, there was people just coming ashore, wondering what to do. //And I had an ama-//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 an amazing number of people sit there, and sort of say, "well he wants a job, [?]get off there too[/?] what do you think he could do?" And I'll say "Well, you can do this, you can do that". "Oh no no". "Look you're doing it every day", I say, "clerical work //of some kind,//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 doing this, or looking after cargoes", I say, "You can adapt. You've adapted to sea-going, you can adapt to shore."

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 [?]everything[/?]. So it's been er an experimental journey, the last few years, and I think we won,


M1191 //with the the container age.// //Ah.//

F1189 //Now I'm just looking to my right here, and I see that you've got the Otago Daily News there.// //It seems to be very popular.//

M1191 //Mm.// //It is a good paper, yes, an extremely good paper.//

F1189 //Yeah. Mm mmhm.//

M1191 Er, I actually cut cuttings from it

F1189 Mm.

M1191 er every day. One lot goes to the grandchildren in London, who get a great deal from it,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 er that and other //magazines and papers.//


M1191 Er and I'll post them to them er every week or two weeks.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Er and also another set with er nautical side of it, //to my cousin in Saltcoats.//

F1189 //Right, uh-huh uh-huh.// //Right, so you're sending things back? Uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //And he is not getting much, sending things back, cause// //he in Saltcoats is not getting an awful lot of nautical things.//

F1189 //Mm.// Mmhm.

M1191 He tells me the Clyde, it's rare to see ships going up the Clyde these days.

F1189 It is indeed rare. //Mmhm mmhm. Mm mmhm.//

M1191 //No, I've got to go up to up Skelmorlie way out there, to see the bulkers coming in to Hunterston.//

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Er and he says, "well there's nothing much more" he says, "other than the navy, the Grey Funn- the Grey Funnel Line".

F1189 Mm mmhm.

M1191 He says there's very little going //through. So he's getting more//

F1189 //Well and th-the//

M1191 shipping information

F1189 Uh-huh.

M1191 than er, you know, //than he's getting from the local papers, see, that's all his.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //Oh yes, I see, uh-huh.//

M1191 //See?// //Shipping shipping shipping.//

F1189 //Uh-huh.// And you post them every //couple of weeks? Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yes, post these, all snippety bits and pieces, on shipping, shipping.// //And we talk the same language,//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //the sailors' language, really. But he's retired now,// //he was, he did twenty-five years in command of the ferries,//

F1189 //Uh-huh mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 cross-Channel, and then he was hired for Hook of Holland And they did Stranraer to Larne //latterly, about three years.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //But you-you're sending//

M1191 //But he's been retired for a good few years.//

F1189 stuff out to keep people back home

M1191 Yep. //[inaudible], yeah.//

F1189 //well home for me anyway,// erm in touch with here. Do you still stay in touch with politics and events //in the UK? No.//

M1191 //No, not at all.// //Not at all.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 Er no, I'm not er er if there's anything on the politics, I'm lost //completely.//


M1191 Er, my son has worked for the Foreign //Office.//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 Erm, occasionally I'll say "what's happening in your little //neck of the woods?"//

F1189 //Mmhm mm.//

M1191 Erm, he's on the World Bank //British team.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 So he's er travelling extensively er with government //funding for third-world countries.//

F1189 //Mm. Mmhm.//

M1191 Er he specialises in African

F1189 Mm.

M1191 nations, but has fingerholes into the rest of //the world.//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 He's got an office in Washington with seventy, eighty staff //on it, so//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 they're kept busy enough. //So he's spending a bit of time over there.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// I just wondered because er it is a good paper. //It kind of...//

M1191 //It's a good one.// It covers //the international news, the local news,//

F1189 //Uh-huh mmhm mmhm.// //Is there enough international news in it//

M1191 //er it's very well set out, it's readable.//

F1189 for you, //Stan? There is,//

M1191 //Yes, yes.//

F1189 Mmhm. //Mm mm mmhm.//

M1191 //Er er the fact that there was a hurricane wind in er Venezuela or Berlin, there's a snow, a few snow falls,// //it's only of passing interest.//

F1189 //Mmhm.// Right, uh-huh. //Uh-huh mmhm. That's interesting mmhm.//

M1191 //It doesn't matter to me very much to hear it, yes.// //No.//

F1189 //So th- so there's// no one sending you clippings from the UK then?

M1191 Er no, er daughter'll send me //bits and pieces. Stuart's pretty good for er sending bits and pieces, all things he picks up here or there.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //Er, they're good from that point of view.//

F1189 Some very big erm Scottish issues, for example in the last ten years ha- has been devolution //Erm mm.//

M1191 //Yes, yes, and I can't come to terms with that, cause I don't know much about it.// I saw the buildings in Edinburgh and I thought I-, shuddered a bit, //I'm afraid cause I saw the building there.//

F1189 //Mm.// //Very controversial, uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yes, yeah, the comments with it there.//

F1189 Uh-huh.

M1191 But you see, I remember Edinburgh, now, w-went through to Edinburgh as a boy.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Er, the sergeant major, the senior sergeant major was always a friend of my father's,

F1189 Mm. //Mmhm.//

M1191 //you know, Argylls? "Yes Sir,// Eleventh Battalion, you were the Eighth, weren't you? You Second, the Third", you know, they all knew each other, [inaudible].

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 And I can remember in the Castle, er I must have been nine, ten year old,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 er "Go round the Castle yourself, boy. Tell them sergeant major [?]Bertram[/?] sent you. And they've to let you in anywhere you want to go."


M1191 //And being let into the Cr-Crown Jewels and all the rest of it, you know, the whole way through.// To get into places, "What are you doing?" "Sergeant Major [?]Bertram[/?] said I could come in." That kind of thing. So I had the run of the [inaudible] Castle.

F1189 Mmhm mmhm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Go anywhere in the place, [inaudible] whisky there, tartan [inaudible] and all the rest of the places again.//

F1189 So you-you're h-happy with your memories then of Scotland, yo-you //don't need to update them? Mm mm.//

M1191 //Yes, they were pleasant memories, they were pleasant memories.// Er, I took a battering when I went to sea, because, I've mentioned that, you've got that story, //[inaudible] is hair-raising.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mm.//

M1191 As we went down the River Clyde, that first night,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 er we were putting the stores back into the lifeboats, //and the life rafts up on top,//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 and by a means of [inaudible] all of those had been stolen

F1189 Mm.

M1191 in Glasgow.

F1189 [laugh] //Right. [laugh] Mmhm mm mmhm mm mmhm.//

M1191 //And it was either the culture there, theft and misdemeanour, and pure skulduggery, and all the rest of it,// er not working, not doing anything,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 shutting themselves in a cupboard, with a smoke and a wee game of cards.

F1189 Mm. //Mmhm.//

M1191 //you could do nothing about it.// But that was the Scotland that I remembered //going away from.//

F1189 //Mm.//

M1191 Then I came back, it was in the post-war years, having been away for a fair //time,//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 having seen many other cultures, came back there, and found it was full of wide boys,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 er the gentlemen with the the rolled up trousers and the the cavalcade coats, and all the rest of it, slicked hair, //er and it was black market, black market, black market.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.// //Was that one of the reasons why you you did up-, want to up sticks?//

M1191 //That kind of thing. I, no// no, I I was ready to leave.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 I would think looking back I was ready to leave.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 I'd have er probably gone for another girl somewhere else. //Just couldn't think, it had gone. [laugh]//

F1189 //[laugh] Well you were a sailor. [laugh]// //[laugh]//

M1191 //[inaudible] any girl will be the worse for knowing me, my dear.// //But er, no, I kept in touch with all the girls there.//

F1189 //Uh-huh mmhm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //I had no thought of marrying or anything.// And this was the first serious one.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 And Helen had actually had two of her very much loved beaus killed in the airforce, both //two pilots.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 Er and er she used to talk very fondly of them.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 We both did. //We'd discuss our old girlfriends.//


M1191 In fact I've welcomed her old girlfriends to the house here.

F1189 Yes, uh-huh. //Uh-huh.//

M1191 //And you know that was, that was the kind of girlfriend they were.// //You could take them to your family and meet the husbands,//

F1189 //Uh-huh.// //The girls had come from the UK or//

M1191 //do that kind of thing.// //Yeah, yeah sometimes, yes.//

F1189 //from mmhm,// //or other parts of New Zealand, mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Yeah. Other parts, you see.// //but er that was it.//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 Er but there was nothing wrong with that //er anyway.//

F1189 //No.// Mm.

M1191 but I think I was ready to settle, I'd got to the stage, you know, er the ship I was on, I wasn't really happy on her, and er the the the captain, //although she was very poor,//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 did a very poor job of the whole thing and er //I was ready to get ashore.//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 So I'd made it there and then I said to Helen, I said, "well", you know, "will you come", I didn't propose marriage till I got back out again, but you know, that was the understanding.

F1189 S-Stan, you must be getting tired now, I've kept you talking //quite a long time. [laugh]//

M1191 //No, I'm quite good, because I've been sitting a long time.// //And I'm usually popping up and down to do things,//

F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 I'm quite happy. And it's been a treat //to to to... yes//

F1189 //I-it's been very pleasant for me too.// //I've only got//


F1189 two things really I'd like //to ask//

M1191 //Yeah.//

F1189 you about, and then we can finish. Now one of them is to ask you to speak specifically about certain authors, to find out whether or not //you've read them recently, in Scotland, or more recently here.//

M1191 //Yes yes yes, mmhm yep.// //Well Maurice Gee is erm one in New Zealand.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Er, of the Scottish authors?//

F1189 Some of the very iconic Scottish authors, //apart from Burns and Walter Scott//

M1191 //Yeah, yeah.// //Well I've er, I still go back to, I've still read John Buchan.//

F1189 //erm// //Uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //I'm a John Buchan fan.// Er and I have to go down into the pitch, the pit //in the library here//


M1191 to get the old Buchans.


M1191 //They've got a full set there, but they're not on public display.// So er I went through the whole lot.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 And Rob, he was, he enjoyed them too.

F1189 Mmhm. Ha-have you read them more than once? //Mmhm.//

M1191 //Oh yes, oh yes.// //I go back to...//

F1189 //So where did you read them first time?//

M1191 Ah, probably as a boy, //schoolboy, that kind of thing.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm. Mm mmhm.//

M1191 Er, we were very fortunate the teachers we had,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 all of them er spurred us on //to learn, to do this, to do that, and it was a pleasant e-exercise going on.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm yes uh-huh.// Mmhm.

M1191 Er.

F1189 It's interesting that you mention Buchan. He does come up a lot //for people of of your age, erm//

M1191 //Yes, yes, that's right.// //Yeah. This is right.//

F1189 //So he was immensely popular, obviously.//

M1191 No I I got the DVD of the //Robert Donat, the "Thirty-Nine Steps", yeah?//

F1189 //Mmhm. Yes, uh-huh.//

M1191 And I can still watch //that. That's good that.//

F1189 //Uh-huh uh-huh.// //Have you seen any of the updated version of the "Thirty-Nine//

M1191 //Erm,// //no, I haven't seen any of the updated ones.//

F1189 //Steps"? Mm.//

M1191 but er, I'm just trying to think what er I don't know what I've done. //But what I bought was er "Kidnapped".//

F1189 //Mm.// //Oh right, uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //It was the DVD of "Kidnapped",// Peter, the Australian fella... Peter... Joyce? Not Peter Joyce. Finch!


M1191 //Playing the role of Alan Breck.//


M1191 //And that was good.// //It was the best, I think, it was a Disney one,//

F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //but it was the best of all things.// You see the other ones occasionally, think oh yeah, [inaudible] not nearly as good //as that Disney one, it was really good. Er,//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm yeah, interesting, yeah.// Now, Robert Louis Stevenson, have you read more widely of Robert //Louis Stevenson?//

M1191 //Yes, yes.// Er, I visited his home

F1189 Mmhm. //Mmhm mm.//

M1191 //in Vailima, in Samoa.// Er went out by taxi and [?]slammed[/?] the way up, the three of us. Er to get up there you've gotta clim //up, how they got a iron coffin up there beats me.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm.

M1191 But they must all be tough fellas. //They must have, [inaudible] road up somewhere.//

F1189 //Mmhm mmhm?//

M1191 But getting up there was quite a job.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 And there were some Maori girls who took us up, er we got up there, and I've got photographs taken of me on the the the grave.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Erm I've been down to the house, to Vailima,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 And it's [inaudible] it follows you, wanderings

F1189 Mm. //Mm.//

M1191 //the whole way through.// And of course all these stories. //Yeah.//

F1189 //Mm.// //So what about things like erm//


F1189 Doctor Jekyll and er //Mr Hyde?//

M1191 //Mr Hyde.// Ah yes, read it but not with great //interest, you know, sort of ghoulish//

F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //in itself, that way, erm// //Er more the Scottish stories, they had some of the er//

F1189 //Not your cup of tea?// //Mm.//

M1191 //even some of the older writers in the Scottish, er Scots Magazine,//

F1189 Mm. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //some quite interesting stories to be told,// you know?

F1189 I mean some of the more, the sort of iconic ones are are people like Neil Munro //yeah.//

M1191 //Yeah, oh, Para Handy.// //Well I-I've given Para Handy, I've got a copy of the "Vital Spark" there.//

F1189 //Mmhm.// //Uh-huh mmhm.//

M1191 //And I keep meaning to ask my cousin in Saltcoats, was a DVD ever made of anything of the "Vital Spark"?// //Do you know anything of that?//

F1189 //Mmhm.// Erm I'm sure it ha-, er I think actually the BBC have one //because they//

M1191 //Did they?//

F1189 they they did some updated ones //er//

M1191 //Yeah.//

F1189 in the last ten //years, I think mmhm.//

M1191 //There was one funny one on television many years ago,// er an American trying to get s-goods from A to B.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 and he stuck a a Vital Spark skipper,

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 er and er and he he, yeah. and it was the old story, the boat would go the wrong way, we'll have to get off here for the night because so //[inaudible]. Yes, yes, that that's the one.//

F1189 //Oh was that the one that was Burt Lancaster? [laugh]// //Yes, uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //Yeah, it was very very funny that one.// //But I was delighted with that. I've given it to various associations in the maritime world here//


M1191 er but they they can't get the the la-, the

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 the l-language of it. //They can get the gist of it there.//

F1189 //Right, uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// //Yeah.//

M1191 //But oh I love Para Handy, that.// //Quite quite delightful.//

F1189 //Uh-huh.// //I-I'm sure next time your son's in the UK//

M1191 //[inaudible].// Yeah.

F1189 erm you should be able to get a BBC //er DVD of of the Para Handy stories. Mmhm.//

M1191 //Yes, [inaudible] yeah.// //But er D K Broster's another name that comes to mind.//

F1189 //Erm uh-huh.// //Mmhm mm mmhm.//

M1191 //Some of the old Scottish historians, the the [?]fictitial[/?] historians.// er I remember being very entranced with er Bothwell,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 four books on Bothwell,

F1189 Mmhm. //Well there are people like... mm//

M1191 //er trying to work out what actually happened and why and wherefore.//

F1189 like Nigel Tranter.

M1191 Mm? //Nigel Tranter.//

F1189 //Nigel Tranter.// //Mm.//

M1191 //Now, have you, do you know "The Bridal Path"?//

F1189 No, I don't, no. //I haven't read much of him. [laugh]//

M1191 //You haven't read "The Bridal Path"?//

F1189 Shocking, isn't it?

M1191 What are you going to do for the next half hour?

F1189 [laugh] Why?

M1191 I'll show you "The Bridal Path".

F1189 Right. //Uh-huh mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //I'll guarantee I can give you the best laugh you've had. Erm// Virginia McKenna,

F1189 Mm. //Mm.//

M1191 //Bill Travers, and a very very large school of Scottish actors, some of whom I know,//

F1189 Mm.

M1191 er are in the thing. //But it had the most delightful feel.//


M1191 Now the the the [inaudible] basic tale is he's sent to the [inaudible] her father, isolated.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 He doesn't want him to get married, it's the consanguinity //argument.//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 And they send him off to the mainland to get a wife.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Well and he gave him a list of what he's told to do, what not to do. //She must not be a Campbell.//

F1189 //Mmhm.// //[laugh]//

M1191 //Well he keeps on running into these girls.// //Another bloody Campbell.//

F1189 //Uh-huh mmhm.// [laugh] //Uh-huh.//

M1191 //It's like the whole way through this,// erm it was to be er I we saw it, my wife and I saw it, oh early early married days, and //we laughed,//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 we laughed, and we saw it again. And we always used to say "Oh we'd love to see that //again",//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 And I got a copy just before she died,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 and we laughed, and we giggled our way through it like a couple of teenagers. Er, it was really quite delightful. And the other one is Peter Sellers' //"The Smallest Show on Earth".//

F1189 //Mmhm.// Mmhm.

M1191 Do you remember the //title? One of very early//

F1189 //No, no, I don't know that one. Mmhm.//

M1191 Peter Sellers.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Margaret Rutherford, Bernard Miles, //Peter Sellers.//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 Er and Virginia McKenna //and Bill Travers again.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 Er and they inherit, rightly or wrongly, a cinema,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 but it's not the big Gaumont //down the road, it's the [inaudible] it's the the the Roxy or something [inaudible].//

F1189 //Oh now that sounds familiar now, uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// //[laugh] Yes, I think I know what you mean, mmhm mmhm mmhm.//

M1191 //Really wonderful, delightful, the humour in that thing is absolutely marvellous.// And Peter Sellars' as the drunken projectionist.

F1189 Mmhm. //[laugh] Uh-huh uh-huh.//

M1191 //You know with his bottle [inaudible].// These are things I can, I can get enthusiastic for them, even after all these years.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 I can still be proud to be a Scot, //because of those things there.//

F1189 //Mmhm.// //Are you okay?//

M1191 //Oh. [inaudible].//

F1189 We had a, we had a wee break there just for er two minutes.

M1191 [cough]

F1189 And I have one last question //to ask you, Stan.//

M1191 //Mmhm.//

F1189 But this is quite a hard one.

M1191 [cough]

F1189 Although you probably won't find it difficult. //[laugh]//

M1191 //Uh-huh.//

F1189 Erm, which is to sum up for me, if you can, what reading has meant in your life.

M1191 Well I think it's a very easy one. It's meant a great deal to me. It's probably my top hobby

F1189 Mm.

M1191 before anything else. //I would//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 feel absolutely lost without books.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Erm, I can remember once in the Mediterranean, during the Italian //campaign.//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 We were bringing supplies up from North Africa //to Italy,//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 and we ran out of cigarettes.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 Now that cigarette depth-dearth, the cigarettes er caused more fractiousness and t-trouble on board the ship than ever, and somebody at the time said "At least we've got books". I've never forgotten that episode, we couldn't get cigarettes anywhere but there was still plenty of books to to read and do this and do that, all the way through. Not that we had an awful lot of time for reading in those conditions. It wait was a bit sticky at times.

F1189 Mm.

M1191 But however that's it, and er I I //I'm glad//

F1189 //Do you recall what you...//

M1191 I've been able to to continue what started as, by by my parents, and I hope that I've influenced my children in the same way.

F1189 Mmhm.

M1191 Er I'm thrilled that my granddaughters are very avid readers,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 and er are carrying on the tradition and er both my children are very very good readers, so at least I've passed the- passed the flag on for the next generation. But I wouldn't be without books. I wouldn't know where to to turn or what to do. My l-lack of information and knowledge would just be a bottomless pit, I'm afraid. I wouldn't know anything.

F1189 I can't resist asking you, Stan.

M1191 Mmhm.

F1189 Can you recall what you read when there were no cigarettes?

M1191 When I was in?

F1189 When there were no cigarettes, on //that occasion.//

M1191 //No cigarettes.// No, I can't remember, but again it was just the the the Mission to Seamen stuff,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 being passed around, this, that and the next thing. Erm, and there was always something to read and they took you mind away from the cigarette one. //And I can remember, the finish of it there, I remember that I had,//

F1189 //[laugh] Uh-huh.//

M1191 my father who served four years in France

F1189 Mm.

M1191 had always spoken about the Caporal,

F1189 Mm.

M1191 the French cigarette,

F1189 Mm. //Mm.//

M1191 //how strong they were and how lovely they were.// And I remember I bought several packets //for//

F1189 //Mmhm.//

M1191 him in Algiers or somewhere we'd been, and put them away, and I remembered I had them, and I brought the-, several packets out, and I invited them all along, the ship's company, and we were nearly all sick with these //these strong-smelling cigarettes, terrible smells,//

F1189 //[laugh]//

M1191 Caporal, woah. //So I I was I was in the black books of everybody, my my cigarettes, ah!//

F1189 //[laugh]// //[laugh]//

M1191 //[laugh] So there you are. [laugh]// //[laugh] Mm, yeah.//

F1189 //That was a sneaky last question, erm, but I I had to ask you it.// Erm, anyway, I think we'll finish there, but not before I thank you very very much, Stan,

M1191 Uh.

F1189 for being h- so hospitable to me this afternoon, and for the benefit of all your wisdom, I'm //extremely grateful.//

M1191 //Oh it's been lovely having you.// Er I I, the chord of memory stretches far in times when I get someone like yourself //coming with Scots tongue.//

F1189 //Mm mmhm.//

M1191 I can drop back into it. I mentioned my friend the har-harbourmaster here. //He has a Scots wife.//

F1189 //Mm.// //Mmhm.//

M1191 //Er and er we just blether and blether and blether.// //endlessly, blethering. [inaudible]. [laugh]//

F1189 //Blether, there you go, that's a, it's a good Scots word. [laugh]//

For gender	Mixed
Audience size	N/A

Speaker awareness	N/A
Degree of spontaneity	N/A

Year of recording	2009
Recording person id	1189
Size (min)	81
Size (mb)	393

Recording venue	Interviewee's home
Geographic location of speech	Dunedin

Transcriber id	718
Year of transcription	2010
Year material recorded	2009
Word count	15282

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Document 1689

Interview with Stan Kirkpatrick, Part 2, for Scottish Readers Remember Project

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Interview with Stan Kirkpatrick, Part 2, for Scottish Readers Remember Project

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Participant id	1189
Gender	Female
Decade of birth	1950
Educational attainment	University
Age left school	16
Occupation	Research Assistant
Place of birth	Ayr
Region of birth	S Ayr
Birthplace CSD dialect area	Ayr
Country of birth	Scotland
Place of residence	Glasgow
Region of residence	Glasgow
Residence CSD dialect area	Gsw
Country of residence	Scotland
Father's occupation	Journeyman joiner
Father's place of birth	Ayr
Father's region of birth	S Ayr
Father's birthplace CSD dialect area	Ayr
Father's country of birth	Scotland
Mother's occupation	Domestic
Mother's place of birth	Ayr
Mother's region of birth	S Ayr
Mother's birthplace CSD dialect area	Ayr
Mother's country of birth	Scotland

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Document 1689

Interview with Stan Kirkpatrick, Part 2, for Scottish Readers Remember Project

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Copyright holder(s): SAPPHIRE, SCOTS Project

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Interview with Stan Kirkpatrick, Part 2, for Scottish Readers Remember Project

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