SCOTS Project - www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk Document : 1675 Title : Interview with Margaret Ritchie for Scottish Readers Remember Project Author(s): N/A Copyright holder(s): SAPPHIRE SCOTS Project Audio transcription F1189: It's the twelfth of February, two thousand and nine, and I'm at the home of Margaret Ritchie in a suburb of Dunedin. What's this suburb called, Margaret? F1192: North East Valley. F1189: North East Valley uh-huh and it is indeed a valley and out of the window here, although it's raining, there's really quite a magnificent view. It's a lovely house and a lovely garden, Margaret. Ehm, could I begin by thanking you very much for agreeing to talk with me today about your reading. F1192: Yeah, well I just hope I'll be use-, F1189: [laugh] //[laugh]// F1192: //of some use to you.// [laugh] F1189: You will, I'm sure you will. //You've no worries// F1192: //[laugh]// F1189: there. Now, can we begin at the beginning with a very easy question, ehm which is, can I ask you when you were born and where you were born? F1192: Mm well I was born on, on oh I'll give you the date, the ninth of April F1189: Mmhm. F1192: nineteen thirty-one, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: in Thornton, Fife. F1189: Oh right, so you're a Fifer uh-huh. F1192: I'm a Fifer. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: Mm. F1189: Uh-huh and tell me that date again. F1192: Ninth of April, nineteen thirty-one. F1189: Nineteen thirty-one, right so that makes you [inaudible] nine, my sums Ooh! Seventy-seven. F1192: Mm. F1189: [laugh] //[laugh]// F1192: //That's right.// //Seventy-eight this year.// F1189: //I got it right for once.// //[laugh]// F1192: //[laugh]// F1189: Oh and eh tell me about that place in Fife 'cause that is one bit of Scotland I //don't really know well.// F1192: //Eh Thornton,// //it's a wee village, really.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: It lies between two rivers and the nearest big town is Kirkcaldy. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. F1192: And three quarters of the people don't live there. Eh it was a railway marshalling yard, //so three// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: quarters of the people that lived there, families, //all// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: worked on the railways. F1189: Right. F1192: Or else there was mines close so they worked on the mi-, in the mines. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And my father was an engine driver. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. F1192: So, knew a lot about trains and stuff like //that// F1189: //Hmm.// F1192: [?]and we were[/?] and each, every time we saw a train we thought that Dad would be driving it. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// You were railway children, then. //[laugh]// F1192: //Yeah.// Sort of, yeah. And then ehm went to, did all the primary schooling //there.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm F1192: And then when it came, there was no high school so had to go, travel twenty minutes on the bus to Kirkcaldy //to the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: high school. F1189: So, was that, it was a small community, then? F1192: Yeah, it was quite a small community and quite close really, they had a lot of ehm social things for the children, //and stuff like that, yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Yeah. F1192: And we were all sort of on the same level, except, children, in those days miners were very poorly paid. F1189: Mm. F1192: And so there was a wee bit of class distinction there from children that came from railway families //and// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: sounds crazy but that's how it was. 'Cause miners, they weren't as well-off, if you like to call it that mm. F1189: Oh no, I know, I know exactly what you mean 'cause I grew up in South Ayrshire //which is also// F1192: //Uh-huh.// F1189: a mining area. //And eh// F1192: //Mm mm.// F1189: I-I'm familiar with that. //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Yes.// So um then we had a, had a happy childhood there and my mother, in those days mums didn't go to work. F1189: Mm. F1192: But then my father died of cancer in nineteen forty-two. //So// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: that left my mother to bring us up, well, I've got ehm I had a sister who sadly died last year, she was eight years older. But she went away to the Land Army so there was just my mother //and// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: my younger brother. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Aye, so //it was a big struggle.// F1189: //So three children.// F1192: Mm and eventually my mother went to work sort of part time. F1189: Mm. F1192: But it was quite a difficult time. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Anyway, it's good for you [laugh]. F1189: You think a bit of hardship's good for //you?// F1192: //Yeah.// I think //so, yeah.// F1189: //Builds character.// //[laugh]// F1192: //Yeah.// I think it's ehm, in later life you realise F1189: Mmhm. F1192: how good it wa-, well, how fortunate you were compared to a lot of other //people.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: And ehm if you only had one dress, did it really matter? One for, one for Sunday school //of course.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: But you know ehm, //you don't look// F1189: //So you don't// F1192: back //on// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: childhood to sad times, really. You're sad losing a parent but we had a wonderful granny. F1189: Did you? //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Yes.// Who helped, my mother's mother, who helped us a lot. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Used to knit all our jerseys and socks and, and then I had a a maiden aunt who lived in London but she was really good to us too. //You know ehm,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: used to have us down there for holidays and stuff like that so we were fortunate. F1189: Well you were lucky then you got holidays. //Ehm.// F1192: //Mm oh yes.// And then before my father died, well I was eight when he died, but we used to go on holidays every //year.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: Because it was free on the train so we used to go to Scarborough and absolutely //freeze// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: in the middle of //June with your// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: eh overcoats on on the beach. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: My husband couldn't believe it when I was sitting here, coats and hats on on the beach. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Mm so we had a lot of happy holidays, we usually went to Scarborough and Whitley Bay these were the places to go. F1189: That would be quite exotic actually //in those days.// F1192: //Oh it was.// Yeah. F1189: To go //that far.// F1192: //You know what it's like on the North Sea, it's// //just// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: so cold. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. F1192: But I mean, it was a, it was nice, we did have sunny days at times mm. F1189: Did you go along the Fife coast as well //for your holidays?// F1192: //Yeah, we've been there a// lot and then my sister, when she went to the Land Army she was based in Anstruther F1189: Mm. F1192: which is on a, and we used to go along there to visit her occasionally. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: So we knew Crail and all these beautiful, along there. F1189: Yes. F1192: Largo and... //So we,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: with her being there, that took us there, //you know?// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: And um 'course wartime came and ehm things were different //but// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: you know we were... Scotland really, where we were never really suffered that much, I think there was one I can remember the Glasgow Blitz because we could hear it and //sixty miles away.// F1189: //Could you?// //Could you really hear it?// F1192: //You could hear the// //bombers and we// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: could see the //searchlight.// F1189: //Mmhm// //mmhm mmhm mmhm.// F1192: //So that was pretty scary.// And then I think, no, there was one bomb dropped on the Forth bridge. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But that was of course looking for Rosyth, //that was meant// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: for Rosyth, where the ships were. F1189: Mmhm //mmhm.// F1192: //Mm.// But I suppose we had a safe war because we had evacuees came from London and all over England. Mm. F1189: I was about to ask you that, I mean, it's unlikely you would be evacuated but you might have got evacuees. F1192: We had ehm children there F1189: Mmhm. F1192: and the interesting thing was eh that some of them came from Edinburgh //as well// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: although they weren't too worried about the war though, these kids that came from London. But all the children that came were Catholics. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And that to us, where we lived, it was, it wa-, it was a Presbyte-, this sounds crazy but it was a Presbyterian village. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And, yes, of course there was no Catholic church but there was one in Kirkcaldy but the nuns used to come. You know, we had to go out the room while they had their lesson in the morning. //So ehm.// F1189: //Oh right// uh-huh. So you-your mother didn't take in evacuees //herself?// F1192: //No she didn't// because she didn't have enough room but we had them just lived up //behind us.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: A lot of people that just had one child took them. //Mm.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Some of them were poor wee souls that were, you know, they were from the slums a lot of them. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And ehm a lot of them never went back. F1189: Mmhm, really? F1192: Yeah. //They stayed there ehm.// F1189: //They liked it there uh-huh.// F1192: There was a couple of single ladies that took them in. //And// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: they just stayed there, they just, I don't know if they legally //adopted them or what they did, but// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// F1192: Apparently they weren't wanted back where they came from. Mm. F1189: Now, those children, would they have been from the likes of eh Dundee or would they be from the East Coast or did they come from as far away as //Glasgow?// F1192: //No.// No, the- they just, London was, it was mainly from there and they //did come from Edinburgh.// F1189: //Oh they came from London?// //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: //Well I think we might have had some// from //Glasgow as well.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: Yeah. 'Cause Glasgow was bombed //badly, Clydebank.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// Mmhm. Now. F1192: But it was so sad, I can remember when they arrived 'cause they all had labels on them with their names on. And then, just a wee bag, you know, they didn't have much. So we felt really well off 'cause of them when they arrived. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: It was good for us. F1189: Right. //Yeah,// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: everything's relative isn't //it? Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: //It is, yeah, so.// F1189: Now your house in, in Thornton then, what, what was that like? Did you stay there throughout your childhood? F1192: Yeah, I was born eh in one house and then we shifted down to the next street really. And then I lived there until I came here. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Although I was away nursing, //so// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: Well, I left, I was there 'til I was sixteen. //Mm.// F1189: //Mm.// Now, were your mother and father readers at all? F1192: Sorry? F1189: Were they readers, your mother and father? F1192: My father was. F1189: Mm. F1192: Mm my mother wasn't, she was one of these... She didn't pass it on to me, she was one of those cleaning ladies and she was always busy cleaning //and washing and// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm// mm. F1192: mm and she read the odd magazine. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But she wasn't... But Dad, he was. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Mm. F1189: Can you recall the kind of thing that she might have read? What magazines that might have, those F1192: Yeah, well, I can //remember// F1189: //Ehm.// F1192: The People's Friend, that was one my granny read. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And when, she used to, at one time older people used to do the, I think there's maybe some, not us but there's some that still do it, they had a lie down after their lunch, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: in the middle of the day. And you weren't allowed in Granny's room 'cause she went and lay on the top of her bed with her People's Friend. F1189: Mmhm. //[laugh]// F1192: //And no interruptions [laugh].// //Yeah.// F1189: //Did you ever read// The People's Friend yourself, //Margaret?// F1192: //And I've// I, I buy the odd one. //The f-,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: the front page, if it's maybe got a photo of Fife or F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Glagow, or Edinburgh or F1189: Mmhm. F1192: somewhere I know. I don't buy them regularly. F1189: Do you buy them here? F1192: You can buy them //here.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: But they're, they're probably about three weeks old //or something like that.// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// F1192: I don't think a lot of people buy //them.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: But ehm there's never too many in the newsagent's. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But if I see one I think oh and Ron'll say 'Why don't you buy this?' //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh] Is// is that in the local newsagent here F1192: Eh //you can buy them// F1189: //you get them?// F1192: at the supermarket. F1189: Really? //[laugh]// F1192: //Yeah, down at the New World,// //yeah, they've got all the magazines.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: And English Woman's Weekly and stuff like //that.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Oh.// F1192: //Ehm.// F1189: I'll need to look out for them, ah. And what about your dad, what did he like to read? F1192: Oh well, he was interested in history. F1189: Mm. F1192: And also, a lot to do with railways and then during the war we had a lot of cousins F1189: Mm. F1192: that were at the war. F1189: Mm. F1192: And he was always really interested in reading about //that and// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: kept in touch with that. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And he was a golfer too so we had a lot of golf books in the house. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And ehm. But he had books of the First World War. He-, he didn't go to the First World War because the quota was if you were a driver they used to drive troup trains so they were, had reserved F1189: Mm. F1192: job. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And ehm he, he used to buy those war illustrateds every week. F1189: Hmm. F1192: And then he had them bound. F1189: Hmm. F1192: And he used to read them a lot and my brother did too. I wasn't as interested in that but then we had cousins that were killed and, you know, he was always reading about the different battles //and...// F1189: //Mm.// //So that, that,// F1192: //So there was a lot of that.// F1189: that was serious stuff then? //Ehm.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Do you remember him, your dad, or your brother ever reading any of the cartoons of the First World War? F1192: Yeah, not, no I don't remember that too much but my brother, he was, he always had comics. F1189: Mm. F1192: But they, you know, they used to swap //and they// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: we didn't buy many but, I remember there was The Rover and The Hotspur, The Beano, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: The Dandy, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: and then there was one called The Girl's Own. //I used to get,// F1189: //Did you get that?// F1192: I used to get one occasionally //if I was// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: I think they were about thrupence, //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: which was a lot of money. F1189: Mm. F1192: Mm. F1189: Did you get pocket money then, eh Margaret? F1192: No, we didn't get //pocket money.// F1189: //Mm mm mm.// F1192: If you wanted to go to the pictures, well you just had to, if Mum had enough money you could go, yeah. And um it was one of these Thornton itself didn't have a big cinema, it //just// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: was a town hall and //you know,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: sometimes it broke down //and all the stuff like that so.// F1189: //Mmhm [laugh].// F1192: But you still liked to go. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. Do you remember any of the, the films that you saw during the war? F1192: There was a lot of cowboy ones in those days. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: I can't really remember films too well. I remember oh a few books, I remember having ehm Grimm's Fairytales, we read them. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And I think we had a Rupert book as well, they were fairly... F1189: Mmhm. F1192: It just had a si- was it a sixtieth anniversary or something? //Recently.// F1189: //No.// It would be at least that. //I would think, yes uh-huh mmhm mmhm.// F1192: //Yeah, it might be more than that, mm.// F1189: Now, Rupert was in the, the Daily Express. //Ehm.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Do you remember any newspapers coming into your //house?// F1192: //Yeah, we used to,// well um we got the Daily Express, we got that every day and then in Kirkcaldy they put out weekly the Fife Free Press. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: We got that. And then, well later my Mum started buying the the Courier which was actually a Fife and Dundee //paper.// F1189: //Mm.// //Mmhm.// F1192: //Mm.// But it was a lot of Fife news in it. And then there was a journal, the Fife Journal, it came out on a Friday. F1189: Mmhm //mmhm.// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: So, so lots of newspapers //in your house then, mm.// F1192: //There was a lot of newspapers,// yeah, and I always bought a Sunday paper. F1189: Oh which one? F1192: Well, the Sunday Post mainly, yeah. F1189: [laugh] F1192: And it had all the comics, Oor Wullie and ehm The Broons. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And my sister, she used to send The Broons book to my kids, of course they couldn't read it. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: `What does this mean, Mum?' [laugh] It was quite funny. //They used// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: to try and read it out to me. Hilarious. [laugh] F1189: In New Zealand accent. //[laugh]// F1192: //[laugh]// Er Ron, he was good at it because ehm he can't claim being a Scot //but he had// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Scots grandparents. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: and he's, one of his grandfathers lived with him F1189: Hmm. F1192: when the Granny died. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: He was from Kilmarnock. F1189: Mm. F1192: and he knew a lot of Scottish words //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: he used to get up and eat porridge with his grandad, F1189: [laugh] F1192: pease brose. F1189: [laugh] F1192: But he remembered him really well. F1189: Mmhm mm yes. F1192: And his mother used a lot of Scottish words //too.// F1189: //Mm.// //Mmhm.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Well, the, the Broons, of course, and Oor Wullie are sort of iconically Scottish, //aren't they?// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Ehm. And it's interesting that you did get the, the Sunday Post, //there ehm.// F1192: //Mmhm mm.// F1189: Was there any competition in your house for, for the comic papers amongst //you and your brother?// F1192: //They used to have ehm// I think they had crosswords in that //for// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: kids. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And, but it used to be a fight who was going to get the page with the Broons and Oor Wullie on. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: And then at Christmas time, if we were lucky we would get a book and then my sister used to send them to me here. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And, for... how many years? About thirty years my mother sent me the Fife Free Press and the Sunday Post. But then postage became too expensive so I told her. She sent them here to me as well. //[inaudible]// F1189: //For thirty years?// //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: And did you keep them? //Or did you read them and// F1192: //Oh some of them, no,// I threw them, well nobody else was very interested. F1189: Uh-huh uh-huh you didn't pass them on to //other people?// F1192: //Oh yeah, I used to pass them on// //to Scottish people I knew that mm,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// F1192: let them have a read of them. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: This eh well after I'd been here quite a number of years I got a neighbour who was, she was from Galston //in Ayrshire.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: And I used to pass them on to Joan. Still friendly with her. Well, she's ten years younger //than me.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: But it was quite good. F1189: Mmhm and what did you think of the likes of the Sunday Post once you'd been here for, for a wee while? F1192: Well, I thought it was wee bit rubbishy in places. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: Eh but I hadn't noticed that, of course we didn't read much else of it, oh there used to be readers' letters, //so I can remember them.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: And that was all sort of sob stuff really. F1189: Mmhm, yeah. F1192: There was nothing good about it. F1189: [laugh] F1192: But that was what newspapers were like. F1189: Mm //mmhm.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Now, in your house I, the, I get the picture of, of quite a culture of reading because you had lots of newspapers //and things// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: like that. Did you have a bookshelf in your house? F1192: Yeah. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Had two bookshelves. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And we had all these, these war books took up the half of it and then he had, it wasn't only that and then there was ehm the Spanish Civil War, F1189: Mm. F1192: cause when, Mum used to... there was this lady that came and collected for the Spanish orphans. F1189: Mm. F1192: I think it was a shilling a week or some- she she has this wee book that the lady wrote in. So we knew quite a bit about the Spanish //Civil War.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: And father had books on that //too mmhm.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// Ehm, now you said that Thornton was a Presbyterian town. F1192: Yes, yeah, well we to- until these evacuee children //came,// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: and then there was one other, this is terrible really //but we called them// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: the Catholic family. //And he// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: was the detective that had come from Glasgow and he was a detective or police. F1189: Uh-huh uh-huh. F1192: So they were the Catholics. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: Which sounds terrible really. F1189: But they'd be different. //Both// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: because they were Glaswegian and //th-there's a different background uh-huh.// F1192: //Yeah, that's right mm.// F1189: So I take it there was a Church of Scotland in, in //the village?// F1192: //Yeah, it was.// //Yeah, yeah.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// So was there a Bible in your house? F1192: Yeah, and we, and we, my father had the family Bible because he was the oldest F1189: Mmhm. F1192: of eight children and it always went to the eldest //son.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: But I don't, I think my brother's got it, I'm not sure, I just had one brother. But there was cousins that were older than him so I don't really know where it went mm. F1189: We-were your family churchgoers then? F1192: Eh, Mum was. Dad used to go to communion which was about once every six weeks and get all dressed up in his bowler hat and everything. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: But Mum, she went quite regular. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And we all went to Sunday school F1189: Mm. F1192: and ehm Bible class F1189: Mmhm mmhm. //Now Sunday// F1192: //then.// F1189: school is a favourite place actually for, for books because lots of people got //Sunday school prizes.// F1192: //And that was something I've// brought with me, my Bible. //But it's, and it's// F1189: //Oh did you? Uh-huh.// Mmhm. F1192: Ron has mended it a few //times.// F1189: //Mm// //mmhm.// F1192: //I've// still got it through here and I got it for regular //attendance// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: at the Sunday //school mm.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: And the, the back of it was all torn //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Ron mended it all. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: He's quite good at mending books. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// So it's been well used then? F1192: Oh it has, yeah. Well, we used it in, then when you went to high school you //used them too, which,// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// F1192: used to have hymns //every morning.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: But I wouldn't have called us a strongly religious //family.// F1189: //Mm// mmhm. F1192: But Mum sort of kept it up. F1189: Mm. F1192: I think Mum's are usually the ones that do that. //Mm.// F1189: //That's true.// Do you remember any other books you got as, as prizes //at Sunday school?// F1192: //Eh yeah,// I got some at school. Oh I found one I was going to show you, it's not, it's called "Maid Marian". //And it was from the// F1189: //Oh right.// F1192: Sunday school //as well.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: I found it the other day, mm. Find it in a minute. //I thought I'd brought// F1189: //Okay, that's great.// F1192: it through here. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And I'll show you my Bible as well //so,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: because when my eldest girl went to Sunday school //eh// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: sorry, went to high //school she// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: claimed this Bible and she's got her name F1189: Mmhm. F1192: inside the front page as //well.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: But it was really mine, it tells you the date. //It was// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: nineteen-forties, when I got it. F1189: Oh, it's a good age then, definitely. F1192: But then when you get to ehm early //teenage// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: you don't want to go to church, well that's usually what happens. F1189: Mmhm, it is. //[laugh]// F1192: //[laugh]// It happens with my family too, well my, when it came to my fifth child, //Grant,// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: ehm. By the time he was six he didn't want to go to Sunday //school.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: He was bored F1189: Hmm. F1192: with Sunday school F1189: Mm. F1192: and didn't like the look of the minister. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// //Well [laugh].// F1192: //`But I could go,// I could go to the Christmas party.' F1189: Uh-huh uh-huh. //Ah well [laugh] no, no, you don't// F1192: //No way [laugh].// F1189: get one without the other [laugh]. F1192: So. F1189: Now, your school in Thornton, that would be quite a small school. F1192: It was a wee school. //Er// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: I think it's a health clinic or //something now, it was// F1189: //Mmhm mm.// F1192: old old, it was stone. F1189: Hmm. F1192: Schools were all stone. F1189: Mm. F1192: There was one school that you could just, here they call it //intermediate, be-before// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: you went to High school, you just had two years. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: It was actually in our street. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: It's, it was a lovely little stone building but freezing cold. F1189: Mm mmhm. F1192: And then, from five 'til, I think it was probably ten, you went to the other //school// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: that was further away. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then came back and then you went to high school from there. F1189: Do you remember any of the, the books or the stories that you, that you got at school? F1192: Yes, I can remember ehm I was trying to think of the... I wrote some down. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Oh yeah, I wrote down these comics in case I didn't remember. F1189: Mm. F1192: But we had a, we, another thing my father was interested in was Robbie Burns. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: So we had a lot of Burns books and he, he was quite good at reciting poetry, he used to, and there was ehm. Tam O'Shanter, //he could// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: recite a whole lot of that, so we were quite interested in Robbie Burns. F1189: Mm. F1192: Some Scots weren't but //we were// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: because of Dad. F1189: Mm. F1192: And he used to go to, you know, Burns' supper and F1189: Mmhm. F1192: address the Haggis //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: stuff like that. F1189: Was there a Burns club in Thornton? F1192: Yeah, well I think it might have been, there was quite a few wee villages //and I think// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: they combined. F1189: Mmhm //mmhm.// F1192: //Mm.// But he, the railway people, they, they put on a lot of functions //and they// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: used to have different F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Scottish nights //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: stuff mm. F1189: Did you get Burns at all at your, your Junior school //when you were young?// F1192: //Yeah.// //A bit of it.// F1189: //Can you remember// doing that? F1192: Mm mm. But another th- I, another thing that I, I remember at school and we had them at home was the Royal family. Because Princess Margaret Rose, she was born the year before me. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: 'Course everyone thought if you were called Margaret it must be after her, it wasn't in my //case, it was a// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: family name, [laugh] and then, I think ehm, well, she ended up the Queen Mother, but the Queen then, I can remember her coronation and we all got a penny and a day off school and a mug //and...// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: But I think it was that she was Scottish //too.// F1189: //Mmhm hmm// mmhm. F1192: And then they came there every year for their holidays. F1189: Mmhm that's right. //Do you remember// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: anything about the, the abdication at that time, you know of Edward? F1192: Yes, yeah, I can remember seeing him. He was really handsome, I remem-, of course there was no TV //in those days.// F1189: //Hmm// mmhm. F1192: Well, we didn't have a TV. Didn't have TV when I left //Scotland in fifty-four but// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// F1192: I think Mum got one after //that.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Yes, but I, I actually read a book about ehm Mrs Simpson F1189: Mm. F1192: since I've been here. F1189: Mm. F1192: Hmm. //It was really interesting.// F1189: //Are you interested in uh-huh.// Are you interested in the Royal family then, Margaret? F1192: Yeah and I remember ehm and then I remember the old ehm Queen Mary. F1189: Mm oh yes //with the pearls.// F1192: //She was// yeah, yeah, she was the Queen //Mother// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: when we were //small.// F1189: //Mm// mmhm. F1192: And then my mother, she remembered, //she was born in the eighteen-nineties// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: so ehm the first year she was at school, Queen Victoria //died.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: And she remembers that and they they got a holiday and that was a May holiday that was kept, we used to have that day off. F1189: Hmm. //Yes, Victoria// F1192: //I think they called it// F1189: day. F1192: Victoria Day. //I don't// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: know if they do it now. //But Mum remembered// F1189: //No [laugh].// F1192: and they had a F1189: [cough] F1192: they had a day off school, she'd just gone //to school// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: but they had a day off school. And she said they wore black dresses and stuff like that. I thought that was quite interesting. F1189: Mm. F1192: So that must have been ninteen oh one, or nineteen oh two, some-. F1189: A long time, before your time. F1192: Yeah hmm. F1189: Were there books about royalty though, sort of when you were growing up, do you remember that? F1192: Yes, there was quite a lot, there was um I suppose the Coronation, I remember that, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: ehm of George the Sixth and Elizabeth. And there was the, we had quite a lot. F1189: Mm. F1192: I think Anne, I think my eldest girl's got them now. F1189: Mm. F1192: Because Mum gave some to me one time I went home for a holiday. And Anne was one, she was really into and her granny used to send //her cuttings,// F1189: //Hmm// mmhm. F1192: er you know? F1189: Mmhm. F1192: That was long before the Diana days. //[laugh]// F1189: //Oh yes.// [laugh] F1192: But ehm. F1189: Now, what did your mother do once your dad had died? //How did she manage?// F1192: //Oh well, she got work,// she went to work in a school canteen, F1189: Mm. F1192: part-time. But she didn't have very good health at that //time.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: You know, she was mid-forties. F1189: Mm. F1192: And ehm yeah, so, she just survived and the pension in those days was, she got ten shillings for herself, F1189: Hmm. F1192: five for me and I think it was three for Tom. F1189: Mmhm mm. F1192: That was what the government //gave you// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: so you could hardly live on it. F1189: No, so do you think maybe then that the rationing that was on during the war might, in a way, have helped F1192: Mm //it did really mm.// F1189: //families like your own?// F1192: And this auntie, my mother's sister, she was really good to us and I think that she had I don't know a lot about her because, you know, you don't know about these things when you're children but I did learn later on that she actually had m-, you know how ehm... She was a dependent. Her, as, you know, when you make out your tax form and you've got, I think she sent her money F1189: Mmhm. F1192: to help pay her rent F1189: Mm. F1192: because we lived //in a council house// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: and I don't think we could've survived without, we always had food. F1189: So your house wasn't attached to, to like your father's railway work 'cause //I know// F1192: //No, no, no.// No, it was a council house. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And they were, they were, side by side there was just two. //They weren't// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: tenements. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Quite nice house actually. //And ehm.// F1189: //Yeah, how big was it?// F1192: Three-bedroomed house. F1189: Mm mmhm. F1192: And //had a nice bathroom and// F1189: //That was quite spacious.// //Oh right uh-huh.// F1192: //mm.// F1189: Very nice. //Uh=huh uh-huh [laugh].// F1192: //A very nice bathroom [laugh].// When we used to go to Glasgow to stay with our cousins, you know, //toilet on the stair head.// F1189: //Getting a cludgie on the close, yeah [laugh].// F1192: Shared by four families or //something like that.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh// uh-huh. F1192: So we were, we were in luxury //when, you know, they used// F1189: //Mm mmhm mm.// F1192: to love coming to stay at our place and spend hours in the bathroom. F1189: Mmhm. So wh-what social class would you say your family were, then? //When you were growin-, working class.// F1192: //Working class, I would say.// //Yeah mm.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// Now, did you sit any kind of qualifying exam, Margaret? //Ehm// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: to go to high school. F1192: Yeah you sen-. F1189: Mm. F1192: It was when you were eleven. F1189: Mm. F1192: Mm it was called the Qualifying Exam, that's what it was called. And if you didn't pass that, well, you went back to this, there was classes at this original //school,// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: that you spent your time from five to eleven, you went back //there because// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: they had F1189: Mmhm. F1192: mm. //And I went// F1189: //I see.// F1192: on to high school in Kirkcaldy. //I think they// F1189: //Yes you// F1192: called it Eleven Plus after that, didn't they? They gave it a... but it was called the Qualifying Exam. //Mm mm, yeah and then// F1189: //The 'Qualie', shortened to [laugh].// F1192: ehm I spent three years there. F1189: Mm. F1192: And then I had to sort of leave school, I could've gone on but I had to leave school to help my mother. //[inaudible].// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: Like a lot of people had to hmm. And you see, with my sister, she stayed in the Land Army 'til after the war F1189: Mm. F1192: so she wasn't given anything. F1189: Mm well they, they didn't get paid very much //really, did they?// F1192: //Oh no.// I think they got oh it was something like a pound a week or something. //If that.// F1189: //It was an allowance really.// //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Yeah, and// their keep. //Mm.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Now, if you think back to before you went to ehm high school ehm of all the books that you got for Sunday school or from presents from your aunt. F1192: Mmhm. F1189: Did you have a favourite? F1192: Eh I had a, I've forgotten the name of some of them. Eh. Talked about it with, because my girls had read them too. Something, you know, it was about families, eh, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: something five, six. F1189: Oh "The Famous Five"? F1192: "Famous Five". //Yeah.// F1189: //Enid Blyton.// //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: //Yeah, yeah.// They were really good. And also, I've written some of it down. Tell me if I'm rambling on. F1189: No, you're not, you're not rambling at all. //You're giving a very good account.// F1192: //Oh "The Wind in the Willows"// was a real favourite //of mine.// F1189: //Oh right uh-huh.// F1192: Yeah. F1189: And did you own that? F1192: Yes, I did. F1189: Where did you get that from? F1192: [exhale] I might have got it in a gift, I think, //from// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: this auntie, she used to give us books quite a lot at //Christmas, we,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: you know, sometimes there were girls' annuals, //You know// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: big thick, with all wee different stories in them. //Mm.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: And then, I suppose it was later on, I read oh "The Lion and the Witch and the Wardrobe" which was on TV the other //night here.// F1189: //Uh-huh?// Uh-huh. F1192: We watched it. //It was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: pretty horrible //really [laugh].// F1189: //[laugh].// F1192: And then I liked ehm "Jane Eyre". F1189: Mmhm. F1192: "Rebecca". F1189: [inhale] yes. //That's a favourite of mine.// F1192: //Yes but I// And then when I think back, I thought, weren't they all so sad? "Mill on the Floss". F1189: Mmhm. Yes, see, you do remember them. F1192: Mmhm. F1189: Now, those books ehm "Mill on the Floss", George Eliot and, and "Rebecca", //Daphne DuMaurier's "Rebecca",// F1192: //Mmhm mm.// F1189: they're quite adult books so what kind of age would you have been when you read them? F1192: Well, I suppose I was in my teens. F1189: Mm. F1192: Hmm before I left home, I think. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Left home at sixteen to go and ehm. And then, the thing was, then, once I did that, all my books were study books. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: Yeah, 'cause I was training to be a nursery nurse and that was three years. F1189: Mmhm. Now, those, those books, things like your copy of "Rebecca" ehm did you own that or did you borrow it from somewhere? F1192: No, I owned it but I don't know where it is now, I suppose it's it's probably, well, things went from my mother to my sister when she passed away and now my sister's gone but F1189: Mmhm. F1192: my niece has probably got them hmm. F1189: Did you ever borrow books? Was there a library or anything? F1192: Yeah, I used to go //to the school// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: library. //Mm.// F1189: //Right uh-huh.// F1192: But I ehm I didn't go as often as my brother did because he was, he just, when you looked at him he had a book. //He was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: really interested. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then he got his interest in history from my father. F1189: Mm. F1192: Mm. F1189: Did he ever get into trouble for having his nose in a book? F1192: Yes. //Yes, definitely,// F1189: //[laugh].// F1192: when the dishes were to be done F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: he always //disappeared.// F1189: //Uh-huh// mmhm. F1192: Favourite place was the toilet with the book. //[laugh]// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// Well at least he was being asked to do the dishes, in some homes boys didn't get //asked// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: to do the dishes. It would have been you that would have been //left with the dishes mm.// F1192: //Yeah, exactly mm.// But he was supposed to take his turn doing something. F1189: Oh well, your mother was quite egalitarian then. //Mm.// F1192: //Mm.// But then my ehm Lorraine, this daughter, she just, she always disappeared when there was any work to be done because she just... she can't go, when she comes down here she loves going to the university bookshop. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But she can't go without buying something. F1189: Mmhm. //[laugh]// F1192: //[laugh] She's lucky// she can afford it. //But, you know, she buys books.// F1189: //Uh-huh mmhm mmhm.// F1192: She's got about four bookcases up F1189: Mmhm. F1192: to the top, but a lot of them have been studies, //through// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: study as well. //Mm.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: But she was a crazy book reader. F1189: Yeah, uh-huh. F1192: And then um Duncan and his wi-wife, he married an English girl four years ago in his forties //so we had// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: given up on him. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But they'd go to the book club. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: You know, they, they were here for the weekend and said, `Oh we've got to go home because it's bookclub on Tuesday night //so// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: And then you'd got to read a book before you go back. //Mm.// F1189: //Yes uh-huh.// Have you ever been a member of anything //like that?// F1192: //No, no.// F1189: Or, or subscribed to you know, eh, a book club where you're, you, you get sent books? //No mmhm.// F1192: //No, no, I// Lack of time, I think. F1189: So you didn't take any books with you when you, you went to train as a nursery nurse? F1192: No, I think they were, it was mainly um as I say, study books, I had to buy //books// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: for that. F1189: Mmhm. And what about in high school ehm, did you get given any literature there to read, you know, as... //did you?// F1192: //Oh yes,// we had to read a lot, //Shakespeare.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: And another book I read when I was... Well, I got hepatitis so I had to be in hospital for six weeks, that's when I was nursing in //Edinburgh.// F1189: //Mm// F1192: So I had to go to the fever hospital //there.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: And the sister in the ward was really sick of you saying, `When can I go?' F1189: Mmhm. F1192: So she came one morning with "Gone with the Wind". //So I// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: read all that //because it's hundreds and// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: hundreds of pages but I couldn't let it, leave it down because it was really interesting history. F1189: What age were you when that happened to you? F1192: Eh nineteen. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: Mm. F1189: So what hospital was it you were in? F1192: It was called the City hospital. //[?]The one that was[/?]// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: way up in, what was that, was it Liberton? F1189: Mmhm. //Yes uh-huh.// F1192: //Yeah.// I think it, I don't know what it is now, it might be a... but it was a long way, my mother used to come and visit //me.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Of course they weren't allowed in. F1189: Mm mmhm. F1192: And it was, at that time there was a lot of children died with it. //Mm// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: but I got it through ingesting, cleaning up. //the children that had been// F1189: //Yes, in your work.// F1192: sick and mm. F1189: Now, "Gone with the Wind" would have kept you going //for a wee while. [laugh] uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: //Oh it kept going for a while but it was so interesting and it had// you know, there were big wars in those days and all kids howling //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: It was good //though [laugh].// F1189: //Mmhm [laugh].// So you were able to to, to blank out all the //noise that was going on.// F1192: //Yeah.// And when my mother came, you weren't allowed in so, and I had my birthday F1189: Mmhm. F1192: when I was in, it must have been my nineteenth birthday //so// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: she brought me a pair of slippers but of course I wasn't allowed to have them. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And I was studying for these nursery nurse //exams.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: But they fumigated the thing so I could //have some of my lecture// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: notes. F1189: Mmhm. Oh so they did that for you //then?// F1192: //Mm// //mm.// F1189: //My// goodness, uh-huh. F1192: Amazing, isn't it? F1189: Do you remember anything else you read during that time apart from "Gone with the Wind"? F1192: Mm. F1189: And what king of things you liked to read then? F1192: And I read um "Beau Geste", F1189: Mmhm. F1192: which I really, I like that kind of //book.// F1189: //Uh-huh// uh-huh. F1192: And then I had ehm I had a pen friend who was in the Palestine police. F1189: Mmhm. My goodness. //Uh-huh.// F1192: //So// I, I um he actually came from Kirkcaldy. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And he got killed sadly but ehm I was really interested in that part //[laugh]// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: of the world at that time. F1189: Yeah, //in the// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Middle East. //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: //Mmhm.// F1189: So this would be probably just after the war then, I would, //uh-huh.// F1192: //Yeah, yeah um.// Late nineteen-forties. //Yeah, [?]probably[/?].// F1189: //Mmhm yeah mm.// F1192: Forty-eight, //forty-nine mm.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Mm. F1192: There was a lot of the men over there. F1189: Uh-huh. Now, you mentioned Shakespeare then and you also mentioned that you could've gone on at school. F1192: Yeah. F1189: Uh-huh so how did it feel to to leave? F1192: Sorry? F1189: How did it feel to leave, how did you feel about leaving school? F1192: Oh well I was quite sad but eh my loyalty was to my mother //really// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: 'cause she was struggling and I mean when you went to work then, you only got about fifteen shillings //a week.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: But it all, you gave it all to your mother. //And then you// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: got half a crown when you needed it and yeah. I just felt that she needed me. And then I never, well I went nursing and that was ehm F1189: So did you choose that, that career then, was that what you wanted to do, nursing? F1192: I'd always wanted to do that because I had a lot of smaller cousins. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And I used to look after them a lot. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: 'Cause their father was in the Navy //and their// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: mother was F1189: Mmhm. F1192: on her own quite a //bit.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: And I used to look after them quite often all day Saturday and, I mean, I was quite young myself. F1189: Hmm. F1192: But that was, and I loved babies and //and looking// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: after babies and stuff mmhm. F1189: So the course that you did then, was that paediatric nursing or was it? F1192: No, it was called nursery nursing. //I don't know if// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: it exists now. F1189: Mm. F1192: But I did it in Edinburgh. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And you worked for the public health //department// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: of the Edinburgh //corporation.// F1189: //Mmhm// //mmhm.// F1192: //The// Public Health Officer, he was the big //boss.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Mm. And you worked in all different nurseries. F1189: Mm. F1192: Hard work because you worked long hours. //But I loved// F1189: //Ehm.// F1192: it, but we had ehm from three week old babies F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: to five year olds. //Mm.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Different departments so we worked down in Leith. Southport Street. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Never forget it. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: 'Cause it was this, just this wee yard. No, it, it was actually a um an antenatal clinic //and a// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: TB clinic //all in this// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: building and we had part of it. F1189: Mm. F1192: And then where the kids played in this playground, That was the flour mills there. F1189: Uh-huh //uh-huh.// F1192: //You looked// up onto the flour //mills// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: you know? Just all these dreary buildings. I used to love going home F1189: Mmhm. F1192: for a day off because it was bright and sunny, well not always sunny, but just away from that, mm. F1189: Edinburgh was a lot darker then F1192: Mmhm. F1189: than it is now. F1192: Yeah because that was the nickname 'Auld Reekie'. //Yeah.// F1189: //Yes.// [laugh] //Ah.// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: Now that, that was a, I hadn't heard ehm of nursery nursing at that time. Tha-that's a new one to me so what kind of children were you looking after? F1192: Eh all very poor //children.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: Ehm there were slums //ehm// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: they were... had fleas and lice //and// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: when they came we bathed them and put them into clean //clothes.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: And then a lot of the mothers were single mothers. And a lot of them didn't know who the fathers were. Right down by the docks, you know. F1189: So this is eh I suppose wartime, really, 'cause //the war// F1192: //After the war.// //Yeah.// F1189: //Uh-huh yeah.// //Yeah uh-huh.// F1192: //It was, aye.// I went there in forty-seven. //Mm.// F1189: //Right uh-huh.// F1192: But there was a lot of Norwegian ships and that //came in there.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// //Ah right.// F1192: //With some// //gorgeous wee// F1189: //Sailors?// //[laugh]// F1192: //blonde [inaudible].// Yeah. //But// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: aye, so erm F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: that was the seemy side of life, I tell you. //Mm.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: Big eye-opener. I used to go home and tell my mother about it and she would be crying when I was telling her about these children. //But it's// F1189: //But that's hard// work, it's stressful too. And I know you probably didn't get a lot of time to read. F1192: No. F1189: Apart from when you got //carted off to// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: fever hospital. F1192: Mm. F1189: But do you remember reading anything at that time, you know, in between shifts? Magazines or, or anything like that? F1192: Can't think of anything, ehm. I did do some reading but I //did a lot// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: of study //too. Wait till I// F1189: //Mm// mmhm. F1192: [throat] Mm that's the wrong //bit of paper.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: Sorry. F1189: That's alright. F1192: Ehm. "The Moon and Sixpence" was another one I //read// F1189: //Oh right.// //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: //and really enjoyed it. It was good.// And we sort of eh we spent a lot of time, we went to the art gallery and that //a lot.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: We went all the places that didn't cost anything to go [laugh] to //go, yeah, yeah.// F1189: //For free uh-huh uh-huh// //uh-huh.// F1192: //So// it was ehm and this friend whom I still write to eh she came from Bo'ness. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And ehm she was really interested in art. //So I used// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: to go all over these art galleries with her. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Lovely place. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Isn't it? F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Edinburgh. F1189: Yes. //Now, there's a big// F1192: //Loved it.// F1189: library up on eh George the Fourth bridge. //Do you// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: ever remember using that? F1192: Yeah, I, I went there but I didn't go there regularly. //Yes.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Sort of F1189: I think there might have been one down in Leith as well. F1192: Yeah. F1189: Mm. F1192: No, I don't remember //that.// F1189: //No.// F1192: Well, we used to go on a tram at six in the morning. And go right down to Leith //on a// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Mmhm.// F1192: //number two// tram. F1189: Mm. F1192: And then off there, there for the day and then back. F1189: Mmhm. //Yeah.// F1192: //So// tired. Oh we used to go and eh down to the gardens //when, if// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: we had time. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. F1192: Stuff like that mm. F1189: Now, one of the things that people like to do on these long tram journeys is to read. //Do you ever// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: remember doing that? Or on the train journeys you made //to your holidays?// F1192: //Yeah.// Used to mm the train going home. //Mm.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: Mmhm. Suppose I used to look at newspapers, //really.// F1189: //Hmm.// F1192: Mm. And that would be the Scotsman. //[laugh]// F1189: //Uh-huh oh right uh-huh.// F1192: Very posh. F1189: Yes, very posh uh-huh. Did you buy that, Margaret, or did you? F1192: Yeah, usually bought one between us. //Mm.// F1189: //Mm.// //And shared it?// F1192: //Mm.// Yeah. I mean I used to always get Scotsman's calendars from my sister, //mm,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: my mother. F1189: Over here? F1192: Used to send them here //to me, used to get one// F1189: //Oh right, uh-huh// uh-huh. F1192: Well, my sister passed away in October. F1189: Mm. F1192: So this is the very first time I haven't had a Scottish calendar, which is quite //strange really, yeah.// F1189: //Oh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// I'll need to see if I can find one //for you [laugh].// F1192: //[laugh]// Time moves on. I kept the old one, I kept my two thousand and eight //one.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: 'Cause it had some interesting photos of places I knew. F1189: Mmhm. //Right.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Uh-huh. Was that, that in Edinburgh? //Places you knew there?// F1192: //Yeah, partly.// F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And, we used to go to Perthshire quite a lot, to the Trossachs and eh from Fife you sort of just, never travelled very long //distances// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: when you're children, well apart from going on the //train// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: to... And then I worked in Dumfries. F1189: Mmhm. Oh right, when did you do that? F1192: Dumfries and Galloway Royal, I went //to// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: do my training there. Ehm. F1189: Was that your, your general //nurse training?// F1192: //Yeah.// Eh fifty, fifty, fifty-one. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Went down there. It was because my Edinburgh friend, she, we went to have a medical for Edinburgh Royal. F1189: Mm. F1192: And she didn't pass her medical. //So// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: we decide- so I, she persuaded me to go to Dumfries //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Galloway Royal, there couldn't have been as fussy about //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: [?]with the train[/?] //there.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// And how did you like that? F1192: It was sort of fun. Didn't know what anybody was saying and they didn't know what I was saying [laugh]. //A different// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: lingo //altogether.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Eh they have a,// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: a very particular way of speaking down //there.// F1192: //Yes.// //They did.// F1189: //Yes, they do.// F1192: And we, and there was a lot of Irish //there too.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: A lot of Irish nurses F1189: Mmhm. F1192: and then families came because there was a training place //for// F1189: //Hmm.// F1192: priests, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: right opposite, //[inaudible] and they used// F1189: //Yes, that's right.// //Uh-huh mmhm.// F1192: //to come over to// Stranraer. //That was// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: the closest way, on the ferry. //Mm.// F1189: //Uh-huh// uh-huh. F1192: So met a lot of interesting Irish people though I didn't know what they were //saying either.// F1189: //[laugh].// //[laugh]// F1192: //[laugh]// F1189: And now what kind of things were you reading all the time you were doing that training 'cause, would that be another three years? F1192: Oh yeah, well, well I'd, I, I actually got sick, erm, we used to work twelve-hour shifts. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And you just got one day off. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And, we, you worked really hard when you were a junior during your //training.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: I mean everybody did. That was okay. But anyway, I had, I got this 'flu and anyway, I got really down to it so I, I decided I went home to see my mother and she said `Oh' you know `You're such a long way away' which is ridiculous from where I am now but ehm, so I decided I would go somewhere nearer home. F1189: Mm. F1192: So I went to Bridge of Earn //in// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Perth. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then it ended up not finishing my training because my mother got sick so I went to look after //her.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: But when I came, but I had done ehm I did [inaudible] for school, //at High school so// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: I could type, I did short hand //typing.// F1189: //Oh right// uh-huh. F1192: So I went back to that. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Er worked for an auctioneer. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then when I came out here I got a job as a typist. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then I had all the kids and then I went back to nursing. They called them nurses and now they call them carers F1189: Mmhm. F1192: at an old people's home //just along the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: road there and I was there for twenty years. F1189: Oh right. F1192: But I really loved the work //too.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: Of course I had my [inaudible] at home [laugh]. //[laugh].// F1189: //Yes, you did.// Five children //of your own// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: ehm as you've told me before we //started// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: this, Margaret. Now, that was a shame you didn't get to finish your general training. F1192: It was. //It was, yeah.// F1189: //These things happen.// F1192: Although when you came here you had to do a six months but that would've //been okay.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: And I could have gone back and done it here but I was too busy. //I,// F1189: //Yes.// F1192: I couldn't and ehm. Ron worked long hours //as well and// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: overtime and... F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Some people can cope with ehm. I liked being at home with my children and I'm glad now that I did. And then I went, when Grant was six I went back //to work.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: And I worked night shifts F1189: Mmhm. F1192: so as I could be at home wh- if they were sick //or anything.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: Mm. F1189: Ehm. //Now// F1192: //And then// Ron was there //during the// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: night. F1189: Mmhm. Did he work shifts too, your husband? F1192: Eh no, he worked eh eight till, half past seven till five and then he worked ehm some evenings, F1189: Mm. F1192: he worked. Mm, you know, eh if they had overtime mm. F1189: Now what brought you out to New Zealand, then? F1192: Oh it's a long //story.// F1189: //[laugh].// F1192: [laugh] Very romantic. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: He was my //pen friend.// F1189: //Oh good!// //[laugh].// F1192: //[laugh]// He was my pen friend. F1189: Your husband? F1192: Mmhm. F1189: Really? F1192: Well, ehm my... it all started through printing too. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: My sister had a friend who worked in paper mills F1189: Mmhm. F1192: and, 'cause there was quite a lot of them in //Scotland,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: and Fife. And the girls there, they used to put their names in and 'cause all the paper at that time came from the UK to here. F1189: Right. F1192: So they used to put names in for guys to get //here to write to them.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: And with this friend of my sister, and then she got a letter back because Ron has always been a stamp collector. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And he had pen friends all over the place. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: So, anyway, he wrote back to her and then she said to my sister `Oh he's too young for me' F1189: Mmhm. F1192: `Do you think Margaret would like to write to him?' F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: I was quite keen on writing //in those days.// F1189: //Mmhm Mmhm.// F1192: So that's how it started and I wrote to him for six years. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then he, he wrote to my mother and said, he said `Why don't you come out and just have a look at New Zealand. See what you think' and he wrote to my mother and said 'If she doesn't like it' ehm `I'll pay her fare back'. Very //generous.// F1189: //He was// very keen. //[laugh]// F1192: //[laugh]// Eh yeah, very keen, and, but he wrote letters like a diary. F1189: Mm. F1192: I knew all about his family //and,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: before I came, you know, he was one of six and a lot of them were a lot older. But anyway. I decided I would come, I thought `This is exciting', you know. By boat. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Long way, six weeks to get here. F1189: Yeah. F1192: But I had a, it was a big experience, exciting time. F1189: What age were you then? F1192: Hmm? F1189: What age were you when you decided to come? F1192: Eh twenty-two. F1189: Still very young. //Uh-huh.// F1192: //So// I ehm. Anyway, he met me. The boat came, the ship came to Auckland //so he// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: came and met me there. We stayed with friends of his mother's. And then we travelled all down and then finally got to Dunedin's... stayed at a few places with brothers and that on the way. That was in the June. And then we got married in the September. F1189: That's whirlwind. //[laugh]// F1192: //[laugh]// //But ehm.// F1189: //Six years// //of writing.// F1192: //It had a lot to// //do with// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: er partly, that his mother, although she was a born New Zealander had a lot of Scottish ways //and knew// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: lots //Scottish words// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: mm, stuff like, they used to give me a really hard time, you know. F1189: Did they? F1192: About m-, about my, the words. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Teased me about //it mm.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh// uh-huh. F1192: 'Cause I said ehm this is, you'll know this word too eh I said to his, when we first got married we stayed with his parents and he still had a single brother. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And I said `Where does your mother keep the besom?' F1189: [laugh] F1192: That was a good one, a besom to them was a bad //woman, you know.// F1189: //A bad girl.// [laugh] F1192: And then he, and then I said something about the gully F1189: Mmhm. F1192: for cutting the meat. F1189: Mm. F1192: And oh all different F1189: Mm. F1192: then my baffies //instead of slippers.// F1189: //Oh your slippers.// [laugh] F1192: But there's a lot of differences. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: You see, this Ayrshire friend of mine, there's a lot of words she used I didn't //know.// F1189: //Mm// mmhm. //Oh yes, different dialects.// F1192: //They've got different slang, isn't it?// F1189: That's right, //uh-huh.// F1192: //Hmm.// And the eh cousins in Glasgow used to call the sink the jawbox. F1189: Mmhm. That's right [laugh]. F1192: Yeah. F1189: Now, but that was a brave thing to do. It's a marvellous story, Margaret. //These// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: slips of paper into eh into //the paper.// F1192: //Into rolls.// //Into rolls that were coming here.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// //Uh-huh// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: with your name and address on them. F1192: Mmhm. F1189: And a request that they, //they write.// F1192: //Yeah, just, and then the girls// F1189: Mmhm. F1192: from, they knew there was, well there was a lot of girls //worked in the, in// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: I suppose they opened and found //these.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Did that happen for anyone else that you know? F1192: Well this friend of mine, whom I still write to, that I did nursery //nurse// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: training with, ehm, she wrote to his pal. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: But that all fell //through because// F1189: //Oh.// F1192: she, when I left she was courting David and eventually married him, who was an Edinburgh //guy.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: And ehm, but his friend wrote to him for a while. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But I was, on the ship, there was three girls, myself //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: one of them and they were all coming out to New Zealand F1189: Mmhm. F1192: friends but some of them had met them. F1189: Mm. F1192: But I'd never met //him.// F1189: //Yeah.// So, but there must have been something about his letters, then, F1192: Oh yeah. //Fa-, er, fancy// F1189: //that let you get to know him.// Hmm. F1192: He's left-handed, he's got, he writes //beautiful.// F1189: //Hmm mmhm.// F1192: Eh for a left-handed person he, he wrote ehm eh very detailed F1189: Mmhm. F1192: about his nieces and nephews and his brothers, //and his// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: mum and dad and mm. So I felt I was coming where I knew the people. //But I was very// F1189: //Just through reading, through// reading about it. //Mm.// F1192: //mm,// but very homesick for a very long time. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then my mother came after I'd been here seven years. And she stayed for a year. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And then all I wanted to do was, I said `Have to sell the house, car, 'cause I've got to go home'. F1189: Oh [laugh]. F1192: And I had three children //then.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: And then I got pregnant. F1189: Ah. F1192: So that was //[laugh]// F1189: //That was the end of that.// Maybe no bad thing. //[laugh].// F1192: //No.// That was right, it took me twenty years to go home. F1189: Yes, uh-huh. F1192: But we couldn't afford it for one thing. //But it was so different.// F1189: //How did you pay for it the first// time? F1192: Mm? F1189: How did you pay for your journey the first time you came? F1192: Worked. F1189: You, you //saved the money up.// F1192: //I worked night shift,// paid for it. F1189: Uh-huh. So, you, you didn't have any help //with getting// F1192: //No help.// //No.// F1189: //your ticket?// Uh-huh. And what was that journey like, on the, six weeks on the //boat?// F1192: //Well I'd// never been on a plane before. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: [laugh] F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And eh I went um after a month I missed my children. F1189: Mm. F1192: And, but my sister had similar aged children. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: So that probably helped a wee bit. F1189: Mmhm. Oh this //is when// F1192: //And// F1189: you went back to Scotland? F1192: Mm. After twenty years but my mother F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Mums don't change, do //they?// F1189: //No.// F1192: And then I went back again another time. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Nine years later my mother was still alive. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then the next time I went back she wasn't. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And that was //that was// F1189: //That would be very hard.// F1192: totally, that was totally different. //Yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: And all your friends were gone too. Canada, Australia, all over the place Scots are. F1189: Yeah. What do you feel now, do you feel Scottish still? Or do you feel a New Zealander? F1192: No, I, I don't feel I'm a New Zealander. //That's// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: terrible and I've never ever become a New Zealander. F1189: Mm. F1192: And when I leave the place I've got to get a re-entry permit to get back in. F1189: Oh right I //see uh-huh so you're// F1192: //Yeah, mm.// F1189: still a, a UK citizen? F1192: Yeah. Yeah, I've got a UK passport. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And people say `Oh why do you do it?' F1189: Mmhm. F1192: I'm proud of my heritage, really. //Ehm.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Doesn't seem like that when you leave it but you know, ehm. And when I first came here there was dif-, not so much, I suppose I got used to it but New Zealanders are sort of different. F1189: Mm. F1192: They're colonials, they're a different breed of people than we were. F1189: Mm mmhm. F1192: And eh you get into this, their ways and all the slang, I took a long time to pick up on //that.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: Mm. F1189: But you have. //[laugh]// F1192: //I have.// Yeah, I have, yeah. F1189: Now that very first journey on the ship, where did you get on the ship by the way? F1192: Eh Southampton. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Eh with the pipe band playing [inaudible]. F1189: [laugh] F1192: [?]cheer you out and away[/?] and they wouldn't let anyone come on the boat train with me, my sister came as far as London, they wouldn't let anyone, yeah. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And I met with this English girl who was one, she had been here. F1189: Mm. F1192: Her sister had been a war bride. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: So she had come here to visit us and she met this guy here so she was coming back to marry him. We were the same age and we sort of clicked, //you know, so she// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: was my friend all the way. //[phone starts ringing]// F1189: //Uh-huh// //uh-huh.// F1192: //Yeah.// Ron'll answer that, I hope. Yeah, so. F1189: Now, you said you brought your Bible over F1192: Yeah. F1189: with you. Did you bring anything else on that journey ehm in terms of reading matter? F1192: Oh I just brought these two books. F1189: Mm. F1192: Do you want me to go and find them? F1189: Now, we were talking about the boat there and you, you made a good friend with another girl coming out to get married. F1192: Mm. F1189: Ehm. Now, this is a, this is a terrific story, so how did you entertain yourself for six weeks? F1192: Ehm. Played cards. F1189: On board, what were the kind of the things that you did, Margaret? F1192: Eh well, there were sort of games that you could play like deck quoits, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: and there was a pool. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: It was a fairly old ship. F1189: Mm. F1192: And then we played games of five hundred. We met up with these eh two English guys, they were going to Australia. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: They had already been //there// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: so ehm. The four of us, we did just sort of //things// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: around. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. F1192: Played five hundred. F1189: Now, I'm interested that you did take your... F1192: Went to the bar at night. //[laugh]// F1189: //Oh right, well yes.// Why wouldn't you? F1192: For something to do. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And then we, our first port of call was Panama. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then eh went to Curaçao, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Isles of Curaçao and then right on to Pitcairn Island, that was a long, long F1189: Mm. F1192: that was three weeks, F1189: Mmhm mmhm. F1192: seeing nothing but //sea.// F1189: //Ocean.// F1192: [laugh] F1189: Did you get seasick at all? F1192: We did when we left home. F1189: Mm. F1192: Because it was May, F1189: Mm. F1192: and it was summer so it was all the wash off //the// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: [inaudible] F1189: Mmhm //mm.// F1192: //Mm.// So we were sick, we didn't, missed a lot of meals. F1189: Mm. F1192: Used to go down and then smell it and oh. F1189: Yeah, that's enough for you. //[laugh]// F1192: //[laugh]// F1189: Now I'm interested that you took your Bible and there's your name inside now, Margaret //Wilson.// F1192: //Yeah, well we're, and then// //Anne,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: when she went to High school, //she// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: said `Oh I need this, I would like to use //your Bible.'// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: So she did but Ron's //mended it quite a few times.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// Now that's, Anne Ritchie, ehm your daughter's name is, is F1192: Mmhm. F1189: is above yours, you're Margaret Wilson. Christmas nineteen forty-two. //Was this// F1192: //Mmhm.// F1189: a Christmas present then? //Eh no, no it was a// F1192: //No, that was// F1189: That was the Sunday school, //wasn't it?// F1192: //Mmhm.// //For the Sunday school.// F1189: //Uh-huh// uh-huh. And it's both eh the Old and New Testament. And it's a little Cambridge University Press F1192: Mm. F1189: edition. F1192: [inaudible] F1189: On very thin paper because that must have been wartime. F1192: Mmhm. //It would be.// F1189: //Yes uh-huh.// F1192: Yeah, it is fine paper, //isn't it?// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Yes. Uh-huh. F1192: And wasn't very well bound according to Ron. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// Well, he would know. //[laugh].// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: Ehm but why did you choose to bring this then with you on your //journey?// F1192: //Probably my mum// said I should take it. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Mm. F1189: As a sort of talisman, //really.// F1192: //Yeah.// //Something like that.// F1189: //Well it was// a long, it must have been frightening really for your mother, you going so //far away.// F1192: //Oh yes, yeah, it// was pretty hard. Sometimes I think, I think back, especially when my own, like Duncan went away //to Australia.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: And he was away there for a long long time. Well, six years. F1189: Mm. F1192: And then when my girls left home oh they never went any further than Wellington. F1189: Mm. F1192: And then Linda, she went away to the west co-, I've got a Linda, she went to the west coast and had a partner over there. Now she's back here because after twenty //three years// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: he decided to... But anyway that's //something else.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: But I used, we didn't see her very often, //because the west// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: coast... it seems close but it's //not really, it's a long way.// F1189: //It's not, no, mm// mmhm. F1192: And I used to think what a dreadful thing I did to my mother, //leaving her.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: You know? F1189: That's what children do. //Ehm.// F1192: //Yeah.// //Well that's right, we all do it but// F1189: //As I know only too well.// F1192: I just thought, you know, you think at times I'd love to be there when things happen, I'd love to be there to... Because I had, with my brother and I, we had a closeness with my mother, F1189: Mm. F1192: through her being a widow, my sister didn't have it //quite// F1189: //Yes.// //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: //as much as we did.// F1189: But she was older. F1192: Yeah, she was the one that was left there and you know, sort of F1189: Mmhm. F1192: cared for mum in a way F1189: Mmhm. F1192: also she was busy but F1189: You must have been fairly confident, then, this was the right thing for you //to do?// F1192: //Yeah, I did.// //And then// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: [laugh] like when I had my first baby I thought all I want to do is show her to my mum [laugh] 'cause I had the first grandchild //and// F1189: //Yes uh-huh.// F1192: stuff like that, you know, //still.// F1189: //Mmhm hmm.// F1192: And then when I had my first grandchild F1189: Mmhm. //Yes.// F1192: //I thought// oh. F1189: Now, what were your first impressions then of New Zealand? You sailed into Auckland, //ehm,// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: you said. F1192: I thought it was, we came down on a bus. //There used to be a bus// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: that came from Auckland to //Wellington,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: then we stayed in Wellington. And then came across on the ferry. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But ehm I thought it was the end of the world, which it is. //[laugh], you know what I mean.// F1189: //[laugh]// //Yes.// F1192: //And you couldn't// ehm there was no shops open F1189: Mmhm. F1192: after five o'clock F1189: Mmhm. F1192: and there was no shops open at the weekend. F1189: Mmhm. //My goodness.// F1192: //So you had// you did all your shopping on a //Friday.// F1189: //Uh-huh// uh-huh. F1192: And then it slowly came in, //you can shop// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: anywhere //twenty-four hours a day// F1189: //Mmhm mm.// F1192: more or less. F1189: Mm. F1192: But just wee things, people used to say `What do you miss?' F1189: Mmhm. F1192: [laugh] It was a bit hard to put your finger on, you know, but you couldn't just go and have a cup of tea sort of in the evening F1189: Mm //mmhm mmhm.// F1192: //anywhere.// 'Cause there was nowhere open. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And there are so many cafs now. F1189: There are, //yes uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: //[laugh] There's a heap of them.// So, oh just wee things //like// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: and ehm I thought it was pretty primitive //actually// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: when I first came. Compared to... Things have improved //a lot.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: But I mean, I think there was a lot a lot of things have changed with immigrants //from// F1189: //Hmm.// F1192: other, Asian, people have changed. And then, this is a University city F1189: Mm. F1192: as you know so you get a lot of, there's a lot of cultures here. Not as much as Auckland //'Cause// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: there's a bigger population. But we get some really, a mixed //culture// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: of people here. F1189: Yes it is, I've noticed that. //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Mm.// There's quite a lot of Asians. //Mm.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Yes, a lot. Now this other wee book I've got in my hand here is called "Maid Marian". And you brought this one too, it's got the stamp of Thornton Old Parish Church in it. And you got it for regular attendance //at the// F1192: //[laugh]// F1189: Bible class. December nineteen forty-five. Uh-huh. By Thomas Love Peacock. And it's got a fairly gruesome picture F1192: Oh. F1189: on the frontispiece of //somebody being hung.// F1192: //Yeah, [?]wasn't it[/?].// F1189: [laugh] Ehm. So, and you brought this one too, now why was that? //Why did you// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: bring this one with you? F1192: I suppose it was, I don't really know, I suppose it was just one that had my name on it. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. And it's a, it's a kind of textbook this. Uh-huh. Did you bring anything else with you? //Eh.// F1192: //I// had a F1189: Or was it just these //two?// F1192: //I,// no, I've got another two books //but I// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: couldn't find them. F1189: Mm. F1192: I think there's a lot of books got down, we had so many books //of,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: down in the basement. F1189: Just wondered if you had brought anything like ehm Robert Burns' poetry or //anything like that?// F1192: //Mm, I've go-, I've got one// but I didn't bring it. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But I'll show it //to you, it's, it's a lovely one.// F1189: //Mmhm uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: When I worked at Ross Home, when I first went to work F1189: Mm. F1192: It's a Presbyterian //old people's home.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: And when I first went there there was two old [?]scotty[/?] men. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: that had been at the Boer war. F1189: Ah. F1192: They were nearly a hundred. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And when one of them died, the matron //there said// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: `Well you can have this Miss,' F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: they called you Mrs Ritchie //in those// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: days, `Because you'd be one of the few that could read it.' //And it's a// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: Robbie Burns //[inaudible].// F1189: //Uh-huh.// //Okay, [inaudible].// F1192: //And it's got a tartan cover.// [laugh] F1189: We had a, we had a wee break there. Ehm. Now, what I was going to ask you, Margaret, was about ehm the library on the ship 'cause I know a lot of these big ships did have a, a //a wee library.// F1192: //Mmhm.// No, it didn't have a library because it wasn't... it had been a ship that was [inaudible] F1189: Mm. F1192: and it was, it had been used during the war //for troops so// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: there wasn't anything like //that.// F1189: //No.// //No, you don't// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: recall anything like that. F1192: Mm mm. F1189: Ehm. 'Cause it might have been a way to while away the time although you seem to have had //company and// F1192: //Yeah, yes, yeah.// F1189: things to do. //Would have been// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: to, to read. Ehm do you recall doing any reading on that journey? F1192: No. F1189: No, not at all? Did you read anything at all before you came, then, about New Zealand? Other than //your husband-to-be's letters.// F1192: //Well, yeah, from Ron.// F1189: Yes. F1192: Yes, I re-, I did read something //about// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: ehm oh it was written by a ehm a lady here who lived on a sheep station. F1189: Mm mmhm mmhm. F1192: And so it was really interesting, it told //you// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: she lived away in the backlocks, //as// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: they called them. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Can't think of the name of it. F1189: Mm. F1192: But it was, you know, it gave you an insight into the... These ladies had a hard life in these sheep //stations.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: Nothing like the ones in Aussie //'cause they're// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: much bigger. F1189: Mm. F1192: But it was a really good story. F1189: Did that not put you off? F1192: No, not //really, no [laugh].// F1189: //[laugh]// So your, your future husband then, Ron, he must, he must have told you quite a lot about New Zealand generally. F1192: Oh yeah, because he was a Ron was a cyclist, he had not cycled [?]recent[/?] F1189: Mm. F1192: but he had polio as a child //when he was// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: four, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: and that was what got him walking, F1189: Mm. F1192: riding a bike. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: So he's biked all of the south islands //so I'd heard all about// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: that. F1189: Uh-huh right, //uh-huh.// F1192: //And he sent me// photos like, that I had to return. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: All black and white //ones// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: but ehm. And his, his other hobby is studying birds. F1189: Mm. //[laugh] Mmhm// F1192: //So I knew all about the birds// F1189: mmhm. F1192: ehm F1189: Did, //Did you keep your letters?// F1192: //of New Zealand.// F1189: Did you bring them with you? F1192: Yeah, and then F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: His mum had a coal range so one night we burnt them all. I brought them all with me but I burnt them. F1189: Oh Margaret! F1192: Should've kept //them,// F1189: //[exhale]// //You should,// F1192: //shouldn't I?// F1189: yes [laugh] //[laugh].// F1192: //There's a lot of// interesting stuff //there.// F1189: //Uh-huh// uh-huh. Oh I bet your children are furious about //that, uh-huh.// F1192: //Yeah, yeah.// They would love to Well, Lorraine, eh Ron was eighty ehm last year. F1189: Hmm. F1192: No, the year before. And two thousand and seven, and she wrote a book about her dad. F1189: Mmhm //mmhm.// F1192: //That's what she gave him// for a birthday 'cause //she's usually away and// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: she loves all that //stuff, you// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: know? He was //born in// F1189: //Did he// keep your letters? No. F1192: Mm. F1189: No. F1192: No. F1189: Sometimes these things happen, don't they? //You know,// F1192: //Mm.// //Well she's,// F1189: //[?]but it was a shame[/?].// F1192: she wrote this //was his// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: life as best //as she could and// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: got all the photos. F1189: Mm. F1192: And then Grant, younger son, he put the photos F1189: Mm. F1192: on to screen, you know, in, onto the computer //and eh.// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh.// F1192: Yeah. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: We had a bit of a sc-. F1189: It was a nice thing //to do, yes uh-huh.// F1192: //Yeah, mm.// F1189: So, now, you've said you were awfully homesick F1192: Mm. F1189: ehm when you came here. F1192: Well I suppose I missed my family the most. F1189: Mm. F1192: And I suppose there was a time when I lived at home for two years //before I// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: came //here, when I went// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: back home, back to the office job, F1189: Mm. F1192: that I got really close to my mum. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. F1192: And I didn't think I was close to her F1189: Mmhm. F1192: until I was away from her. F1189: Yeah, //absence// F1192: //Mmhm.// F1189: makes the heart grow fonder, doesn't it? F1192: Mm. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: Yeah, it //does,// F1189: //Ehm.// F1192: it's ehm. F1189: So you did you have a wee bit of money when you arrived here, then? F1192: None. //[giggle]// F1189: //Mmhm.// //[laugh]// F1192: //I think I had// ten pound when I left [laugh]. F1189: 'Cause I know you had to have a certain amount of money, didn't you? F1192: Yeah, you did. //Yeah, you did.// F1189: //Coming, yes.// F1192: Yeah. And then, ehm I got a job fairly soon //when I came here,// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: through Ron's, his sister's //husband.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: He worked for an eng- ehm an engineering //firm,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: and I got a job as an invoice typist so I was lucky. And at that stage, believe it or not, I was earning more than Ron because I was getting eleven pound a week and he was getting ten. You know, and he, I mean he was a journeyman, he'd been F1189: Mmhm. //He, he'd done his apprenticeship,// F1192: //out of his apprenticeship for years.// F1189: yeah. F1192: Yeah. F1189: But it's quite a glamourous job for a young woman, being an office worker, //then.// F1192: //Yeah, it// was. //Yeah, yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: It was different but ehm. It's here now, but what I really noticed when I first came here, there wasn't as much class distinction. F1189: Right, uh-huh uh-huh. F1192: Everyone was much F1189: Hmm. F1192: the same. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But that's different now, there's ehm, what did my father used to say, `There's no snob like the working class snob'. //And I think, you know, there's sort of// F1189: //[laugh] Uh-huh.// F1192: in New Zealand there wasn't a middle class. F1189: Right, uh-huh. F1192: But it's there now. //I, I// F1189: //[throat] Mmhm.// F1192: can see the difference. F1189: Mmhm //mmhm.// F1192: //Mm.// Mm. F1189: Right, tha-that's quite interesting then that, that you felt that. F1192: Yeah. //I// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: felt that, you were just well, to me, you were well, probably coming from a working class //family// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: you were either working people or you were the doctor or //the lawyer// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: or F1189: The professional. F1192: Yeah, //yeah.// F1189: //Yes,// uh-huh. F1192: And ehm there's plenty of //them here,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: you know as, well in a university city you get that and they come //from all over the world to here.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Yes,// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: indeed. Uh-huh, now F1192: But they're not always the people that feel they're superior //to you.// F1189: //Hmm.// F1192: You know, it's ehm F1189: Mmhm. F1192: strange sort of feeling but I, something I really noticed //but// F1189: //Mmhm.// Is that something you liked about here? F1192: I didn't like. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// You didn't like it. Mmhm. F1192: No, I oh yeah, I did like it, that's wrong, I, I liked to think that ehm there was just two classes //of people.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: Mm. F1189: Mmhm. //Well there always are nice// F1192: //And when you get this all over,// F1189: people and not //nice people.// F1192: //I mean how do you// class people? //I mean.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: At one ti- right, for instance, F1189: Mm. F1192: when I was at High school and you were going to go on to university F1189: Mmhm. F1192: unless you were son of a doctor F1189: Mm. F1192: or a lawyer, or people with money, you couldn't go to university. //Couldn't// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: afford it or people that did send their sons or daughters, they were struggling F1189: Mm. F1192: to do it. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: When I came here, anybody, if you got the university entrance you could go. It's changed now but, you know, ehm it was busy. I had three that went to university and F1189: [throat] F1192: it's, but they always had jobs in the holidays. F1189: Mm hmm. F1192: But, you know, but, what will I say, it's become more so that you can go, most people can go to university and then of course they get loans now from the government. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But they've got to pay them back which is a struggle for a lot of people. F1189: Mm. F1192: You know? F1189: That's what F1192: But what is it like in Britain? F1189: It's the same. F1192: The same. F1189: Same, //mmhm// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: mmhm. I'm interested in what you said, though, that you felt that there was more opportunity here //for,// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: for all kinds of people to, //to get an// F1192: //Yeah,// //yeah.// F1189: //education.// F1192: Probably, partly because of the population F1189: Mmhm mmhm. F1192: but ehm, Dunedin's got a very good name //for// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: education all round. F1189: Mm. F1192: Probably because of its size and Otago University was the first university in New Zealand. And it used to be an-, the medical school. F1189: Mm. F1192: There is one in Auckland now but it used to be, you had to come here F1189: Mmhm. F1192: to train, mm. F1189: Now, do you think the education here, then, when you came here, was better //than what you had in// F1192: //Er// //I think it was a wee bit// F1189: //Scotland?// F1192: behind the times, perhaps. F1189: Mm. F1192: But it has improved and probably worth ehm, people come from other places. F1189: Mm. F1192: Yeah. There's a lot of er, not that I [laugh] think that all Americans are big scholars but there's a lot of Americans //come and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: British. F1189: Mm //mm.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Yes, uh-huh oh now, can you remember any of the big bookshops in Dunedin when you came here or if there were any bookshops? //[throat]// F1192: //Yeah, there's// quite a lot //bookshops.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: Ehm. Well, the university bookshops and there was one called Heinmann's. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But it closed and then Whitcoull's. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: It's F1189: Mm. F1192: probably about the biggest. Ehm. Well, the printers that Ron worked for were called Cole, [inaudible] and [inaudible], they amalgamated with //Wickman// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: [inaudible] and they made it //[?]Wick-Cole's[/?].// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: Cole's were [inaudible]. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: The first printer's here. F1189: Mm. F1192: And they were a family business. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Mm, the old grandad and, you know, they all, even when Ron was an apprentice, he used to come every day, //he// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: was in his nineties. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: He used to come and walk round the factory every day. F1189: Now did Ron ever bring any books home? F1192: Mm. F1189: Once you got married? F1192: Yeah, he used to bring a lot of books. Usually ones that he was fixing. //[laugh] Mm.// F1189: //[laugh] Uh-huh.// F1192: He could tell you lots more about books //than me but never mind.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: Ehm. 'Cause I used to get a lot of //interesting// F1189: //Hmm// mmhm. F1192: old Bibles. F1189: Mmhm. //Yes.// F1192: //Really// interesting old Bibles and ehm, what was his name? Here, one of the old, old writers. There's actually a place in the library here, a special floor named after him. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And he used to bind all sorts of interesting books and then ehm, you know, some of them were gilt-edged. //He// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: brought some home just to let the kids see them. F1189: Yes, uh-huh. F1192: And, but they were too expensive to repair. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. F1192: You know, they were worth too much. //The// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: people couldn't, you know, books that had been passed down. F1189: Mm. F1192: Mm. F1189: Now, well you've got these to pass down. //Your own Bible// F1192: //[laugh] Yeah.// F1189: and eh your Sunday school prize. Did you ever buy anything out the bookshops? 'Cause you were in quite a good job as, as you say and you were earning a bit of money. Did you ever spend any of it on books or were you saving up to get married? F1192: Yes, saving up. //Mm.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// //So did you re-, yes.// F1192: //I had to buy a house [laugh].// F1189: Yes, 'cause people would buy their houses //here, wouldn't they?// F1192: //We were buying a// //house, yeah.// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh.// Uh-huh. F1192: That was New Zealanders. F1189: Hmm. F1192: You had, you bought a section. F1189: Hmm. F1192: We didn't buy a section, well Ron had one and he had it all cleared and then prices went up so we never built a house, we bought one. F1189: Hmm. F1192: And //wooden houses in those days were cheaper than// F1189: //A section would be a bit of land.// Uh-huh. //Uh-huh, brick house.// F1192: //a brick house.// //Yeah.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: And then we could have afforded to build but we wouldn't have any money to buy furniture so we changed our minds. F1189: Did you keep the bit of land though? F1192: No, we sold //it, mm.// F1189: //Sold it.// Right. //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Mm.// But he had cleaned it of gorse and everything, he'd //done.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Did all that before I came here. F1189: Right, so he was sure, then. //He was// F1192: //[laugh].// F1189: sure. //[laugh]// F1192: //Fairly sure.// Mm. F1189: Now, there are lots of local newspapers in, in Dunedin. F1192: Mm. F1189: Did you start reading them when //you came here first?// F1192: //Yeah, yeah.// We had ehm, there used to be an evening //paper// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: here called Evening Star. //It's// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: fronted //here.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: We used to get that F1189: Mm. F1192: because the morning paper, the ODT, Otago Daily Times //which// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: is still going, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: it didn't have enough time to read in the morning. F1189: Mm mmhm. F1192: So we got the evening paper instead. And then there was the weekend paper. F1189: Mm. F1192: It, well, a lot of it was sport //in the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: weekend //paper because// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: New Zealanders are sport mad as you've probably found out. F1189: I know, and they like their horses. //[laugh]// F1192: //[laugh]// Yeah, well he eh we're not horsy //fans.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: But rugby, cricket. //[inaudible] [laugh].// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh uh-huh.// Uh-huh. F1192: Just been brought up to that, I didn't know a thing about rugby, F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: but my boys are quite short, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: and ehm they played soccer. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: So I knew, but Ron had never been to a soccer //game at all, he// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: took the boys so that was all interesting for him. F1189: Did your brother support a football team by the way in F1192: Oh yeah, in ehm eh, what were they called? The Raith Rovers. F1189: Oh yes. //[laugh]// F1192: //[laugh] They were// the Kirkcaldy team that //probably down// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: at the bottom //somewhere now.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: But my brother used to go to that. But he was a //cricket// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: player. F1189: Right uh-huh and how did you find the, the newpapers when you came here, how, compared to the ones at home? F1192: Well ehm, people didn't travel as much then as they do now. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: I mean New Zealanders travel around all over the //place// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: all the //time.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: And so it was all fairly New Zealand based. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. F1192: You know, what was happening here. Not a lot, you'd wri- read the occasional thing about ehm the Prime Minister in Britain or F1189: Mmhm, yes. F1192: if there was ehm elections on but of course you'd get it all from there now, //on the TV.// F1189: //Were you// looking for, for that kind of news from home? F1192: Yeah, in a sense, yeah. You feel sort of left out. F1189: Mm. F1192: But Mum used, she used to write to me every week. F1189: Mm. F1192: To start with I wrote to her every week. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And I used to write to my sister. F1189: Mm. F1192: And I loved getting letters and I hardly get any now and I really miss that. F1189: Uh-huh yeah, it's a dying art, //letter writing, uh-huh.// F1192: //It is, it's, it,// which is sad. Lorraine, she wri- she writes to me every week //from// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Christchurch, she's eh, she rings up as well of course but ehm she's always been the, she's the letter writer //in the family.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: Mm. F1189: But then you would get them regularly and you'd get the newspapers sent to you //too.// F1192: //Yeah.// You know, all tied up in the wee brown wrapper thing, mm. //Mm.// F1189: //Did you look// forward to that? F1192: Yeah, I did, yeah and then I used to sometimes I would get a bundle, I didn't always get them one lot at a F1189: Mm. F1192: time, I'd maybe get two or //three.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: Ron used to quite enjoy reading them as well. F1189: Did he? //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Hmm.// F1189: What did he think of them? F1192: Tsk, he thought they were, well, they were a lot bigger newspapers than they had here. F1189: Mm. F1192: But he quite liked listen- eh reading all the stuff that was going on F1189: Mm. F1192: over there. F1189: Now did you join any Scottish clubs or anything in Dunedin //when you came here?// F1192: //Eh.// I never ever joined a Scottish club or a Burns club or anything like that. [laugh] Partly because of Ron probably, because I think, like that friend Helen I was talking about, they were a couple //when we// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: came here. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: I think couples do these things together if you're both, you know, Ron wasn't really interested in... well, he was interested enough, he had Robbie, he had Burns' books //that his// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: grandfather brought from Scotland. F1189: Right, uh-huh. F1192: But it was what happened, F1189: Mm. F1192: the printworks that he worked in, they had a fire and he lost them. F1189: Oh dear. F1192: He had taken them F1189: Mmhm. F1192: in there to bind //them.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: That was his grandad. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: His mother's father came, I've said before, //from// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Kilmarnock. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And he was really sad about losing those. F1189: Well, yes. //'Cause that's three generations.// F1192: //Well there's no re-,// mm no replacing them. F1189: Uh-huh, yeah. There were lots of those sort of F1192: But I joined eh quite a school eh committees, stuff like that. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And they have Plunket, I don't know if you've heard of Plunket but it's a organisation for taking your babies to. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And eh they've cut down it a lot now, it was this eh he was called Truby King. //He was an// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: Englishman and he started this off for child //care, baby care.// F1189: //Oh yes, uh-huh.// Yes, uh-huh. F1192: And they called it eh Plunket. Because at the time it started Lord Plunket was, was he the governor general? Something like //that.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: And ehm, you took your baby along every, to be weighed and measured F1189: Mm. F1192: and the Plunket nurse came to visit you for the first six weeks. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Well they had mothers' clubs to raise funds to run the nurse's F1189: Mmhm. F1192: car, that's what it was about. Yeah, and then it was high executive. You see, they've got a lot here, they've got Gaelic society. F1189: Mm. F1192: This friend, I was talking about her, she's in the, they have a Gaelic choir. And Scottish dancing, country dancing and I actually go to folk dancing once a week and the lady that takes it, she's, the teacher, she's Scottish. But ehm. Tsk. I've never got mixed up in that because ehm, like I said before, I think if you're both from Scotland, it's different. //And Ron's// F1189: //So did you feel that// F1192: not into [laugh] F1189: That sort of thing. //Yeah.// F1192: //Yeah,// yeah. F1189: So did you feel you had to fit in, then? Ehm. //Yeah.// F1192: //Yeah, I felt// I did mm. Oh I used to get invited to go to the //Scottish// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: club but F1189: Mm. F1192: I think in the beginning I might have felt too sad about it, listening to all the Scottish music and stuff. I still feel like that sometimes. F1189: Oh did it make you cry? //[laugh]// F1192: //Yeah, yeah.// I still feel like that. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: At times. F1189: Mm. F1192: Depends what kind of mood you're in yourself, doesn't it? F1189: Mmhm, yeah. F1192: But ehm. I couldn't expect Ron to understand that. //He,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: He would try to F1189: Mm. F1192: but ehm it's not the same feeling. F1189: Well, he's, he's where he was born, he hasn't F1192: That's right, that's right. F1189: Now. F1192: And it, it leaves you a wee bit when you're here a lot of years and I know there's a lot of Scottish people that have done a lot more things than I have and said to me `Oh you know, did you see this?' and, and any, like entertainers, I used to go see them. F1189: Mm. F1192: Quite enjoyed that but that, that used to make me feel sad. F1189: Mmhm. So what kind of entertainers did you //get, now?// F1192: //Oh// singers like ehm Kenneth McKellar and, and eh Foster and Allen, //and// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: stuff like that, mmhm. But you see that music makes me feel, I don't know if it's homesickness or not, don't really know. F1189: Nostalgic, perhaps. F1192: Yeah. F1189: Mm. F1192: Yeah. F1189: Now, what about things like, since you mention Kenneth McKellar, ehm, you know, the winter holidays that we have in Scotland that eh, Hogmanay, Christmas and, F1192: Mm. F1189: and //Guy// F1192: //I miss// F1189: Fawkes. F1192: I missed Hogmanay and well, Scots, well I don't know what they do now, but F1189: Mmhm. F1192: they didn't used to celebrate Christmas as much. //It was always Hogmanay// F1189: //Hmm mm.// F1192: dinner, that, when you had a big dinner and F1189: Mm. Steak pie. F1192: Steak pie. //Yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm.// [laugh] F1192: And I sort of missed that and then the other thing was it was hot. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Hot, hot, having this great big Christmas dinner with turkey and all that stuff. But anyway, I got used to //that after a while.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: And Ron, they always celebrated New Year. F1189: Mm. F1192: Tsk eh What do they call it? New Year's Eve. //Well.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: Hogmanay to me. F1189: Mmhm. We were talking about Hogmanay there and you said that ehm New Zealanders, well your husband's family, still celebrated Hogmanay //when you// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: came here. //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Yes,// they did, mm and Ron F1189: Did they call it that? F1192: Uh they call it New Year's Eve. F1189: Right. //Uh-huh// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: uh-huh. F1192: And, but Ron used to go first-footing. //Mm.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: Becau-, I don't know if it's something to do with, well, Dunedin is supposed to be the Scottish city, well it is. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Well, it was F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And probably partly from his mother as well, that's what they'd done. F1189: 'Cause your husband is, his grandparents were Scottish, then. F1192: Mmhm. F1189: Yes. F1192: They, his, on his mother's side, his granny F1189: Mm. F1192: she was a New, F1189: Mm. F1192: born New Zealander, first generation. F1189: Mm. F1192: She was one of the first white children born here on the peninsula //where you went// F1189: //Really?// //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: //the other day, they were// all Maori families down there at that time. And then the f- grandfather came //from// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Scotland and the other two they came One came from Peebles, the Ritchies. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Peebles and eh Forfar. F1189: Right. //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Mm.// So they were all, he only knew his mother's parents, mm. F1189: Now, did they call it first-footing, then? F1192: First-footing, yeah they did //call it that, mm.// F1189: //They did, uh-huh uh-huh.// And, and you said it w-, it was like back home in Thornton. F1192: Yeah, well his mum had the bottles on the table though she didn't drink any of it. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: She [laugh], she led the ehm, had the bottle of //sherry and// F1189: //Mmhm uh-huh.// F1192: some other //whisky or something.// F1189: //Mmhm hmm.// F1192: And cake and //stuff, mm.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm// mmhm. So they're similar, really, F1192: Mm. F1189: would you say, to, to back home? F1192: But it was hot hot //hot weather.// F1189: //Yeah.// Well, you [laugh]. How did you like the weather when you came here? F1192: Yeah, I f-, I liked, very similar in the winter to home, really ehm. Tsk. When we have sn-, usually, when they have snow in Dunedin. F1189: Mm mmhm. F1192: It lies for about two days and of //course// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: I'd be saying `Oh I used to go to school for six weeks in the snow. F1189: [giggle] F1192: When it was frozen, we did, and we used to wear socks over our shoes so you didn't fall. But ehm. I felt it at times colder here 'cause we've got a, as Ron said `Well it's coming up from Antarctica, there's no mountains on that end to stop it. F1189: It's quite odd, isn't it? //[inaudible].// F1192: //Mm, yes.// And it's ehm I used to feel cold here and then when I thought back. Ehm. When you were living at home, when you went home the house was warm with a fire and your tea was ready. When you went home here from work [laugh], stone cold house and you had to cook the tea. So //you can't really compare it.// F1189: //It's a big change// F1192: [laugh] F1189: And you said that the shops weren't open either. //Ehm.// F1192: //No,// no. Not late, they were open, well you, people, Friday was the big shopping day in town and then there used to be the odd dairy open but they were selling food they weren't allowed to sell like potatoes //and// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: they could sell milk but they had this bit //screened off.// F1189: //Mmhm mm.// F1192: It was all daft, really. To me it was. F1189: Did you complain a bit, Margaret? //Or// F1192: //Me?// F1189: did your m- your lip buttoned? F1192: Yeah, I didn't say much. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: There was too many of them. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: But everybody remarked on it that came from home, it was just ehm F1189: Now, if //you'd done some// F1192: //But it was a bit// like a sleepy hollow. //But it was// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: quite nice too, if you know. I mean now you can go to the supermarket any hour of the day //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// Yes, uh-huh. //Yes.// F1192: //And you see// peo-, New Zealanders used to people that had cribs and batches as they called them, [?]hovely[/?] houses, they went away on a Friday night, or late Friday afternoon and came home on Sunday, you know, they had weekends. No-one worked. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Well, farmers and nurses, obviously. F1189: So this is them going to their, their, their but `n bens? //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Mm mm.// //We had one up// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: in Twizel. F1189: Uh-huh //uh-huh.// F1192: //Eh,// it was quite a nice place, //so it was,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Mm, we had it for sixteen years. But then it got, it was three hours' drive from here, way out in the [inaudible] country. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Beautiful, right up by the mountains, it was lovely. But ehm, it became a lot of work because it was wooden, it had to be painted. Chopping wood. It just got too much looking after two places. F1189: Did, did you take your children there, then? F1192: Mm, our children were older when we bought it but our grandchildren F1189: Mm. F1192: had a lovely time. F1189: Now you said you, you didn't join any clubs or anything but did you seek out other Scottish people anywhere? No? //Were there none?// F1192: //No.// There was, there was plenty here. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But I didn't make a point, I didn't, I made most of the ladies I met were, on, I used to, I went to kindergarten, //once the kids went to// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: kindergarten, I joined that //club as// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: well so I met a lot of mothers there. And there was the odd Scot but I didn't particularly F1189: Right, //uh-huh.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: So you must have been settling //in a wee bit, hmm.// F1192: //And then people were a wee bit,// in those days in the early fifties F1189: Mm. F1192: people were still here, you know, as they say, `You're an immigrant.' F1189: Mmhm mmhm. F1192: Maybe not to your face F1189: Mm. F1192: but them. F1189: Mm. F1192: Well what, you know, New Zealanders call English Poms. //And then Ron,// F1189: //[laugh]// //Uh-huh.// F1192: //he went,// when he'd just got //married to// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: me, he //said// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: `Oh, I hear you married a Pom,' you know [sniff]. Scots are not //Poms.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// //[laugh]// F1192: //[laugh]// F1189: Was there any distinguishing, then, between Scots and English ehm, over here? F1192: [sniff] F1189: [laugh] F1192: Yes. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: I should say no more than that. //But [laugh], no er they're// F1189: //Oh, right, uh-huh, ok [laugh].// F1192: Mm. English complain a lot more //about things// F1189: //Yes.// F1192: and about conditions. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then people say `Well, you know what to do.' F1189: Mmhm. Go home. F1192: Mmhm. F1189: But you can't blame them. //[laugh] Uh-huh.// F1192: //You can't blame them, no, no it's...// So I s-stayed away //from all.// F1189: //Mmhm.// I just wondered if Scots had maybe had a, a slightly easier time of it, really //in, in that// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: respect, because this is a very Scottish place. F1192: Mm. Could be. F1189: Mm. F1192: Yeah. F1189: Mm. Now, you said, sorry, go on. //[laugh]// F1192: //No no.// There, there are Scots //that// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: moan as well, as //you know.// F1189: //[laugh]// //Aye, they're good at moaning actually.// F1192: //[laugh]// Yes, but ehm F1189: Mm. F1192: that's what the English got the name of, you know. F1189: Now, you said you got a calendar every year. F1192: Mmhm. F1189: Ehm. Did you keep those calendars at all? F1192: Well, I did for quite a while and then threw them out //but// F1189: //Yeah.// F1192: I used to, F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: you know, enjoy looking at them, the F1189: Mm. F1192: ehm. the Courier, they put them out and then the Scotsman. F1189: Mm. F1192: It was a really nice one. //There was// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: quite a few that //came out.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm// mmhm. F1192: Mm. F1189: Did you buy The Scotsman here, Margaret, //ever?// F1192: //No.// F1189: No, it was //sent?// F1192: //No.// F1189: Newspapers were sent. F1192: Yeah, they sent them. //Mm.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Now, did you have your children quite quickly ehm after you got married? F1192: Er, yeah, I, Anne, was married eighteen months. //after.// F1189: //Mm// mmhm mmhm. F1192: We were born, married in fifty-four, she was born in fifty-six then Duncan in fifty- //seven.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm// mmhm. F1192: And then Lorraine in fifty-nine. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then I had a gap, I don't know what happened but Linda came in sixty- //three [laugh].// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: And then Grant //in sixty-// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: four. F1189: Oh, well, just as well maybe you //need to have a bit// F1192: //Yeah.// //I needed that, mm.// F1189: //of a rest [laugh].// Did you tell your children stories at all about F1192: Mm. F1189: Scotland, //about home?// F1192: //Used to// read a lot of books to my children. F1189: Uh-huh //uh-huh.// F1192: //Yeah.// They all had, they're interested in books and F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Ron always read to them every night. F1189: Mmhm. Did he? What kind of things? F1192: Oh well the, the big books in those days were the Noddy books //[laugh]// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: And I believe some of that's banned now. F1189: It is. //[laugh]// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Well, specifically the gollywogs. F1192: Yeah, that's right. F1189: Uh-huh [laugh]. F1192: But ehm quite a lot of that and then they, they were, when they went to school, they went to the library. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: You know, they had a library day. F1189: Mmhm //mmhm.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Now they're very British stories those Noddy books, really, they were written by Enid Blyton //and she's a// F1192: //Enid Blyton.// F1189: very English, I should say, more, more specifically. //How did// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: your children respond to those stories `cause they're New Zealanders, aren't they? F1192: Yeah, I think they enjoyed them. //Mm.// F1189: //Mm// mmhm. F1192: Yeah, a, a lot of the books were English //books,// F1189: //Mm// mmhm mm. //Yes.// F1192: //that they// had //here.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Mm. F1189: Did you go into the library at all in, in Dunedin? F1192: Yeah, they went to the store and then we used to go to the public library as well F1189: Mmhm. F1192: when they were old enough to go on the bus. //[laugh]// F1189: //Mmhm.// Did you ever go down there? F1192: Mm. And they used to have ehm good, during the school holidays at the public library F1189: Mmhm. F1192: they always had story time F1189: Mmhm. F1192: there. Didn't take them every day //but they used to enjoy that.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mm.// F1192: There was a, a reader there. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Mm. F1189: So, you took your children into, into the public library. F1192: Mm //mm.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// What about yourself? Did you ever go and //have a look?// F1192: //No.// [laugh] I sort of stayed there where //the children's [inaudible] mm.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Uh-huh. F1192: I went, my children, I probably encouraged them more to have books and things that, mmhm than I had myself. F1189: Mm. Now, wh-why would that be do you think? F1192: Ehm. Well, probably I realised when I got older that I-, perhaps I hadn't spent more time reading. F1189: Mm. F1192: And, you know, I've read books now that probably I should have read years ago. F1189: So you've come back to reading then. F1192: Yes, yeah. //Well, the thing is, when you retire// F1189: //Wait for [inaudible].// F1192: you've got a lot more time. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. Now, could I ask you, I'm going to ask you about the reading you do now or since you retired. F1192: Mm. F1189: But first of all. Now, we had another wee break there and I can't remember where we, we, we finished off but I did want to ask you anyway, Margaret ehm about such as things as tartan //and// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: and that kind of thing 'cause I've noticed there is a Scots shop //in// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: Dunedin. Ehm, how do you feel about all that now? //[laugh] Do you? [laugh]// F1192: //Yeah, I love tartan, I still love tartan.// Eh I've got a kilt somewhere. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But it doesn't fit me anymore. F1189: [giggle] F1192: 'Cause I used to be about this size, now I'm that size. F1189: Oh no, no, no. But what I'm holding here, you see, is a little ehm tartan-bound edition of Robert Burns, which you were telling me, Margaret, was gifted to you. //ehm when er// F1192: //Yes, by this// ehm F1189: an elderly resident of //the, the home that// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: you worked in died. Ehm and I would say, it's a, it was printed by Collins and I would say it's probably post-war actually. F1192: Mm. F1189: Ehm there's no date in it. Got some eh colour plates in it of, no, black and white plates rather, of the Brig o' Doon in Ayr. [laugh] And you've kept that for a while by the looks of things. In it's, //it's tartan// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: cover, uh-huh. Are you fond of that kind of thing? F1192: Yeah, I do. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: I like the feel of it and I like reading things //in it.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Do you? F1192: Occasionally. //Yeah.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// D-do you read through the likes of Burns? Do you know any of it erm off by heart? F1192: Not a lot, no. F1189: Mm. F1192: I know a lot of the verses. We did learn a wee bit //when we were at// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: eh I think more //primary school but// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: I can't remember F1189: Yeah. F1192: a lot of the F1189: Mmhm. F1192: words, //you know.// F1189: //Mm// mmhm. Mm that's interesting. Now, ehm one of the other ways that you could keep in touch with all this kind of Scottish culture, apart from reading about it, //in the likes of// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Burns, is the television. F1192: Mm. F1189: Now, you didn't have a television before you left Scotland. F1192: No. F1189: Did you get one pretty soon after you came //here?// F1192: //No.// Ehm of course I //came here// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: a lot later. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But er Grant was, he told everyone we got it for his birthday, //it was black and white of course,// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1192: And he was seven and he was born in sixty-four. Seventy-one before we had a TV. F1189: Was it really? F1192: Yeah. But eh it was Our kids later on, //there was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: three of them at //high school then.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: Or Dunc- er or Anne might have just started high //school.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: And they reckoned it was good that they didn't have TV be- //for doing homework,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm// mmhm. F1192: which //a lot of people had bought, yeah.// F1189: //That was probably right uh-huh mmhm.// F1192: They, they had friends that had it so they used to //pick a// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: programme and see and the kids would //invite them to// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: go and have a look. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But I think it was probably quite good for them. //For// F1189: //Yeah,// uh-huh. F1192: their learning. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Mm. F1189: Now that is quite late, nineteen seventy- //one, I mean I'd// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: say most people in the UK //would've, definitely, yes, had had them a while by,// F1192: //Had them long before that.// F1189: by then. Was that more usual here then, that people didn't have television. F1192: More what? //Sorry.// F1189: //More usual// here, I mean were //were you unusual// F1192: //Oh if// F1189: in not having a telly or, or F1192: Yeah, //probably a// F1189: //Were most// F1192: bit unusual. //Mm.// F1189: //Mm right.// F1192: But we eventually got, there was things that we felt //we needed// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: more. F1189: Mmhm //mmhm.// F1192: //Mm.// And we've always eh really liked music //so we// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: used to always, that's the first thing I do when I get up, //put the radio// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: on. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And now I put the TV on because of the news //and it// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: gives you the weather. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But I usually go away and do something else and miss //it anyway.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm [laugh]. F1192: But, you know, it and ehm but on the radio there's a local, there's more than one, but there's a local programme //that// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: tells you what's happening //in// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: mm. F1189: Now, did you ever listen to the likes of the BBC World service //on the radio?// F1192: //Yeah, there's// eh quite a bit in, oh I went through a spell that I couldn't sleep //and I// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: used to get up because BBC comes on at, on TV One, our TV One, it comes on at half twelve and goes right through till six in the morning. F1189: No! //I didn't know that, does it?// F1192: //Yeah, you turn on// //TV One// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: if you're still up at //half// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: past //twelve, mm.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// //And is that the// F1192: //Goes right// through the night here, it's all the different they give you the different weather in the different parts of //the world.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: And all the programme that you would //see at home, mm.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// I know Coronation Street is on. //Yeah uh-huh.// F1192: //Yeah, it's on// but it's about six months behind //or something like that.// F1189: //Mm mmhm// //mmhm.// F1192: //I wa-// I quite like Coronation //Street.// F1189: //Do you?// F1192: I'm a bit of a fan. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: Ron thinks it's painful //but anyway that's nice.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// What about any particular Scottish broadcasting like eh ehm I'm thinking of the likes of Taggart. Ehm programmes like that. F1192: Yeah, used to watch that, loved //that.// F1189: //Mmhm// //mmhm.// F1192: //And// ehm tsk you know the one that eh Coltrane was in, the big guy. F1189: Oh Robbie Coltrane, //yes, uh-huh ehm the...// F1192: //-Trane, yeah, really liked him.// F1189: oh what was it called? I can't remember now. F1192: I've forgotten the name of it, we used to watch all //that.// F1189: //He's a// forensic psychologist. //Yes,// F1192: //Mm.// //But// F1189: //uh-huh.// F1192: Taggart, he was really F1189: Mmhm. F1192: out on his own. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And then they put some ehm programmes in that he wasn't in anymore. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: You know, they sort of finished off the //series// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: but it wasn't the same. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: I liked the girl in that. F1189: Mmhm. Did you? //[laugh]// F1192: //Yeah.// //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: She was, I think she was Glasgow, she sounded //a bit like it.// F1189: //Ehm I think that's// Blythe Duff. F1192: Hmm? F1189: Blythe Duff, //her name is.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh. Ehm anything else? //Mm.// F1192: //Can't think of any other// Scottish ones. //There's// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: entertainers, probably. F1189: Mm. F1192: Ehm. We don't really get a lot of Scottish, well we haven't got Sky. F1189: Mm. F1192: If you had //Sky// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: you'd be able to F1189: Mmhm. F1192: get something out of that. //Mm.// F1189: //Mm.// I just wondered if ehm, you know, in watching these programmes ehm a lot of them are ehm based on books //and// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: novels, some of the British programmes and some of them have later been made into books, the likes of Taggart, I think, //there's a,// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: a series of books about them. //Have you ever// F1192: //Oh got// books about them. F1189: Uh-huh //uh-huh.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Ehm have you ever ehm been tempted to read anything like that after watching it on //the television? Mm.// F1192: //Yeah, I have, I have.// But it's ehm well, you've got so many different ehm channels //there, haven't you?// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: But we've ehm, I've said we haven't got Sky because you can get into, you know, there's history channels //and all different channels.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm// mmhm. F1192: We haven't got it. F1189: [laugh] Ehm. So you haven't read anything that you maybe first saw on the television that you've //gone off and got// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: the book? [sniff] F1192: Can't think of things off-hand. Oh I've watched eh Braveheart, it was really good, I liked //that. [laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: I had a, a great-grandfather that was called William Wallace. //No// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: relation //though! [laugh]// F1189: //Ah right, I'm sure not [laugh].// Uh-huh. Now when did you first go back home to, to Scotland? F1192: Ehm I came here in fifty-four and I went home in seventy-four. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Mm. And it was all, there was all motorways and, you know, when I my sister lived in [inaudible] F1189: Mmhm. F1192: and so Thornton had been bypassed. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And it, when it was, on this bus, I went in the bus from London. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And I thought Thornton was way down here going over this bridge. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: [inaudible] and I thought `Where are we going?' although Mum had written and told me all about it //and so// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: we had to go up to Glenrothes and then my niece's husband brought me back there. But I felt quite sad because they isolated a lot of these places F1189: Mmhm. F1192: with those bypasses, //didn't they?// F1189: //Mmhm.// Yes, //uh-huh.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: So you, you saw changes then? F1192: Oh big changes, mm. And of course, a lot of friends gone. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And seing my sister's children for the first time. //That was exciting.// F1189: //Did you take any of your// children home with you? F1192: No. F1189: No. F1192: But they've ehm. Eh Anne, the eldest, she's been for the first time when we went to Duncan's //wedding// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: six years ago, she was forty something. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But Duncan and Lorraine, they both went, they did their OEs F1189: Mm. F1192: ehm Lorraine was, had her twenty-first birthday with her granny. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. F1192: And ehm she was working in Edinburgh and she went across there for it and Duncan he had his twentieth //birthday// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: with his granny, he cycled through quite a bit of F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Britain. F1189: Mmhm. //Now, tell// F1192: //Ehm.// F1189: me about this OEs. //I've heard this.// F1192: //Oh, just// overseas experience F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: but that's //what they call// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: it //OE.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// //And what does that// F1192: //And some// people do it older than others. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// But i-it's a strange expression, I think. F1192: It is. F1189: Ehm. F1192: Different. F1189: Rather than just travelling. //It's// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: that somehow or other F1192: It's young, it's, well I think it's probably varsity students and that that //started off// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: calling it that. //Yeah but they call// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: it their //OE.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: But now there's people that go that are much older than teenagers, //you know, yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm// mmhm. F1192: It is I suppose, I don't think about it anymore //because// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: got used to it. F1189: Was it always called that? F1192: I don't //know.// F1189: //OE.// F1192: Well, when I first came here, New Zealanders weren't travelling nearly //as much as// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: they do now. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Er well, there wasn't too many planes F1189: Mm. F1192: so, and they didn't really go by boat F1189: Mmhm. F1192: out of here just //to// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: have a look. But a lot of it now ehm, some of it, they've probably got English parents //or// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: that's really what took my kids to Scotland, I think, the fact that their granny was there //and my// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: sister //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: relatives they'd never seen. Mm. F1189: So it, it is a bit like, well, not going home exactly but going //back to your// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: roots. F1192: Yeah. It is, yeah. And ehm they're not into genealogy but they know Right, Ron's, we've got the Ritchies away back to the seventeen-hundreds. F1189: Mm mmhm. F1192: Eh and his sister was really into genealogy but they keep telling me I should do something. And I had a cousin, `cause they don't know anything about me really. F1189: Mm. F1192: [inaudible] from and then Ron always says `Oh I'm quite happy just to know about my great granny and F1189: Mmhm. F1192: but you should really go back. F1189: Do you think so? F1192: In some ways but then there's, you always find skeletons //in the cupboard in// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: most families. Maybe stuff you don't want to know but ehm I never knew one of my grandfathers 'cause he had died before I was born. But I knew my other, my father's parents. I remember them quite well which is quite nice. F1189: Do you think that matters more to you because you've emigrated? F1192: I think so, I think it's I, I think that grandparents are important in your life. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: My children eh, well my mother was in Scotland but they knew a lot about her. And then she came here and then they went there and, but ehm. and they knew Ron's mum. //She was// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: nana. //Mm.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: [third person asks if they've almost finished] F1189: It's alright, it's alright Ron, don't worry. Now, tell me how did you get back that time you went home, how did you get back to S-, to the UK? How did you travel this time? F1192: Yeah, I flew. F1189: You flew. //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Mm.// And I flew by, it was more common to fly by the States //then.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: Eh, I don't know if it was cheaper or not but I flew back ehm flew to, you usually had to fly to Sydney and then to the //States.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: You went to Hawaii. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Los Angeles F1189: Mm. F1192: because in those days in New Zealand, they only travelled as far, that was a return //trip.// F1189: //Mm// mmhm. Yes. F1192: Eh Auckland to Los Angeles and back. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then their hostesses F1189: Mmhm. F1192: I got this //news from a hostess.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: They never went any further. //Then it// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: changed F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: flight people, then I had to get on a British Airways plane. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Flew to New York. //It was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: all quite an experience in this //Los Angeles airport ehm.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: And then New York. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And then London. F1189: In some ways harder than getting on a boat. F1192: It is, yeah, once you're on the bo-boat you're there to stay. F1189: And did you do that on your own or did Ron go with you? F1192: I went on my own. //Couldn't// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: afford for two to //go.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// I know, it was //a lot of money, mmhm.// F1192: //And the second time I went// in eighty-three. F1189: Mm. F1192: Ehm on the way back I flew to Sydney. I think it was Singapore and Sydney. And I met my uncle that I hadn't seen for twenty-eight years and I stayed four nights in //Sydney with him.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: So that was really good. My auntie had died by then but ehm. They're the ones we were talking about before. Yeah, so that was really good and then I went in eighty-three. Went the other way. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Mm. F1189: Now, all that travelling, did you read? Are you the sort of person who takes a book with you F1192: No. //I got// F1189: //when you're travelling?// F1192: ehm you know, they give out magazines and stuff like //that.// F1189: //Uh-huh// uh-huh. F1192: And watched I don' think there was many movies when I first, first time I went. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But ehm. F1189: So you didn't take a book? F1192: I didn't //take a book, no.// F1189: //No [laugh].// Did you bring any back? F1192: No. //[giggle]// F1189: //No.// Oh, you did bring one 'cause, now where have we, where did we put it? You showed me it a wee minute ago, that was the, the Patter book. F1192: Mm. F1189: Ehm. F1192: Yeah, that was, F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: that was later on again. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: I don't know where I put it. F1189: [exhale] F1192: Did I give it to you? That was my niece that //gave me that.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Did she give you that when //you were over there?// F1192: //When I was leaving.// //Mm.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: Oh. F1189: Oh, we'll find it, don't worry about it ehm. So you brought that one back. Ehm [laugh]. //[laugh]// F1192: //Pop that on there.// F1189: Now, I think we probably should move on and talk about what you read now because you've told me, Margaret, that, that you read a lot more now that //you're retired, mmhm.// F1192: //Well, I read a bit more but I'm not// F1189: [throat] F1192: a great reader but I'm reading that book at //the moment and I was// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: I read F1189: Now this is eh Philippa Gregory, "The Other Boleyn Girl". F1192: Mm. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: I'm still getting through that. //[laugh]// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: And there's a boo-, I'm trying to remember her name. Jenny Pattrick who's a New Zealand writer. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And she wrote two really good books F1189: Mmhm. F1192: about ehm mining, early mining on the west coast //which// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: was pretty tough. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And that was in the eighteen-hundreds, //it must// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: have been, and they were really interesting. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then she wrote another book but I didn't enjoy it as much. And Linda gave me those 'cause she lived on the coast. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: But that Jenny Pattrick, th-that's not as good as, as her other stories. F1189: Oh, //yes, right.// F1192: //Because they had a big,// //they had a big// F1189: //I've// F1192: mining disaster over the //year.// F1189: //Mmhm.// I've heard of this author. Ehm and she's a New Zealand author. F1192: She's a New //Zealander.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: Mm. F1189: Is this something quite recent for you? //That you're reading,// F1192: //Yeah, fairly,// fairly recent. //Yeah.// F1189: //you're reading// New Zealand authors. Ehm 'cause the likes of Philippa Gregory, she, she's British. F1192: Yeah, that's //right.// F1189: //Ehm.// F1192: Mmhm. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: But these were, well I think Linda was interested because she was living on the coast //but they had// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: really hard //times these// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: women and //these// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: mines, they lived in these terrible //conditions and// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// //Now this// F1192: //They were// from all over Europe, they were eh Irish, F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Germans, Yugoslavs, mm. F1189: So in a way you're reading about the history of, //of immigration here, uh-huh.// F1192: //Yes, yes, mm.// F1189: Are you interested in that? F1192: Yeah, I am quite //interested and// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: I've read others about ehm tsk the first doctor away in the back boxes, a lady doctor F1189: Mmhm. F1192: and she wrote and she was a farmer's //wife// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: as well so she had a pretty tough life and used to ride her bike to deliver babies and stuff like that, mm, was really good. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: And then I'm trying to think of this other one that I read. //It was a,// F1189: //This one// F1192: it wasn't a New Zealand one and it was, tsk, you'll know it. F1189: Mm. F1192: Because it was about, it was about the Glasgow Blitz. F1189: Tsk, was it Meg Henderson? F1192: Could've been. Ehm and it's got a name like, when you hear, when you hear the name it sounds like it would be all Catholic, it's, what's it called? On the cover it's got a, a photo of a roof. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: You'll know it. F1189: I probably do know it, [laugh], was this a kind of family saga type of book? F1192: No, it was a, oh well it was about this //particular girl// F1189: //Mm mhmm.// F1192: and what happened to her in the Blitz. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Really sad. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: I've got it. F1189: Mmhm. //You own that book?// F1192: //But you might not have// the time, do you //want to// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: see it? F1189: I'm interested in what you are reading just now, the likes of Jenny Pattrick. F1192: Oh yeah, well I've read that. F1189: Ehm. F1192: But I'm, I'm //reading it// F1189: //Did you buy that// yourself Margaret? F1192: Mm. F1189: Did you buy that one yourself? F1192: No, one of the girls gave it //to me for Christmas or something.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Do you buy books? F1192: Not a lot, no. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: I would usually get, they say `Oh this is a really good book //Mum.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Read it and then F1189: Mmhm. F1192: give it back.' F1189: I've noticed that books in New Zealand, they're quite expensive. F1192: Very expensive. F1189: Hmm. F1192: Yeah, yeah. Look at the price on the back of that //one.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: Oh. That Philippa, //that one there.// F1189: //Gregory.// F1192: Oh, maybe it's too //hard to read.// F1189: //I can just about// see it, but I think it's twenty-nine //dollars.// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: Mmhm. //Ehm for a paperback.// F1192: //Which is a lot of money.// //Mm.// F1189: //Yes,// uh-huh. Well, th-that's about twelve pounds. F1192: Yeah. F1189: Ehm and this book would cost you maybe seven pounds //in the// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: UK so //they are a lot// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: more expensive. Ehm. So you're very wise you get your family to //buy them.// F1192: //[laugh]// F1189: One of the things that people do back home though, ehm, is they, to get round the expense of books, is they buy them in charity shops. F1192: Mm. F1189: Do you know if any //of that goes on here?// F1192: //Oh, yes, yeah.// They have them, they have them here. //Yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: And there's a really good ehm second hand place down in the Gardens Mall there. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: You know, where [?]you came[/?]. Did you get off the bus at the bottom or did you walk all the way? F1189: Ehm, I got off the bus at the bottom, yes, uh-huh. But I did pass a, a Salvation Army F1192: Mm. F1189: second hand shop //ehm// F1192: //Mm.// //They haven't got books// F1189: //on the way here.// F1192: in there but they've F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: across the road and there are some more where the F1189: Mmhm. F1192: New World is and um they've got a really good one in there. F1189: Would you ever buy books in a second hand shop? F1192: Yeah, probably would if I thought they were in quite good condition. F1189: Mmhm //mmhm.// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: Do you know how much they might cost in, in the second hand shop here? F1192: Oh, probably you could get one for five dollars //or// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: mm. F1189: But that's a, that's a big saving, //isn't it?// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Uh-huh. //And ehm.// F1192: //It is.// F1189: Since you don't really buy books then, you, you get them as a gift. //Do you use the library at all?// F1192: //Mm, yeah, yeah.// I've got another, ehm, do you know Fay Weldon? F1189: Yes, uh-huh uh-huh. F1192: I've got one of hers //there too.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: That's passed on from Lorraine as well. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: Lorraine would just love to meet you. I've told you all about her, shame she doesn't live in Dunedin. F1189: Lorraine's your, your oldest daughter, //is that right?// F1192: //No, she's// the middle one F1189: Middle one. //Right.// F1192: //Mm.// //She's// F1189: //Oh, right// F1192: the doing it, the one that's doing research. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: I really enjoyed that book. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Oh, there's one that someone lent me. F1189: Uh-huh. Right, this one's Mary Stewart. F1192: Yeah. F1189: Ehm. And this is about Scotland, [laugh]. F1192: Yeah, //yeah.// F1189: //This is a// story set in the Hebrides. //Ehm.// F1192: //Now there's// This is the one F1189: This is more Jenny Pattrick. F1192: Yeah, that's, that's the first one. //"Denniston// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: Rose" and it's about that //wee girl that has a// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: really hard time as a mining child. F1189: Now, I, I happen to know that this had been a very popular book in New Zealand. F1192: It's what? F1189: That this book called The "Denniston Rose" This had been a very popular book //in New// F1192: //Oh it has.// F1189: Zealand. //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Mm.// And there was a second one which I haven't got. But I'll find this one about the... I've got a few Catherine Cookson but they're all the same, aren't they? //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// I'll just pause this for a wee minute, okay? Now, I'm just looking here at a pile of books that you've, that you've read recently, Margaret. Two of them ehm by Jenny Pattrick who's well-known New Zealand novelist ehm and she's writing, you know, stories about immigrants in the past, really ehm. One book here by Mary Stewart, which is a Hebridean tale, a, a fictional story. Did you enjoy that one? F1192: Tsk, oh, not over much. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// What was wrong with it? F1192: Eh. Well, it was quite a good //story// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: but it was eh. Didn't seem too real. //[laugh]// F1189: //Realistic.// Did you, do you think this is the sort of ehm, mm, sort of Hollywood eh //version of Scotland?// F1192: //Yeah, it is a bit.// //Mm mm.// F1189: //Uh-huh, yes.// Uh-huh. Ehm. //I know what you mean.// F1192: //'Cause American// books are like that, //aren't they?// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: I mean the American stories. F1189: Yes, uh-huh. Now, this, this is an interesting one I've got here which is 'Auto da Fay' by Fay Weldon and I had forgotten but, but she grew up in New Zealand. //Ehm.// F1192: //Mmhm.// F1189: Is that right, uh-huh, have you read this one? F1192: Tsk, yeah. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: I, I haven't read it recently. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: But I quite enjoyed it when I //read it// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: and then Lorraine, I got another one but I didn't like it. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Which usually happens. F1189: Uh-huh. Which one was that that you didn't like? F1192: Mm. F1189: Which was one was that that you didn't like? //Can't remember, [laugh]// F1192: //Can't remember, [laugh].// F1189: [laugh]. She's written quite a few. F1192: Mm. F1189: Ehm. F1192: There might be the names on the front there. F1189: Well, she's best known for the, "The Lifes and Loves of a She-devil". F1192: Tsk, oh yes. I've read some of that. F1189: Uh-huh //uh-huh.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Not your cup of tea, this, this is kind of autobiographical this //one though.// F1192: //Mm.// I've qu-, I enjoyed that one. F1189: Mmhm. And the last one we have here is a nice hardback ehm that your daughter gave to you. F1192: Mm. F1189: And F1192: It's just borrowed, hmm. F1189: and this, it's a biography of George Orwell. F1192: Mm. F1189: Uh-huh, so what did you think about this? F1192: Yeah, I qu-, I enjoyed that. F1189: Mmhm. What was it about this that, that, that you like? F1192: Oh, well he was a down to earth guy //really.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Eh, a bit different. F1189: Did you know about George Orwell before you, you came acro-, you knew a bit about him. //Yeah.// F1192: //Mmhm.// F1189: Ehm, so have you ever read eh //any of his// F1192: //Sorry.// F1189: Have you read any of his books? F1192: No. F1189: Uh-huh. Oh well, you might want to do that. F1192: Mm. F1189: Now I said you were nearly at the end so could I just ask you about certain Scottish authors then, to see whether or not, at any time in your life, you've read these, either back in Scotland or, //or here// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: in New Zealand. And the first one's easy because it's the poetry of Robert Burns. F1192: Mmhm. F1189: And you have read //that [laugh]// F1192: //I know that one.// //Mm.// F1189: //[laugh].// F1192: And we had lots at //home of// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: Burns. //I// F1189: //Yeah.// F1192: presume my //sister's// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: got them now. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: A lot of intr-, e-editions of them and songs. F1189: Yeah, so that's something you've brought with you. F1192: Mm. F1189: Uh-huh. Now what about ehm Walter Scott. F1192: Tsk, yeah. F1189: Now when did you read them? F1192: I think at High school. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: We did some of that, mm. F1189: Do you remember any of them? F1192: Remind me. F1189: Ehm. Things like "Ivanhoe". F1192: "Ivanhoe". //Yeah.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Ehm there's a whole group of novels by Scott called the Waverley //novels.// F1192: //The Waverley// novels. //Yeah, we had some of them at home.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh, "Heart of Midlothian".// F1192: Mmhm. F1189: Uh-huh. Did you, did you have them at home? F1192: Yes. F1189: Who, who, who owned them? Were they F1192: They belonged to my father. //Mm.// F1189: //Right// uh-huh uh-huh. F1192: Eh there was something else I remembered about ehm Tsk, "The Heart of Midlothian". F1189: Mmhm. Yes, //[laugh].// F1192: //Read that book, I read that, that was,// a lot of that about Edinburgh. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Mmhm. F1189: Ehm and he also wrote poetry. F1192: Oh yes, I know. //Yeah,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: I know a lot of that poetry, learnt that at school. F1189: Mm. Can you remember any of it now? F1192: [exhale] Got to think about it. F1189: Mm. F1192: You tell me F1189: [laugh] F1192: and I'll remember. F1189: The one that sticks in my mind, that I learned at school was "The Young Lochinvar". F1192: Oh yes. F1189: The young Lochinvar has come out of the west. F1192: That's right, yeah. //On a horse.// F1189: //[laugh]// That's right //[laugh].// F1192: //That's it.// Yeah. F1189: What did you think about Scott's stories, the novels, how did you find them? F1192: Ehm. F1189: [cough] F1192: Usually sad. F1189: Mm mmhm. Did you find them easy to read? F1192: No. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: Quite difficult reading //and// F1189: //Yeah.// F1192: ehm. Just find them all fairly, I suppose that's how things were in that F1189: They're quite hard going, I t- well I think //personally.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Ehm, um Robert Louis Stevenson? F1192: Tsk, yeah. F1189: Have you ever read any of them? F1192: Yeah. Read them, read them at school too. F1189: Mmhm. But since you've been here wou-would you read anything like //that?// F1192: //No.// No, I haven't but the kids have. F1189: Tsk um, the other author I have here is Lewis Grassic Gibbon. I don't know if you've heard of him, Margaret? F1192: No. F1189: He wrote a ehm some books called "A Scots Quair". F1192: Hmm. F1189: The first of which was "Sunset Song" and it, and it was made for television at one point. Don't know that one. //That's fine.// F1192: //No.// F1189: John Buchan? F1192: Yes. //John Buchan.// F1189: //[laugh].// F1192: "Thirty-Nine Steps". //[laugh].// F1189: //[laugh].// F1192: That's Kirk- the thirty-nine steps are in Kirkcaldy that's how I know that. //'Cause I used to walk up// F1189: //Ah right, uh-huh.// F1192: and down them F1189: [laugh] F1192: because they were, it was a shortcut to //our High school.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm// //mmhm.// F1192: //Leaving// for school used to walk down, they were always covered in sand and yeah. Know that one really well. F1189: And di- and //did you...// F1192: //I've read that a few times.// F1189: Have you? //Right, so// F1192: //Yeah.// F1189: when was the last time you read it? F1192: I think I've read it once since I came //here.// F1189: //Mm.// F1192: Found it, I must have found it for a while I worked in that Salvation Army shop //and they used// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: to have the odd books that //came in.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// F1192: I don't think I've got it now. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But I love that story. F1189: Mmhm. //Did you?// F1192: //Yeah.// //Yeah.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Did F1192: Partly because it was local to me. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: Mmhm. F1189: And when did you first read it then? F1192: Tsk. Mm. Probably early teens or mm can't remember what age. F1189: And where would you have been likely to get that? F1192: It might have been somewhere, one that was in our home. F1189: Mm mmhm. F1192: Think so, probably my father had bought it. F1189: Mm mmhm. He wrote a lot of books, erm, John Buchan. Ehm can you recall any of the others? F1192: Mm. F1189: No. I can't either so don't worry about //it [laugh].// F1192: //[laugh].// F1189: Eh Neil Munro? F1192: No. F1189: No, don't know that one. Ehm A.J. Cronin? F1192: Yes. F1189: Remember any of them? "Hatter's Castle". No. F1192: Mmhm. F1189: You remember that one? F1192: Yeah, //I remember// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: that. F1189: Ehm. But he's obviously not someone who's stuck in your, stuck in your mind //then.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Ehm. Any other Scottish authors that you can think of that you, that you read either back in Scotland or since you've come here? F1192: Tsk was there someone that used to write sto-, well there would be, about the Isles about eh, you know, Barra and the Hebrides? F1189: Mmhm. Oh there probably was. F1192: No, no but I can't remember //the name of them.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// Don't worry it'll come back to you, you're probably getting tired now, F1192: Mm. F1189: we've been talking a long time. Now, one that you might like then is, is, are the novels of eh Margaret Thomson Davis. Do you know that name? F1192: I don't know the name, no. F1189: Well you could maybe look out for them 'cause I think you'd like them, Margaret, as they're all about ehm Glasgow //in the past.// F1192: //Oh right.// F1189: Tsk ehm George MacDonald Fraser? F1192: No. F1189: No. Now, there are also in Scotland at the moment some quite popular eh detective novels. F1192: Oh. F1189: Would you read any of that kind of fiction? F1192: Oh yes I F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: might read the odd one. F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: Mm. F1189: Do you read any ehm detective novels? F1192: I have done. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Hmm. But ehm there are some, something in one of these eh, one of the things you sent F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: It was something about woman detective. F1189: A woman detective. F1192: Ladies' detective. F1189: Oh, Alexander McCall Smith. F1192: Mmhm. F1189: Uh-huh. Have you read them? F1192: I've read some of that, mmhm. F1189: And what do you think about Alexander McCall Smith? F1192: Yeah, I liked that. F1189: Uh-huh. That's "The Number One Ladies' Detective" F1192: That's it, Mmhm. //Mmhm.// F1189: //[laugh]// Have you seen it on television as well? F1192: I've seen some of it. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Mm. F1189: Ehm, he's written other ehm series of books, ehm, some of them are set in Edinburgh. Have you read any of them? F1192: Tsk, no, I don't think so. F1189: Well you'll need to put them on your Christmas list then, Margaret. For your daughters. F1192: Right, and what are, what are they called? F1189: Ehm. Off the top of my, "Scotland Street", I think they're called "Scotland Street". Ehm. F1192: "Scotland //Street"?// F1189: //Yes,// Uh-huh. F1192: Right. F1189: Ehm, I haven't read them myself, I'm giving away my ignorance here. Ehm. Now a lot of the others you've mentioned to me like the Beano and the Sunday Post and what not so, ehm. There's only one that you didn't mention throughout your whole interview and that's the Scots Magazine. And I have seen some copies of that since I've been in F1192: Yes, //I have seen it// F1189: //New Zealand.// F1192: and I, I've actually got some there //that I// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: passed on //from// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Duncan, he's got a Scottish neighbour F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: in //Wanaka.// F1189: //Uh-huh// uh-huh. F1192: And she sent me these //down.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: They're quite interesting. F1189: Uh-huh. You like them, do you? F1192: Yeah. F1189: 'Cause the, the F1192: They're the ones about that book. F1189: That's right. //Uh-huh.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Ehm. They've got short stories in them sometimes but also journalistic and //articles.// F1192: //Oh, yeah and// advertising different, F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: where you can go for your holidays. F1189: Uh-huh uh-huh, now you mentioned holidays that use-, you used to take. up at your, your house in the country, F1192: Yeah. //Twizel.// F1189: //as it were.// F1192: Mm. F1189: And you've been back home to the UK. Have you ever been overseas to any other places on, on holiday? F1192: No. F1189: No. F1192: No. Just Australia from here, I've never been, F1189: Uh-huh. F1192: when I left home, people weren't going to Europe. F1189: Yes, uh-huh. F1192: Except //of// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1192: this ehm. auctioneer that I've //had// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: their eh family used to go skiing in Switzerland but, you know, they could afford it. F1189: Yes. F1192: But I mean it's quite common now, isn't //it?// F1189: //Uh-huh// uh-huh. Now you mention, you said holidays in Europe there. Do you think of Scotland now as being part of Europe? F1192: Not really. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: Not in my eyes //it's not but// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: we went ehm in nineteen ninety- //two,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: Duncan was working in //Finland,// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. F1192: doing geology stuff there, and we met up, we were going home, my mother //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: two of my sisters and eh met up with Duncan in London. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Then we crossed over to Paris on the catamaran. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And we got a rental car and Lorraine had oh she went as French pupil to Tahiti and she met this French girl who lived in Paris. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: So we went and stayed with her in //Paris// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: and then we got a rental car and we went right down through France to Switzerland. Eh, it was a sort of whirlwind. //It was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: just for two weeks //and we went// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: right over to Italy. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And Germany and Austria, just touched on them. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: And then back, well that's the first time I had been to Europe. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Mm, except eh, one of the times Ron and I went from here, you could travel eh from here to Amsterdam. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Singapore, Amsterdam and then you could fly from Amsterdam to Edinburgh. So we did that one year that we went. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: So I've been in Amsterdam [laugh] all day in the airport. F1189: You've been about. //You really have.// F1192: //[laugh]// //All day in the airport.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: That was an entertainment. //Mm.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Now airport is a place where you, you can pick up books as well. //Do you ever remember// F1192: //Oh, yes, I know.// //There's, they've// F1189: //doing that?// F1192: got really good books //at airports, haven't they?// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh// uh-huh. F1192: Mm. F1189: Have you ever bought any //in a// F1192: //No.// F1189: in an airport? No. F1192: Book stalls, well they used to have them on at Thornton F1189: Mmhm. F1192: ehm railway station. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: They used to have a book stall, they had books stalls all over the railway station. //So// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: they've still got that. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: Used to have, I can remember a big one at Waverley //at one time, yeah.// F1189: //That's right, uh-huh uh-huh.// Yes they so still have a, a W.H. Smith. F1192: 'Cause we used to wait when we used to get the train, //Waverley,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: to go to Fife. F1189: Mm. Can you remember looking at those? F1192: I remember looking at these. F1189: Mmhm //mmhm.// F1192: //Hmm.// F1189: I-it seems to me th-that you've got used in your life, Margaret, to not spending money on things like //books.// F1192: //Mm.// F1189: Is that right? F1192: That's right, yeah. //That's got something// F1189: //Where do you s-.// F1192: Well, it's not particularly books but I just ehm. As you say, they're expensive here. F1189: Mmhm. F1192: But I have got a good ehm supply from my family. //It sounds crazy but// F1189: //That's right, uh-huh uh-huh.// F1192: ehm and I've had a few life stories of nurses here and ehm. I have read Florence Nightingale years //ago.// F1189: //Mm// mmhm. F1192: And there was a lot of interesting ehm nurses in wartime F1189: Mm mmhm. F1192: here which I find quite interesting. F1189: Uh-huh. Oh you like that, that kind of ehm //biographical.// F1192: //Yeah, well they all went, these// nurses F1189: Mmhm. F1192: went oversea-, you know, did war //things// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1192: so it's quite good, quite like that. //Mm.// F1189: //Yeah.// You've been very good, can I thank you very very much. F1192: [laugh] //That's okay// F1189: //Now,// F1192: I feel //as though I've rambled on about// F1189: //for all of the help.// //No, no, you,// F1192: //nothing really.// F1189: you've been lovely to talk to. F1192: I hope I haven't held you up. F1189: I've got one last question. Ehm, could you sum up for me the place of reading ehm in your life and what it's meant for you? F1192: Say that again. F1189: Could you sum up for me the place of reading in your life //and what// F1192: //Mmhm.// F1189: it's meant to you. It's a hard one, [laugh]. F1192: Yeah, eh. Well I've probably got more enjoyment in books that I've read since I retired because I've had more time. You're busy when you retire too but probably more enjoyable and no interruptions. That's what I've found hard about reading. And I've got a lot of friends that are bed readers but I don't read in bed. Never have, it's something I don't do. F1189: Me neither. F1192: No, I go to bed to sleep. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1192: You know, I never get comfortable. I'm either moaning about it being too cold and not comfortable. But I think probably I've enjoyed books more in retirement although I don't read. I should read more, I know that. F1189: Do you think that, do you think, would you like to have been better read, Margaret? F1192: I would, I would mm but I think that ehm a lot of people read for fantasy and I've always had a big love of family and I think that people, what was I saying, haven't had exciting, exciting lives but there's always been something happening. Because there's a lot of us. Sounds crazy, I mean, when I say to people we have twenty-three people for a, ehm, Christmas and that's all family, think oh. F1189: So you've got your own real life stories //then? [laugh]// F1192: //[laugh].// I, you know, there's always something happening with someone. Hmm. F1189: Well, I think that's a good place to end and once again thank you very much, Margaret. F1192: Oh that's //alright.// F1189: //It's been a// pleasure. This work is protected by copyright. All rights reserved. The SCOTS Project and the University of Glasgow do not necessarily endorse, support or recommend the views expressed in this document. Information about document and author: Audio Audio audience For gender: Mixed Audience size: N/A Audio awareness & spontaneity Speaker awareness: N/A Degree of spontaneity: N/A Audio footage information Year of recording: 2009 Recording person id: 1189 Size (min): 154 Size (mb): 744 Audio setting Recording venue: Interviewee's home Geographic location of speech: Dunedin Audio relationship between recorder/interviewer and speakers Speakers knew each other: N/A Audio transcription information Transcriber id: 1222 Year of transcription: 2009 Year material recorded: 2009 Word count: 24558 Audio type Interview: Participant Participant details Participant id: 1189 Gender: Female Decade of birth: 1950 Educational attainment: University Age left school: 16 Occupation: Research Assistant Place of birth: Ayr Region of birth: S Ayr Birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Country of birth: Scotland Place of residence: Glasgow Region of residence: Glasgow Residence CSD dialect area: Gsw Country of residence: Scotland Father's occupation: Journeyman joiner Father's place of birth: Ayr Father's region of birth: S Ayr Father's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Father's country of birth: Scotland Mother's occupation: Domestic Mother's place of birth: Ayr Mother's region of birth: S Ayr Mother's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Mother's country of birth: Scotland Participant Participant details Participant id: 1192