| F718 |
So tell me when you first became interested in Scots. |
| M017 |
Well I I was interested in eh in in the fact when I went to school that er the language we were supposed to speak in the classroom was different from what we spoke at home, |
| F718 |
Mm |
| M017 |
because I I lived in in a house where my grandparents were still present, and er |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
really spoke nothing else at at home.
Also there's a a distinction in the the the playground in which the children |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
er, where I went to school in Galashiels, er, erm, er, er used the numerals er, yin, twae, three, fower, five, six, seeven, echt, nine, ten, eleeven, twal, |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
and the numerals that we got at school, so that made a very puzzling er sit- situation.
So this, certainly, er, has a, er, in my view in retrospect,
//[inaudible] a// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
a a very bad psychological effect,
//cause// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
see, er wh- what is happening is that the child is being told that the way its parents speak and its grandparents
//speak is// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
wrong, something that has to be corrected.
And I think that this, this er impact has got a lot to do er in later life with people in Scotland er and what is often
//known as// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
the as the Scottish cringe.
//A sort of feeling that// |
| F718 |
//mmhm mmhm [laugh]// |
| M017 |
somehow there's something wrong with them
//that has to// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
be corrected.
And the people that get this impression at a very early age, it er, it can become er persistent,
//and, you know,// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
affect them for the rest of their lives.
Eh, I was also interested in the fact that eh I was in contact with people of older generations and that my my great grannie, who was born in eighteen-forty, spoke eh nothing else but Scots.
Er and as Scots it really sounded quite, er, in a sense quite lofty |
| F718 |
Mmhm
//mmhm mmhm// |
| M017 |
//compared with er//
the way Scots is now presented to us. |
| F718 |
Yeah, yeah. |
| M017 |
Mm |
| F718 |
So were you encouraged to speak Scots in a in a home environment when you were
//young, aye?// |
| M017 |
//Oh yes, well I didn't//
really speak er anything er anything
//else.// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
Er though of course eh even then of course eh Scots was er er suffering erosion |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
from the fact that we'd had this er system of education where it was presented as an incorrect form of English
for hundreds of years,
//for many// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
generations.
But er, er despite the fact that er that er that er the the impact of English was huge,
//you know, it// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
it was used f- in the bible and in in education,
er the the the structure of the language was still, er, not intact, but at least it was still |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
it was still substantial er er Scots that was spoken.
Eh every generation of course more and more words disappeared
//er// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
er er
But that's a thing that interested me but of course I didn't, er, that has not been my career.
//My career has been as a// |
| F718 |
//Mm Mmhm// |
| M017 |
as a biochemist. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
But er, in my later years of course er erm I have er sort of erm returned, you know, to
//my earlier// |
| F718 |
//uh-huh// |
| M017 |
earlier interest.
//[sniff]// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm mmhm// |
| M017 |
[cough] |
| F718 |
Do- were you, did you erm do Scottish literature at school?
I kind of have the
//impression that you get the occasional bit of Burns and not much else.// |
| M017 |
//Well, no, very, well, yeah,//
we we had er, the headmaster was English and he he sort of took the view that er that somehow er or other, er contradictory view, that it was worthwhile to teach
//Scots songs,// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm//
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
//but//
anyone that used it in the classroom
//was sort of// |
| F718 |
//[laugh]//
//[sniff] Yeah.// |
| M017 |
//guilty of some sort of//
impertinence.
Er every year there would be a a Burns prize, usually
//given// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh// |
| M017 |
to some boy that could recite Tam O'
//Shanter all the way through, but// |
| F718 |
//Yes. [laugh]// |
| M017 |
we didn't really |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
er we were not really aware that there was any literature in
//Scots// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
eh apart from er the work of Burns. |
| F718 |
Mmhm mmhm
Do you think that Scots would benefit from having a a more official place in the school curriculum, or? |
| M017 |
Well my my own view is that it it er er it it should be taught as a separate linguistic
//system,// |
| F718 |
//Right. mmhm// |
| M017 |
closely related
//to English.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
Eh er but er it it should not be represented as something which is
//inherently wrong.// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
Er you cannot think that it is reasonable to regard a a Scots word, er like er "dreich" for example,
//as// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh// |
| M017 |
being somehow wrong,
//eh// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
Er eh er many Scots words were brought across the North Sea by er our ancestors a long time ago. |
| F718 |
Yeah. |
| M017 |
Eh er that er it's wrong to sort of see certain modes of speech as as wrong.
Certainly, there is a difficulty, in that that forms of speech, and Scots often comes into this
//category,// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
er often become very unpopular and they become seen as wrong
//because they are associated// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
with social deprivation. |
| F718 |
Yeah.
Do you think that is particularly the case with urban varieties
//rather than rural varieties, mm?// |
| M017 |
//Ye- yes, I think that has happened in//
urban
//situations,// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
where people often hold on to some of their
//Scots// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh// |
| M017 |
I mean it even comes a-a- across in er a series like "River City",
//eh er// |
| F718 |
//Yes, quite, uh-huh.// |
| M017 |
that that where there is some Scots spoken.
Eh very often the the broadest Scots is spoken by the most socially-deprived
//people// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
in the in the series.
So this is eh it raises the question of whether there is such a thing as good or bad er Scots. |
| F718 |
Yeah.
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
//Eh eh//
In my view, er, you cannot escape er er seeing certain kinds of speech as being bad,
//if they are// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
traditionally associated with |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
social- social deprivation,
//drug// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
[?]edition[/?], addiction,
//crime.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
Eh eh that that is a it's a terrible thing that that should happen.
But that is is the case, so that, eh I I, if I'm asked the question "Is there such a thing as bad Scots?" eh I would say "Well,
that is in the nature of language." |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
I think it does become bad when it a- it acquires bad associations. |
| F718 |
Uh-huh uh-huh |
| M017 |
But ba- linguistically of course, nothing is either bad or good,
//[laugh] Independently// |
| F718 |
//Indeed, [laugh]//
//arguably, yeah, yeah.// |
| M017 |
//[inaudible] [sniff]// |
| F718 |
Do you think that can be then be balanced by encouraging writing in Scots, erm to improve its its er, its public face if you like? |
| M017 |
[inhale] Well, there's a substantial body of literature.
//er but of course the number of people that can write,// |
| F718 |
//Oh indeed, I meant really in in the current day rather than in the past. Mmhm// |
| M017 |
eh eh in anything
//which// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
resembles authentic Scots is er diminishing
//er day// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
by day, I mean, it's the fact of the matter.
But eh, the the obvious way to teach any language is in relation to the literature that exists in it. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
And Scots has a substantial body of
//literature.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
Perhaps inadequate.
//Nevertheless it is// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
it is quite, it's substantial if
//you go back// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
to the time of the Medieval makkars. |
| F718 |
Of course. |
| M017 |
And er eh of course there's a logistic difficulty in that fewer and fewer teachers may be sufficiently familiar with it
//to be able to teach it.// |
| F718 |
//Yeah, mmhm.// |
| M017 |
But that should be the the objective,
is to acquaint children with the literature that exists in Scots |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
and er convince them that there is nothing inherently wrong about this and that
this
the language is, has got, er, unrealised powers of expression, |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
that has been greatly neglected.
And er the idea has been put across that somehow Scots is inherently bad, |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
And I would certainly deny that there's anything inherently bad about any language,
although a language can become bad in the sense of its, er er arousing distaste
//because you associate it// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
with social deprivation which no- nobody wants that
//but it's, everybody// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh uh-huh// |
| M017 |
sees, social deprivation, crime and drug
//addiction// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
a-a-a- as bad. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
Eh eh so er there's a little er a little semantic
//difficulty// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
here
//when we speak about// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
good and bad Scots. |
| F718 |
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yes.
Erm, perhaps we can move on to the subject of Lallans magazine. Erm, you told me before that you, well, edited for a number of years.
//Erm// |
| M017 |
//Yes, well I did.//
Er the the Lallans magazine I think is really quite important,
//because// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
er erm it er, over the years it has included quite a lot of what I I regard as quite fine
//poetry,// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
and er that er it is very valuable.
And er I think that eh the the corpus of writing represented by er Lallans is a very good
//basis// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
for teaching a language. |
| F718 |
Yes, absolutely.
How did it, how did it come about?
Erm, you said to me earlier, it started in about, well the early nineteen seventies, nineteen seventy-two probably.
Do you know what, that, kind of what motivated the beginning of of Lallans?
Did it arise out of
//another project, or was it just// |
| M017 |
//Well eh it was eh it was//
it eh it arose as the er as the magazine of the, eh what was originally known
//as the La-// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
the Lallans society. |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
It's name was er changed from the Lallans society to the Scottish Language Society because |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
Er, somebody, Tom Scott, I think it was
//objected// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
to the terms Lallans, and er, er it didn't sort of, his, it didn't er er make any difference when it was changed to the Scottish Language Society; he was still oppo- [laugh]
//opposed to the organisation// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh [laugh]// |
| M017 |
for some reason which I I never discovered.
But eh, it started off in a very modest way, as eh the o- original numbers were simply cyclostyled sheets
//and er// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
Then it er it er gradually became bigger and bigger and er er I er found it very very eh rewarding exercise to edit it.
Though I must say editing anything is, doesn't lead to
//personal// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
pop- popularity!
//[?]you see[/?] no- nobody likes// |
| F718 |
//[laugh] Of course. [laugh] Uh-huh// |
| M017 |
to have their material rejected.
//And er mmhm// |
| F718 |
//Yes, of course, uh-huh mmhm.//
We were talking earlier about the issue of spelling variation as well, and that's, it's one that's, well, controversial, and er very, erm a real problem.
Erm, what are your views on that? |
| M017 |
Well, my [exhale] my views are, th- that that it's something that eh our educational system should take care of. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
And that er, if there is to be a, as I understand there, this is going to happen, that there is to be a national languages
//strategy,// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
that this ought to involve the teaching of Scots at school, er based on the existing body of literature, |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
and that er, the, spelling i-i- is an important aspect of teaching, eh,
er at the moment when people want to know how to spell a Scots
//word, they// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
usually go to a
//dictionary.// |
| F718 |
//Yes.// |
| M017 |
But of course eh, most of the dictionaries that are available can, er, quote eh a number of possible spellings for every word
//and// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
this is er the object of spelling reform to be to tidy up this state of
//affairs.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
Yeah.
It's not unique of course;
//i-i- it used// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
to exist in English
//[inaudible],// |
| F718 |
//Yes, yes.// |
| M017 |
further back. |
| F718 |
Yeah. |
| M017 |
But once o- official documents
//begin to be// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh// |
| M017 |
er spelt in a certain way,
//then er// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
er that helps.
But of course , we cannot hope for any improvement until we the the image of Scots as being somehow inherently bad, and something which is associated
//with i-// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
ignorant and uneducated people, until that image is dispelled, it isn't possible to make any progress at all.
It's very very difficult er to s- to to er see a way fo- way forward in this situation, |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
in the face of er the process of globalisation. |
| F718 |
Uh-huh
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
//Eh, which//
affects the whole
//planet.// |
| F718 |
//Increasingly with English.// |
| M017 |
Eh, we've now got er er English is now taking over,
er, all over the world, as a a means of
//communication.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
And in has been argued by some artists that of course English is no longer a language in which it's possible to write poetry,
//it's just lost its// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
soul, it's become a computer language, or a, you know, or a
//airport language.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm mm//
But it's a language with lots of varieties, and new varieties
//developing as well, uh-huh.// |
| M017 |
//With its huge huge varieties, but of course see it's//
no longer the language of any specific community
//er// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh uh-huh// |
| M017 |
this is rather
//important that in// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
Shakespeare's time
//English was very much// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
the language of a
//a specific// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
community.
Now it's spoken all over the world and therefore you get er, i- it doesn't have eh the the same community association |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
as a language which is associated with a |
| F718 |
Mm |
| M017 |
an existing community.
//Globalisation// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
tends to lead to the disappearance of communities,
//it's a very// |
| F718 |
//Yes.// |
| M017 |
serious development because th- civilisation is really based on community spirit
//er// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
and on trust.
//It's er// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
Er, with the disappearance of communities, er you're no longer, er if you no longer identify with a community, you feel you're in a situation where you cannot trust anybody,
//because// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh// |
| M017 |
Eh, you trust other people, very often, by the way they speak. |
| F718 |
Yeah. |
| M017 |
erm
//I mean you// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
you get recognised and identity from hearing the way somebody else speaks. |
| F718 |
Mmhm mmhm |
| M017 |
Now that's a sort of big question, of course,
//but mmhm.// |
| F718 |
//Mm//
Do you s- do you see this as a problem with no solution, or with an inevitable ending, or do you think there are ways of encouraging Scots to a sufficient degree that it, won't lose out completely to English? |
| M017 |
Well, there isn't any solution in the sense that er everybody in
//Scotland// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
is going to sort of return to speaking the same way as ma grandfaither, you
//know, that's that's not going to happen.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm mmhm uh-huh, yeah.// |
| M017 |
W- we can sort of see that that is not possible. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
But ehm people in Scotland, if we are a community in Scotland, are are entitled to have er the the the language which was originally the state language of Scotland
//treated// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
with respect in education.
eh that that is eh eh there is a sort of eh s-, the the idea that somehow there is a proper way to speak and and other ways of speaking which don't conform to this image
//are improper,// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh// |
| M017 |
that is really I I certainly hope that that is going to disappear
//altogether,// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
though er I don't think there's a solution in the sense that I am going to return to a Scotland where everybody
//speaks the// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
same way as they did when I was a child. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
The literature is still there. |
| F718 |
Yes. |
| M017 |
And that is the the beauty of
//literature and// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
recorded material that we can still access
//material// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
which is not really er universal in the age in which we live. |
| F718 |
Yeah, yes.
How do you feel about Scottish literature at the moment? Do you feel it's er an encouraging situation?
Er, for example, over the last twenty years, have you seen a er an improved place for recognition of Scottish literature? |
| M017 |
Mm er well I'd really rather reserve er judgement about that,
//because eh// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
it really depends what you mean
by literature; if you
//mean// |
| F718 |
//Right.// |
| M017 |
everything that is written, [?]in the whole[/?] |
| F718 |
Mmhm mmhm |
| M017 |
er I don't think the present situation is very encouraging.
But eh, we have, er er then of course, I am probably speaking from the standpoint of the the the time in which I have lived, |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
eh er the fact that I regret that we don't have many Robert Louis Stevensons around
//erm the// |
| F718 |
//[laugh] Mmhm// |
| M017 |
It's inevitable that things should change, and that people should feel that er that the ch- the changes which are occurring in society er are bad because they are different from the time that they have experienced within their own
//own own life.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
So er er I think eh it would be presumptious of me to try to er er pass judgement on what is being being written
//er// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
currently.
Er, there there now seems to be er a rather unpleasant preoccupation with with violence and
//crime.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
Er
//but er// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
there has always been violence and there has always been crime.
//But eh that's just// |
| F718 |
//Yeah, yeah.// |
| M017 |
my impression.
//[sniff] mm mm// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh uh-huh, does that//
encourage the, a negative image for Scots, do you think? |
| M017 |
For Scots? |
| F718 |
Yes. |
| M017 |
We- well there are there are different images, you
//see, the- they// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
we have the the er "gonnae no dae that?" eh er lavatorial
//humour image,// |
| F718 |
//[laugh] uh-huh// |
| M017 |
and then we've got the the view of er people that eh appreciate the the dialogue and |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
maybe Sir Walter Scott's novels, even Stevenson,
MacDiarmid, there are people that can see er great beauty
//i-i-// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
in work written in this language,
because the very fact is it is as different from
//English,// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh// |
| M017 |
enables the writer to sort of reach parts which
//English cannot really reach.// |
| F718 |
//Yes, [laugh], yeah.//
//Yeah, [laugh].// |
| M017 |
//[sniff] Mmhm// |
| F718 |
That that maybe ties in with erm something you were saying earlier about Chinese poetry.
Do you think there there is an affinity between well, er obviously not a small language but another language, a more exotic language compared to English,
//and Scots?// |
| M017 |
//Well, [laugh]//
[laugh]
//that is very difficult,// |
| F718 |
//[laugh]// |
| M017 |
because eh, I I I cannot read eh the the Chinese script directly. |
| F718 |
Right. |
| M017 |
Er and my access to it is through er er translations into English. |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
And of course these translations vary enormously in
//quality.// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
Eh if the translation's been made by a Victorian
//Englishman// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
the Chinese poems sometimes have |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
a a a an almost Victorian
//quality.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
But eh nevertheless I sort of feel that in reading some of these English translations I can sort of reach back into the psyche
//of// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
the original author, |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
although the author may have been dead for a couple of thousand years
//[inaudible]// |
| F718 |
//Yes, uh-huh// |
| M017 |
w- we can sort of reach, eh make contact, it's almost like a sort of spiritualistic
//experience.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
And then of course by using Scots to represent this man's poem, somehow eh eh you achieve a kind of contact with him that er is really quite remarkable. |
| F718 |
Hm mmhm mmhm
How do you, how do you proceed then? Do you, do you work with parallel versions of, translations into English of the poem, and try to sort of use one, erm consider one against the background of the others to, to get
//get to the the original spirit of it?// |
| M017 |
//No no I I don't I don't I don't//
I don't do that. I I I I I read through collections of er of er renderings of Chinese poems by different people and then
//and I I// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
er when I hit one I think will go well into Scots, I sort of try
//it out.// |
| F718 |
//Right.// |
| M017 |
Of course eh, the result is eh is not eh is often quite different from the the English translation. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
But i- and nevertheless I get the feeling er that I know what the original author is trying to say, |
| F718 |
Yeah. |
| M017 |
although the the English
exists
in between.
But eh, eh there is, the the the translations of poetry from another language are are are, it's a different kind of exercise from simply trying to sort of reproduce
//the meaning// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
as it appears on the page.
I-i- it has to be |
| F718 |
[cough] |
| M017 |
a re-creation, |
| F718 |
Yes.
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
//because//
of the different social background
//of the// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
original author and the translator. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
Nevertheless it is er, it does sort of provide a a bond
//with people// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
that lived thousands of years ago
//[inaudible]// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
fascinating. |
| F718 |
Do you find themes in common, when, in looking at the, the very old material, do you find things that are still relevant
//to// |
| M017 |
//[exhale]//
//Yes, oh yes.// |
| F718 |
//still [inaudible]// |
| M017 |
well er th- yes, there are th- there are some tremendous er Chinese poems
about er the pain of grief and
//bereavement er.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm mm//
//Universals, uh-huh// |
| M017 |
//Th- these things are dealt with//
eh in a very direct way, er |
| F718 |
Mm |
| M017 |
And er they're not really greatly concerned with abstractions. |
| F718 |
Right. |
| M017 |
The trouble is that that contemporary Chinese eh very often tend to sort of look with disdain on this |
| F718 |
Mm |
| M017 |
nebulous
//tradition.// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh uh-huh// |
| M017 |
It doesn't appear to them to be er nearly materialistic enough, ehm |
| F718 |
Mm |
| M017 |
But that's another
//[laugh]// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh [laugh]// |
| M017 |
another question. |
| F718 |
Yeah, I imagine the directness would translate quite nicely into Scots,
//does it not? The directness of the// |
| M017 |
//Which one?//
//Er ye-, yes, yes, er I think// |
| F718 |
//the sentiment.// |
| M017 |
Well there is eh, there is er, a a a a man called Harvey Holton that er
//that// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
translated the whole of the er the Water Margin into Scots. |
| F718 |
Right, uh-huh |
| M017 |
And er reading, reading er his translations into Scots, the situation becomes er curiously alive, you know?
//[inaudible]// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
folk bein thrown to the jail, and it eh it's eh it is possible to er eh to share eh the the vision er of the author. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
That's, that is er er I haven't seen these for a while.
Yes, yes, there's two brothers, both from Selkirk. There's er
//there's// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
Harvey Holton er who writes poems in Scots |
| F718 |
Mm |
| M017 |
and there's Brian Holton
//that er// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
that translated the Water
//Margin.// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
into Scots.
//[sniff]// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.//
Right.
Wh- what are your views on the new Scottish Parliament, er as it relates to the language?
Do you think that they, do you think it it's it goes far enough in encouraging Scots?
Do you think it
//[inaudible] Well, quite, anyway, ehm mmhm// |
| M017 |
//Well it hasn't got th-, gone very far so far.//
It's er it's er really done er very, there was a |
| F718 |
Mm |
| M017 |
a a a national cultural strategy,
//[inaudible]// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
which is produced, but it didn't really have er er er, or hardly any
//specific// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
proposals |
| F718 |
Mm mmhm
//mm// |
| M017 |
//in this.// |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
Th- there now appears to be a commitment to a national languages strategy, which |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
raises the whole question of how important eh Scotland's indigenous languages, that is
Scots
and and Gaelic, eh eh are.
eh in education, |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
and in broadcasting, and
//fortunately// |
| F718 |
//Yes.// |
| M017 |
the the the P- the Scottish Parliament doesn't have any control over broadcasting
//or any// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
direct, any way of directly influencing what is
//broadcast.// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
There's no drama in Scots to speak of, apart from
//"River// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
City", and er |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
I am actually quite thankful for the existence of
//[laugh] "River City" [inaudible]// |
| F718 |
//[laugh] Are you a fan? [laugh]// |
| M017 |
It doesn't really go very far,
//er// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh// |
| M017 |
And er it it, what er it does is sort of, er, the Scots in it is sort of differentially fragmented, if you know what I mean?
//No// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
two people speak the same way. |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
[inhale] Mm |
| F718 |
H- has that to do with the writers or to do with the actors, do you think? |
| M017 |
Ah, well, er, I haven't been on the set.
//I don't really, I don't// |
| F718 |
//Right. Fair enough! [laugh]// |
| M017 |
really know that, I |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
Er, I suspect that er that er, some of the members of the cast, they sort of bring their own experiences,
//to the part// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
and that er, there is a certain amount of flexibility in the direction in allowing people to say things which sound natural |
| F718 |
Mmhm mmhm
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
//er to them.// |
| F718 |
Uh-huh uh-huh [inaudible] |
| M017 |
I mean, I don't know if you've seen it yourself, you'll notice there's er, there's one character who comes from er Aberdeen. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
And er, she comes out with characteristically North-East phrases, like
//er// |
| F718 |
//Right, uh-huh// |
| M017 |
but er "Happy New Year aabody", sort of er |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
er and er the, when when an actor is saying something er which is completely natural to him or her, er it has a, to me it has an extra impact,
//but anyway.// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
It's er sort of transcends ac- [laugh]
//Mm?// |
| F718 |
//Yeah, yeah.//
More authentic. Yeah.
Erm, in loo- in well, in looking at the Scots Parliament, Scottish Parliament website, it's kind of immediately, the first thing you notice, really, or I noticed anyway, was the fact that they have the guide to the Parliament in Scots |
| M017 |
Uh-huh |
| F718 |
Erm, do you think that that's erm a political choice, or do you th-, or is it tokenism, or is it a step in the right direction?
There's very little in
//Scots, but there's one or two things.// |
| M017 |
//Well I I I have eh//
erm reservations about trying to undo four hundred
//years of// |
| F718 |
//Mm mmhm// |
| M017 |
of representation
//of// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
Scots in education as being something which is incorrect.
//a-a- and// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh// |
| M017 |
suddenly using it for official documents, because
//eh// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
eh eh that is er can't be done overnight, |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
and I don't think, that eh, myself, though some people might disagree with this, that it would necessarily be a good idea
to sort of eh rename all the public lavatories in
//the new// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
Parliament building as as as er shunkies, cludgies, an an an
//duffies, eh// |
| F718 |
//[laugh]// |
| M017 |
wouldn't, I don't think that this would |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
necessarily be a good idea; it's putting the cart before the horse.
The the the basic problem
//is// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
is an educational one, is
//the way// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh// |
| M017 |
that Scots is represented in school and in public life. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
Er and er that has to be altered eh before we can hope for any improvement
that that it, in fact it could be counterproductive, |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
to sort of eh start off by renaming public lavatories, because then immediately it
//associates// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
Scots with lavatorial
//humour.// |
| F718 |
//[laugh]//
//Uh-huh uh-huh// |
| M017 |
//It's not//
that there is anything inherently wrong
//with it with// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
with with with these words,
but eh it's a it's not a very wise policy
//I think it would be// |
| F718 |
//Mm// |
| M017 |
er it's er the the place to start is in education. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
And with broadcasting.
I- it is, seems to me quite absurd that we should not get er drama in Scots.
//Eh// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
in in er from the BBC.
Er, apart from the the likes of "River City". |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
Aye, there is a place for that but er, there are so many fine plays that have been written in Scots that
//could be produced.// |
| F718 |
//Yeah.// |
| M017 |
Er for a long time there was a pr- prejudice in, against producing er the likes of Macbeth,
er in erm anything but a a rather erm far-back er English accent. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
I think some years ago there was a a a version of Macbeth which was produced with actors with a Scots accent and er Orson
//Welles// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm mmhm// |
| M017 |
actually made a film |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
of Macbeth.
After all the play's supposed to have taken place in in er in Scotland,
//and er// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
it seemed to be quite natural to me
Ideally, I suppose [inaudible] representationally, it would need to be produced in er |
| F718 |
Yeah. |
| M017 |
in old Gaelic.
//But of course// |
| F718 |
//Uh-huh uh-huh// |
| M017 |
er er Macbeth er would certainly have spoken er Gaelic most of the time. |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
But at least to produce it in a Scots accent er at least labels it as belonging |
| F718 |
Mmhm |
| M017 |
to the Scottish scene. |
| F718 |
Uh-huh |
| M017 |
Er to produce it in in Scots is er carrying that process a s- a stage further. |
| F718 |
Yeah. |
| M017 |
Er, I don't think that er drama has necessarily got to be completely representational,
//but er// |
| F718 |
//Mmhm// |
| M017 |
the idea that er that er Macbeth should be produced in what one would regard as a a a sort of very affected type of English accent er doesn't seem to bear examination, somehow. |
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