SCOTS Project - www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk Document : 1677 Title : Interview with Rev. John G. Sinclair for Scottish Readers Remember Project Author(s): N/A Copyright holder(s): SAPPHIRE SCOTS Project Audio transcription F1189: It's the eighteenth of February, two thousand and nine, and I'm in Dunedin in Otago in New Zealand. Erm, and with me is the Reverend John Sinclair, who's agreed to talk with me today about his life and er his reading experiences across his lifetime. Can I thank you very much, first of all, Reverend, for agreeing to do that. We're actually in your church, which is a very historic church, and Dunedin First Church. Erm and we'll hear a bit about that, I imagine, as we go along. But could you tell me first of all, erm, when you were born and where you were born? M1194: I was born in Dunedin. My parents both come from Orkney. F1189: Mm. M1194: Er, they were married in Dunedin. And er that would be in nineteen, I was born in nineteen thirty-three. //[?]I think.[/?]// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// Right, in Dunedin then? And yet, I do detect that your voice is very, well it has a Scottish intonation. //Mm.// M1194: //Yes.// If I came home from school as a small boy and said "I saw a brown cow down the road", I was told "That's not the way English is spoken." F1189: Mm. So did your parents both come from Orkney then? //Right.// M1194: //Yes, mother,// er on both sides of her family, from the island of Westray. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: My father was born in Kirkwall, but his people really came from Caithness. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1194: My mother tended to look down on my father, because he was er an incomer, //though she was born in Dumbarton,// F1189: //Right, [laugh].// //Mmhm.// M1194: //because her father's ship.// F1189: Mmhm. M1194: and he was a er ship's master, //er was at// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: Dumbarton at the time //[inaudible], yes.// F1189: //Mmhm, right.// Uh-huh, so that's quite an interesting background then, //and a bit of moving around.// M1194: //Yes.// //Yes.// F1189: //Now you've said your// parents married here in Dunedin. Did they meet here in Dunedin? M1194: They met in Orkney, F1189: Mm. M1194: er where my mother's parents had retired. They had er been farming in Australia at one part of it. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: But he retired as commodore of the Australian Commonwealth Line in nineteen twenty-four, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: and built a house er in Saint Ola, overlooking Scapa Flow. Er, he was a very stern man, her father, who, as an old sailing ship captain, had no time for marine engineers and regarded them as the scum of the earth. And my father, being a marine engineer, he wouldn't meet him or have him in the house or anything. And eventually, my father er got work in New Zealand with the Union Steam Ship //Company, of New Zealand.// F1189: //Mm, mm.// M1194: And he sent a cable over to my mother, would she come out to New Zealand and marry him. So, er she was in a perplexing //situation, she// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: discussed it with her mother, and s- and mother said, "Well, you can't keep the man waiting, you'll have to give him some reply." So she sent back a cable in reply, simply in the language of the time, "Sure thing, kid." F1189: [laugh] M1194: And came out to New Zealand, and was married here in Dunedin. F1189: She was quite brave then. M1194: Ah, yes. //but then,// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: she had been round the world a couple of times //beforehand,// F1189: //Mm.// Mm. M1194: with her father in the sailing ship, twice around Cape //Horn in the sailing ship.// F1189: //Mm.// So you think she caught the bug then //for [inaudible]? [laugh]// M1194: //Ah, no, it wasn't a bug, er.// //[laugh] She would have been happy to have stayed in Orkney.// F1189: //[laugh]// Really? M1194: Yes. F1189: And did she ever settle here then? M1194: Ah yes. F1189: Mm. M1194: She went home again after forty years //for a holiday and enjoyed that greatly.// F1189: //Mm mm.// Mmhm? M1194: Yes. F1189: And what about your father, did he ever go //back?// M1194: //He never got back.// F1189: Mm. M1194: He was left an orphan at the age of six. F1189: Mm. M1194: And really had to make his own way //in life, and er// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: He wanted to be an artist but he had to become an engineer in order to make a living. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And first went to sea, erm as a junior engineer on the old Port Lincoln during the Great War, //carting troops and munitions across the Channel.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// What decided him on New Zealand? Was it the job, or the place, //or a combination?// M1194: //Er, the place.// He was sailing with the Union Company between here and Calcutta, F1189: Mm. M1194: and first sailed up Otago Harbour early one Sunday morning when the place was just magic, and decided that if ever the opportunity offered to settle ashore, he would try and make it Dunedin, so //that's how it came about.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// So, well the picturesqueness obviously appealed to him, and the size of the harbour, it's very impressive, but would it have been the Scottishness of the place too that might have appealed? M1194: He met quite a lot of Scottish people F1189: Mm. //Mm.// M1194: //here in Dunedin,// and they became firm friends, F1189: Mm. M1194: so that they were married at the house of some of these //friends.// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: In fact when my mother came out, erm, she came by train from Welling- er from Lyttelton //to Dunedin,// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: and father had er about six or eight people stationed along the length of the platform, //so that// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: when she got off the train knowing nobody, there would be people looking for her. F1189: Mmhm. //And they, were they Scottish people?// M1194: //[?]And some[/?].// //For the most part, yes, yeah.// F1189: //Or New Zealanders? Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: That strong Scottishness in Dunedin has diminished, markedly, //since then, yes.// F1189: //Mm, yes.// //I I've heard that's so.// M1194: //Mm.// F1189: Now, did you have brothers and sisters? M1194: A younger sister and a younger brother. F1189: Mm, so you're the oldest //child?// M1194: //Yes.// F1189: And I know how that feels, so am I. //[laugh]// M1194: //[Uh-huh], yes, yes.// F1189: Now, can you recall, your house, was it in the centre of Dunedin, by the way, or or near the port? M1194: Well, er, before I was born, er my mother was living with a family in Mornington. F1189: Mm. M1194: She had a single room. F1189: Mm. M1194: And those people took over the lease of what was called Cargill's Castle. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And ran that place as erm, er, oh, cabaret. F1189: Mm. M1194: And mother went with them, and had a room in the tower of Cargill's //Castle.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: And before I was born, she moved down from the top of the hill at St Clair, F1189: Mm. M1194: down to er a larger flat, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: er right on the coast F1189: Mmhm. //Mmhm, mmhm.// M1194: //the sea, beach, there.// So we lived there for a while. Father was still at sea, F1189: Mm. M1194: and only home //two or three weekends a year.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: Then we lived nearer the centre of town for a while. Later, out in Andersons Bay, //a seaside// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: suburb. F1189: Mm. M1194: That was the first time my father had lived in er a colonial house, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: er, it had, erm, it was a nineteen-twenties bungalow, F1189: Mm. M1194: but the walls were lined with timber //and scrim, and the newspaper on top of the scrim.// F1189: //Mmhm, mm. Mmhm.// M1194: But the the scrim was loose on the walls, and he reckoned that when the wind blew, it pushed the bed out into the middle of the room. F1189: [laugh] M1194: From there we went to a house in Every Street, //er er a lovely brick house.// F1189: //Mm. Mm.// M1194: At that time my father was a shift en-, or an engineer at the Dunedin public hospital. F1189: Mm. M1194: And during the War, about nineteen forty-one, we shifted to Timaru, F1189: Mm. M1194: where he went to recommission the old Timaru harbour dredge, F1189: Mm. M1194: which was required to deepen the harbour //for all the shipping in wartime.// F1189: //Mm mm.// M1194: And we lived in Timaru for about six or seven years, and came back to Dunedin, nineteen forty-nine, fifty. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Nineteen fifty. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And they remained here for the rest of their lives, //yeah.// F1189: //Mm.// So, where are your formative memories then, your first memories? M1194: The earliest memories are of a house in Manor Place, the second home, er, I have no recollection of living at St Clair //when we were there.// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: The main memories would be in Andersons Bay F1189: Mm. //Was this the colonial house?// M1194: //where I started school.// //Yes, er, a large school.// F1189: //Mm, mm.// M1194: About a third of the children came from two large orphanages //that were in that same district, yes.// F1189: //Mm, ah, right. Mmhm, mmhm.// Now those children in the orphanages, had they come from overseas? //Mmhm, mmhm.// M1194: //No, no, they would all be New Zealanders, yeah, yeah.// F1189: In your house in Andersons Bay then, erm, can you recall books? M1194: Ah, books, er, you're wanting to get round to the books that I most remember. F1189: Yeah. M1194: Erm. F1189: Ah, now you've made a list! That's always //helpful.// M1194: //One of the// ones I particularly remember, er, was a book on Leonardo //da Vinci,// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: published by Whitcombe and Tombs, now that was a New Zealand publishing //firm that// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: specialised in books for children, F1189: Mm. M1194: some of which were used in //school,// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: er, others you you bought, and that was quite significant. F1189: Mm. M1194: Erm, my father erm had got together a library of, that included a set of Dickens, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: and er "A Child's History of England", by Dickens F1189: Mm. M1194: was quite important. Erm, he also subscribed to er a thing that came out every week, er, "Shipping Wonders of the World". F1189: Mm. M1194: And er, that was significant F1189: Mm. M1194: in our understanding of er the background of both parents. F1189: Mm. //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //er being sea-farers as they were on both sides.// And he also had erm a keen interest in art, and had a thick book of the world's greatest paintings, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: which er we were thoroughly erm acquainted with. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Er, the book was so designed that you came to the title of the picture and then you turned that page over and there was the picture and we had to learn who the artist was //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: what the picture was before the page was turned over, so we were well acquainted with erm er the best of art in that way. F1189: Would that be European art? //European art?// M1194: //My?// F1189: The pictures, //would they be// M1194: //Yes, yes.// //That's right. Old Masters, that's right, yeah, that's right, yes.// F1189: //the Old Masters, that kind of thing? Mmhm.// M1194: Erm, about nineteen forty-one we shifted to Timaru F1189: Mm. M1194: and lived just a block away from the public //library.// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: And that was a very good thing, erm, there I found Arthur Ransome, //and read all his books.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: And there, also, erm, in that library I first became acquainted with New Zealand //writings.// F1189: //Mm mm.// M1194: Erm, and the chief one was a book that I, er, a thick book which I read about five times, a biography of Julius Von Haast, by his son, F1189: Mm. M1194: Heinrich Ferdinand //Von Haast.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: And that er has been very influential on my er reading. F1189: Mm. M1194: Er von Haast was a- an Austrian geologist who came to New Zealand, and did a lot of exploration work in, mainly in the South Island. F1189: Mm. M1194: And lived in Christchurch and took an active part in community life, and it really opened my eyes to er many things. F1189: Mm. M1194: And er it's still a book that I go back to. F1189: Do you own it now? //Mm.// M1194: //Oh, I own it now, yes. I've owned it for a long time.// F1189: So what did it open your eyes to? M1194: An awareness of the New Zealand environment, F1189: Mm. M1194: the geology, F1189: Mm. M1194: erm, literature, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: er, er, yeah, that mainly. //Er, and// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: cultured living. F1189: Mm. M1194: Mm. F1189: So so this book, because I'm not familiar with it, is it, it's like a a sort of almanac of New Zealand then, //er?// M1194: //It's quite// strictly a biography of this man F1189: Oh right. M1194: and his interests, //yeah, yeah.// F1189: //Ah right, I understand now, mmhm, mmhm.// Now erm, did your parents bring any books with them //when they came here?// M1194: //No.// Except engineering er textbooks, //so almost,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// M1194: er, one of which is quite important, which I still read. F1189: Mmhm. //Oh right, uh-huh?// M1194: //Yes, yeah.// F1189: I just wondered if they had because it's sometimes er particular books that people bring when they migrate, for example, M1194: Er, my mother brought her father's book, er, Bef- called "Before the Mast in Sailing Ships". F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: John Mason. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: He had written I think three other //books// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: that I haven't ever been able to track down, //you know,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: University might help me in that, //matter. [laugh]// F1189: //Oh they might! [laugh]// M1194: They were things like erm, er "A Young Mate's Companion to Seamanship", //or something like that.// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// //What it, you, yeah.// M1194: //Er, I would like to know just what it was like, but nobody has ever discovered it.// F1189: It'll be out there somewhere, I'm sure. //[laugh] Now,// M1194: //I'm sure Glasgow should be able to come to light with it.// F1189: were your parents readers then? //Mm// M1194: //Yes,// //yes.// F1189: //mm.// M1194: But erm, library books F1189: Mm. M1194: were the mainstay, mainly for financial //reasons.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: Er a weekly trip to the library on a Friday night was a pattern of life F1189: Uh-huh. M1194: for years. F1189: Mmhm. Now was that the library in Timaru or can you remember using the one here in //Dunedin?// M1194: //Ah, mm.// The one here in Dunedin we didn't use so much, F1189: Mm. M1194: because it meant quite a long trip to get to //it, and erm,// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: But in Timaru and in Dunedin again when we came back //to Dunedin,// F1189: //Mm.// //Mm mmhm.// M1194: //er that would be the pattern, yes.// F1189: Now, you would have been what age when you moved to Timaru then? M1194: Erm, form one at school, that would be probably ten. //Yes.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// So the right age for Ar- Arthur Ransome then? M1194: Ah yes, yes, yes, that quite appealed. Mm. F1189: Can you remember any other story books from before that time, that you maybe were given as gifts, or Sunday school prizes //dare I say? [laugh]// M1194: //Oh, yes there was one that,// "Coppernob Buckland", I think it was called, but I never read it. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// Was that a Sunday school prize? //[laugh]// M1194: //It was, it was, it was, er// a sea story of some //sort but// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// //Mm.// M1194: //novels of the sea have never appealed over much.// F1189: Right, uh-huh. M1194: And novels don't feature much in my reading taste. F1189: Mm. M1194: I've read a few but not many. F1189: Mm. Ah well then it will be interesting to see what what you have read of that then. So you didn't really own any books, or a lot of books as a small child then? M1194: We had this basic library which I suppose would account for about two, four, six metres //of shelf space, yes.// F1189: //Mm mm mmhm.// //That's quite a bit, mm.// M1194: //It's quite a bit.// F1189: Now, you mentioned the book about Leonardo, M1194: Yes. F1189: erm and that you were, that was significant for you. //Why was that?// M1194: //Yes.// It opened my eyes to the work of an artist F1189: Mm. M1194: and the work of an architect, F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: and the difficulties they faced. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Yes. F1189: And that was intriguing for you then? //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// M1194: //Yes, it was interesting, yes.// F1189: Now the other book you mentioned, erm, with the the colour plates of Old Masters, M1194: Yes. F1189: were you encouraged to read that? Or to look at it? M1194: Erm, we went to the public art gallery //about// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: once every two months, //which was a long trek on a Sunday afternoon,// F1189: //Mmhm mm.// M1194: by tram and on foot //for several miles.// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: And in between times our interest in that was fostered by er father sitting in the chair and us sitting on //the arm of the chair and having to guess what was coming, you know?// F1189: //Mm mm.// So was that a fun thing for you to do? M1194: That was an interesting thing, //yes.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: Yes. F1189: Looking back on it now, do you think it was a good thing for you? M1194: Oh yes. F1189: Mm. M1194: And in part it reflected my father's interest //in art and antiques,// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: and his concern that we should appreciate those sort of things, //yes.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// Did he ever encourage you to read anything at all about where he'd come from? //And your mother had come from?// M1194: //No.// We had a book called "Orkney, the Magnetic North", F1189: Mm. M1194: by I think a man named Gunn. F1189: Mm. M1194: Er, and that book was on our shelves, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: and we became familiar with it //over the years but// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: he never spoke about his erm family //background,// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: and to this day, I don't know much about it. F1189: Really? Mm. M1194: His father died of TB when he was quite young, F1189: Mm. M1194: and his mother, I've just recently discovered was left, erm, had to make her way in life as a charwoman, and she married a man Shepherd, F1189: Mm. M1194: and went to live in Canada, and went out of my father's //life.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: And erm er he was brought up by his mother's mother, F1189: Mm. M1194: in Kirkwall, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: in pretty impoverished circumstances. He had to go to school with no shoes and all that //sort of thing,// F1189: //Mm.// //He did rather well for himself then, really.// M1194: //in winter.// Well I think he did. F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: I think he did very well. F1189: And he made his home here then, would you say? M1194: Yes. F1189: And your mother too? //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Yes, here in Dunedin.// F1189: Now, did newspapers come into your house, as a child? M1194: Erm, the Orcadian, F1189: Ah. M1194: er from time to //time,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// M1194: and my birth was recorded in the Orcadian but not in the Otago Daily //Times,// F1189: //[laugh]// //Now that's interesting, yeah, uh-huh.// M1194: //which is probably significant.// Er, we've always had the daily //paper.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: Erm, I can remember my mother reading it on the floor of our living room er at the time the Japanese were invading China, F1189: Mm. M1194: and they were shooting patients in the Shanghai //hospital.// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: And I, er that sort of stuck in my mind quite vividly. I've since tracked down er the events of that time, and find my memory is not at fault. That's that's what was happening. F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: That would be in the late thirties. F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: But we've always taken the newspaper and read it, //avidly.// F1189: //It was, it was the local newspaper?// M1194: Yes, Dunedin, yes. F1189: Where would your parents have got the Orcadian from then? M1194: It came out by mail, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: and I still get it, F1189: [inaudible] M1194: in monthly //bundles from a lady in Methven in mid Canterbury.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// Uh-huh. So someone was sending that then to your parents? //Or was it ordered?// M1194: //Yeah, on occasion. It wasn't regular.// F1189: Right. M1194: Just ones that they thought might interest her, mm. F1189: Now were you ever intrigued and erm sought to read about y- your parents' heritage in any way? M1194: Ah, well, we had my grandf-, mother's father's obituary, F1189: Mm. M1194: er which was interesting, as a sea //captain and er that was in the Orcadian// F1189: //Mm mm.// //Mm.// M1194: //again,// and also the obituaries of some of the other relations, //my mother's uncles and what not,// F1189: //Mm mm mm.// M1194: who had all been sea-farers //for the most part and// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: erm involved in the First World War. My fa-, grandfather was naval vice consul in Havana, //in Cuba,// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: during the the Great War. F1189: Mm. M1194: That's where he ended up. Erm, so we did pick up something of the heritage //there but// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: that generation in New Zealand, my father and mother, didn't tend to talk a great deal F1189: Mm. M1194: about heritage as heritage. F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: Yes. F1189: So they they didn't join any of the Scottish societies that were around Otago at that time? M1194: No. There was actually an Orkney and Shetland society, but //they never belonged to it.// F1189: //Mm. Mm.// M1194: Erm, for one thing a sea-farer tends not to put down roots //in a community,// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: and erm this meant that er they didn't join much. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Er, school, or anything //like that, school committees, that type of thing.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: Erm, so, and my father only joined one thing and that was the Friends of the Otago Museum. F1189: Right. M1194: He- he was interested in //that type of thing.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// //Yes, it seems, it seems so.// M1194: //Yes.// F1189: Now, what kind of education did you have here then, Reverend, in //Dunedin?// M1194: //In Timaru,// I was at a very good primary school //for two years.// F1189: //Mmhm mm.// M1194: And there er we learned a good appreciation of //poetry and what not,// F1189: //Mmhm mm mmhm.// M1194: at that level. And then I was four years at Timaru Boys' High School, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: and that was a very good school, //and again,// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: er we were introduced to many things but I do remember erm as well as New Zealand poetry coming to the fore at that stage, er we had to do a project on a New Zealand author. F1189: Mm. M1194: And for some reason or other I lighted on the name of a man called Herries Beattie, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: who specialised in local history, //erm,// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: particularly Maori history and the early exploration of er Otago and Southland, F1189: Mm. M1194: and er runholding and all that //sort of thing.// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: And those things have been a dominant interest //and remain so till this day.// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: Erm, just yesterday we were away in Central Otago tracking down one of the old coach //roads that seems to have been forgotten.// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: And all this sort of thing I can trace back to erm [taps microphone] this man Herries //Beattie and his// F1189: //Mm.// //Mm.// M1194: //numerous publications, yeah.// F1189: Now what was the balance then, in your education, particularly in your secondary education, between that kind of literature M1194: Yes. F1189: written about New Zealand by New Zealanders, M1194: Yeah. F1189: and English literature from the canon. M1194: Ah well, er we had to struggle with Shakespeare and I don't think when you're young and haven't much experience in life that adult poetry necessarily F1189: Mm. M1194: rings very true, you can memorise it, F1189: Mm. M1194: but the worth of the memorising only becomes er important F1189: Mm. M1194: as you've experienced //more life.// F1189: //Mm mm.// M1194: So erm, that would be my answer to that //question. [laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// I think that's a, you weren't that impressed by it [laugh] //at the time. [laugh]// M1194: //No.// //And when I got to university, I was even less impressed by the way academic English people, English literature people analysed things and read what I'm sure was never intended to be read out of things.// F1189: //Mm mmhm mm mm.// Now what about Scottish literature, because //that seems// M1194: //Yes.// F1189: to have been part of the education system here too. M1194: Er, well that was secondary school, now secondary school also er introduced me to history. F1189: Mm. M1194: See, I set out in high school with the intention of becoming a civil engineer, F1189: Mm. M1194: and I didn't grasp mathematics F1189: Mm. M1194: in any significant way. So my bent then turned to what they call social //studies, history and geography.// F1189: //Mm mm mm.// M1194: And that's where I found er I was much more at home. F1189: Mm. M1194: So that that was, became the balance of things, F1189: Right. //Mm.// M1194: //with French,// as well, //which I appreciated more than English literature.// F1189: //Mm.// //Really? [laugh]// M1194: //[laugh]// [inaudible] F1189: So didn't have any erm of the Scottish canon in your literature M1194: No. F1189: studies then. I'm thinking of Robert Burns of course, //erm// M1194: //No, no no no no.// F1189: Walter Scott? M1194: No, you must remember that erm to some Scots people, F1189: Mm. M1194: Robert Burns is just a dirty old man. F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: And my- that was my mother's view of him. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1194: And not that she was a purist or a puritan //or whatever you might call it, but// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: that was her impression. //Father never bothered about him at all.// F1189: //Mmhm mm, mmhm.// And you didn't get any of it at school then? M1194: Nothing that's s- has has sunk in //in any way.// F1189: //[laugh] Right.// M1194: Yes. F1189: And what about the likes of the novels of Walter Scott? They were very popular on the school curriculum in the UK. //Uh-huh. Mm.// M1194: //"Tales of a Grandfather",// //yes,// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: but that only. F1189: That's all. //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Yes.// And that I picked up in a F1189: Mmhm. M1194: small booklet, yeah. But that actually triggered //a lifelong interest in Scottish history.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm// Right, so what types of books then did you read about, erm if you go back to your beginnings of of the interest in Scottish history? What sort of things got you interested? //Mm mmhm.// M1194: //Well "Tales of a Grandfather", yes, mm.// F1189: Mmhm. M1194: The Orkney background didn't ever become real until much //later in life. Yes.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm mmhm.// Erm, and the kind of things you'd get to read about Scottish history, would they be given to you at school, or was that //part of your own, just// M1194: //Ah, that didn't come into any// erm school //curriculum until,// F1189: //Right, mmhm mmhm.// M1194: as far as I know. F1189: So what was the history you got at school then? M1194: Oh, [exhale], English history, F1189: Mm. M1194: er the Reform Movement, er [exhale] Blank! F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Like er, it was interesting but it's it's left me F1189: Mm mmhm. //Mm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //as to what the detail was now, yeah.// F1189: Well i- it couldn't have put you off //anyway. [laugh] Uh-huh.// M1194: //No, it didn't put me off.// Erm, secondary school history when I came to Dunedin, for my last year at //school, secondary school,// F1189: //Mm mm.// M1194: at Otago Boys' High School, we had a very good history master, a man who had written books. F1189: Mm. M1194: And there were only six in the history class. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And we had individual tuition from this F1189: Mm. M1194: excellent man, McClymont was his name. English, or Macaulay's "History of England", F1189: Mm. M1194: especially the eighteenth century, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: that became an important //thing.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: And then, there was European history //in the eighteenth century as well.// F1189: //Mmhm. Mmhm.// M1194: That became important F1189: Mmhm. M1194: when I, you want me to get into University? F1189: Yes, wha- what age were you when you left school? M1194: I'd be seventeen //when I left.// F1189: //Mmhm.// And did you go straight //to University?// M1194: //Yes,// F1189: Mmhm. //And which University was that?// M1194: //I did.// //Otago, of course.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// M1194: It was the first University in New Zealand, //yes.// F1189: //Mmhm mm.// Had you no desire to go anywhere else, were you happy to stay? //Mm mm.// M1194: //Well it wasn't even a possibility.// My father had actually taken a lower paid job, //to be able to shift from Timaru back to Dunedin,// F1189: //Mm mm.// M1194: so that the three of us would have the opportunity of a university //education, because he'd had no opportunities.// F1189: //Mm mmhm. Mm.// M1194: [cough] So he made all these sacrifices F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: in order that these opportunities should be open to //us.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// Who would you say then was the biggest influence on your reading taste then as a child and as an adolescent? M1194: My father, probably. F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: Er, he had engaged in a correspondence course with Wolsey Hall and Oxford. //[laugh]// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: And his notes, //in connection with that// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: erm I had for many years. That would be an indication that he valued education, F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: and was determined that we shouldn't waste our opportunities. F1189: Mmhm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //Yes.// So that would be the way I'd answer that question. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. Now that kind of erm respect for education and er a keenness to have an education and to carry on //learning// M1194: //Yes.// F1189: was often thought of as very stereotypically a Scottish attribute. M1194: Oh of course you're not wrong. F1189: Mm. M1194: This province was founded by the Lay Association //of the Free Church of Scotland and// F1189: //Mm mm.// M1194: their prime emphasis was on good //education,// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: proper, proper provision F1189: Mm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //for the church,// and erm the development of an ordered community //life,// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Mmhm mm mmhm.// M1194: //with good industry and commerce and farming and what not.// And the proof of that I think you'll find in the fact that within twenty years of stepping ashore on the mud at the bottom of this hill here they had established sixty-eight F1189: Mm. M1194: primary schools right into the back corner of the province, F1189: Mm. M1194: erm they'd established a boys' high school, F1189: Mm. M1194: modelled on the Edinburgh High School, F1189: Mm. M1194: even the building looked about the same as the old one. //And [inaudible]// F1189: //What that the Otago// Boys' High? //Mm mmhm.// M1194: //no-, that was the Otago Boys' High.// And then a girls' //high school,// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: one of the first in the British Commonwealth. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And within twenty years they had appointed the first four professors for the University, F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1194: and got the University up and running. F1189: Did you feel yourself in any way a part of that that heritage? M1194: Er, well it's in line with F1189: Mm. M1194: my father's standards. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: My mother never had the opportunity to have much in the way of education, because she was brought up in Australia //where her father// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: erm wanted to be a farmer, F1189: Mm. M1194: and combined it with sea-faring. F1189: Mm. M1194: So her education was in a small school in Gippsland. F1189: Mm. M1194: She was the Dux, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: but she was the only one in the class. F1189: [laugh] M1194: Nevertheless when she got back to Scotland at the beginning of the First World War, she found a job in the Clydesdale //Bank in Glasgow, one of the first// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: women to work in the bank, F1189: Mm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //so she was no fool.// F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And it was she who had a a good knowledge of poetry F1189: Mm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //and literature,// and could bring out quotations to suit F1189: Mmhm. M1194: on occasion, yeah. F1189: Do you recall any of the poetry and literature that she was interested in, //that maybe made an impression on you?// M1194: //Oh.// [laugh] I can't recall the context of them, //it was just odd phrases, you know?// F1189: //Mm, mm. Mm.// M1194: "Dead, dead and never called me mother." F1189: [laugh] M1194: Er, "it's a better thing that I do now than I have ever done before", Sydney Carton //in// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Er, "Tale of Two Cities", mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Ta-, Tale, "The Tale of Two Cities", that's right, yeah.// //That sort of thing rolled off her tongue.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: Er. F1189: Did you ever read any of the Dickens, by the way, that were on your family's bookshelves? M1194: No, the print was small. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// M1194: And it didn't appeal, and Charles Dickens never appeals to, has never appealed to me greatly. //I've read some of them, but// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: er, yeah. F1189: Mmhm. //And before we move on to your university// M1194: //[throat]// F1189: career, can I just ask you about er "Swallows and Amazons", and if there's anything else you can remember about the kind of recreational reading that you did? //Out of the library.// M1194: //[tut]// I can't recall. F1189: Mm. M1194: No. F1189: That one though, obviously, must have //[inaudible]// M1194: //Oh that triggered it, because erm// at that stage we were living right by the waterfront //in Timaru and yachts and things were all, all around the place and// F1189: //Mm mmhm mm mmhm.// M1194: er I still have a yacht //in a// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: place just over the hill at Doctors Point, yes. F1189: So was that what appealed then, the the adventure M1194: Ah, well //my father used to be the starter for the Kirkwall yacht club, so// F1189: //The sea-faring, uh-huh uh-huh.// Mmhm. M1194: Yes. F1189: The thing about erm the Ransome stories is they are very very English. M1194: Yes. F1189: Erm, would that //[laugh]// M1194: //I'm not prejudiced against the English. [laugh]// //But I'm more at home with Scots.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh. [laugh]// //Are you? [laugh] Mmhm.// M1194: //[inaudible]. Yes, yes, yes.// F1189: But it didn't stop you, you didn't feel in any way alienated from them, because they are //a particular type of English?// M1194: //Erm,// our next door neighbours in Andersons Bay were Quakers from Yorkshire. F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: And we slowly came to grips with //er// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: a Yorkshire attitude to life. //I won't say any more than that.// F1189: //[laugh]// M1194: We also had people from Ulster near at //hand, and// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: er and became well and truly acquainted with their attitudes to life too. //Yes.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// Yo-, Dunedin anyway is very very cosmopolitan. //Yeah, uh-huh.// M1194: //It is now.// It was more homogeneous fifty years ago F1189: Mm. M1194: and more. F1189: Homogeneous in what way? M1194: In the sense that er there weren't many Maoris, F1189: Mm. M1194: not many Chinese, F1189: Mm. M1194: there were some Jewish people. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Er, but after the last war, there's been an influx of people from the Pacific Islands, F1189: Mm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //the Maoris have come south in large numbers,// the Chinese component in the population is more dominant, the Lebanese one is more dominant. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Erm, it's a quite different society //now.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: If you go down our main street you might see as many non-Europeans F1189: Mmhm. M1194: as you would Europeans. F1189: Indeed, uh-huh. M1194: Yeah. F1189: So you mean hom- homogeneous er British //across the board, mmhm.// M1194: //Yes, yes, yeah.// F1189: Now, did you get much history about erm the Maoris //then at school?// M1194: //Ah yes, that was// well and truly covered at school. F1189: Was it? //Mmhm.// M1194: //Yes.// Well and truly. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And if people researched properly they would discover that that was the case from an early //stage, yes.// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// Did that make any impression on on you at the time? M1194: Oh we grew up familiar with stories about Te Rauparaha and Hongi Heke and that sort of thing, yes. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Again, Whitcombe and Tombs published a series of books called "Our Nation's Story". And that included British history, Maori //history,// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: mm and contemporary New Zealand history. //It was quite good.// F1189: //Really? Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: It's spurned by the purists these days, //but it was actually// F1189: //Mmhm. Mmhm.// M1194: a well-rounded historical background, I thought. F1189: Mm and was that a a school textbook //or was that, it was, right, mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Yes, yes. Mmhm.// F1189: Okay, well you went to University here, you went to study engineering, //and it didn't work out, is that correct?// M1194: //I, no, I// gave up engineering at high school. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Er and I began University er with the intention of becoming a secondary school teacher, //so I did// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: English, history, F1189: Mm. M1194: geography, economics, philosophy, F1189: Mm. M1194: that group of subjects, F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1194: and then later on, erm I decided er I could go into the ministry and then I had to wrestle with Greek and Hebrew, F1189: [laugh] //Mmhm. Mmhm.// M1194: //er and that wrestle I I never really won.// F1189: [laugh] M1194: No. F1189: So so that was two degrees then you did, did you do //one after the other?// M1194: //I did// er an Arts degree, F1189: Mm. M1194: specialising in History and Geography, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: and then part of a BD, F1189: Mm. M1194: and a diploma in Theology. F1189: Mmhm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //Yes.// F1189: Now that's a lot of reading. You must have //done over quite a long time in education.// M1194: //Yes.// I was eight years //round the University, and enjoyed every minute of it.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// Mmhm mmhm. M1194: Yes. F1189: You never thought of an academic career then? M1194: I I wasn't that clever. F1189: [laugh] M1194: I enjoyed life too much. F1189: Uh-huh. //Now,// M1194: //Yes.// F1189: were your parents a member of of this church? //The First Church?// M1194: //No, they// My mother used to go to church. //My father was never a member of any church.// F1189: //Mmhm mm mmhm.// Really? M1194: Yeah. But his Scottish education had given him a knowledge of the shorter catechism, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: and he could tell you what man's chief end was and, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: yes, but that was learned in day school. F1189: Mm, did you have a copy of that catechism? M1194: Oh we were given it at Sunday school. F1189: Mmhm uh-huh uh-huh. Have you no happy memories of Sunday school prizes, Reverend? M1194: I didn't er specialise in Sunday school, //or Bible class, no.// F1189: //[laugh]// So what decided you then on a a career in the ministry? M1194: Well, when I started University, the student Christian movement was a very lively F1189: Mm. //Mm.// M1194: //group of people,// and er before the University year began, or as it began er some of the older members of the SCN F1189: Mm. M1194: er used to visit F1189: Mm. M1194: freshers and invite them to go on a a hike //up// F1189: //Mm.// //Mm mm.// M1194: //Signal Hill and round about and back again,// er, I found that not uncongenial, F1189: Mm. M1194: and gradually became involved and closely involved //with the Student Christian Movement, and// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: it was through that F1189: Mm. M1194: that I became a member of the church, //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: eventually a theological student, //or divinity student I would prefer to be called really yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm. Yeah, uh-huh uh-huh.// //Erm, er that's very Scottish.// M1194: //Mm.// //That's right, that's right, yeah.// F1189: //[laugh]// Erm, was there anything at all that you read at that time that particularly impressed you and and and made you turn towards that kind of //ambition?// M1194: //Not, no particular book.// F1189: Mm. M1194: But er there was a small study book, er just a F1189: Mm. M1194: slender thing F1189: Mm. M1194: by erm a Dunedin man, J.M. Bates, called "Foundation Truths", and that was just a series of //studies.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: And that er appealed to me and made me think. F1189: Mmhm mm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //together with the people that I was mixing with,// F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1194: rather than a book. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Yes. F1189: Mm. M1194: Er . Yeah, that that would be true to say, it was some study books and the community //in which I// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: found myself, more than something literary. //Mm.// F1189: //Mm.// Was that community ecumenical then? //or, it was? Mm mmhm.// M1194: //Yes, very much so.// Presbyterians, High Anglicans, //Quakers.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: The Catholics had their own group in those days. F1189: Mm. M1194: And there was also er a more conservative Christian group, called the Evangelical Union, F1189: Mm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //Er.// so I had the benefit of a fairly liberal ecumenical F1189: Mmhm. M1194: group of people. F1189: You must have made a decision somehow about, er //Presbyterianism then?// M1194: //Erm,// oh yes, I could have become an Anglican without any //trouble.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: But I decided that Presbyterianism w-w- would be the one that I would opt for //eventually, yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// Now, is there any particular reason for that, that would have to do with your background or //theological// M1194: //Ah, it's// F1189: choice that you //made purely? Mm.// M1194: //Yes, I I thought so.// //Yes, I've nothing against the Anglicans but I thought the other was more soundly based.// F1189: //Mm uh-huh.// Right, uh-huh. M1194: Yes. F1189: Uh-huh. I just wondered if it was somehow more familiar to you, because this is a //Scottish church. Mmhm mm mm.// M1194: //Oh well I'd had, I had some background in it.// Instead of going to Bible class, I struck a bargain with my mother that I would go to church instead, because you didn't have to answer questions like //that, you see?// F1189: //Ah right, uh-huh.// //Uh-huh.// M1194: //And I// actually cottoned on to a lot of things through good preaching of //the day.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// //I see, so so that would be quite, you would be quite young then, when you// M1194: //Yes.// //Well, say sixteen.// F1189: //started coming to church?// //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Yeah.// F1189: That's an impressionable age. //Mm mmhm.// M1194: //Yes, yeah.// F1189: And it was this church you came to? M1194: No no, no no, we were living up in Morning-, in, well we went to Roslyn //Church at that da-, that time, yeah.// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //I had been going to church in Timaru as well, but erm// //Yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Now was your father quite happy about that career choice? M1194: Oh he always wanted me to be er a doctor. F1189: Mm. M1194: But there was a murder in the hospital, //one of the house surgeons murdered another,// F1189: //Mmhm.// //[laugh]// M1194: //and that put him off.// //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// M1194: Never heard anything more about medicine after that. //[laugh]// F1189: //Well I suppose it's only the vicar, isn't it, in Agatha Christie novels, who// //[laugh] [inaudible] the murder.// M1194: //That's right, that's right, that's right, yeah.// F1189: Now did you have time, you must have done an awful lot of reading, of serious reading, over your your eight years of study. Is there anything that stands out from that, particularly //for you?// M1194: //Erm,// //Of the University part?// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: There would be some, er, without going into course //details and that sort of thing.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: Er, the writings of Bonhoeffer, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: and Kierkegaard, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: and Carl Jung F1189: Mm. M1194: would stand out. F1189: Mmhm. Now they're quite radical thinkers. //Yeah, uh-huh.// M1194: //Well that's right.// But er I've also developed F1189: Mmhm. M1194: a taste in biography and that //sort of thing.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: Erm, Alexander Whyte, F1189: Mm. M1194: of Free St Georges. Alexander Carlyle of Inveresk. F1189: Mm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //Jupiter Carlyle.// Er, J.S. Blackie, F1189: Mm. M1194: Hugh Miller. //The or-, the mason,// F1189: //That rings a bell, uh-huh.// //Mm mmhm.// M1194: //the stone mason who became a geologist, and// intimately tied up with the Disruption. F1189: Yes, that's, must be why it rings a bell, mmhm. //[laugh]// M1194: //[laugh]// Er, those //people I've// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: read and //reread,// F1189: //Mmhm mm.// Mmhm. M1194: and enjoyed. Erm, but F1189: Now the whole history of the Disruption, I have always found quite difficult to read, myself. //It's complicated.// M1194: //Yes.// F1189: Erm, M1194: Yes, it is not //straightforward.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// Is there anything that made it clearer for you, that you ever read, erm? M1194: Well, I really only tackled the Disruption seriously when I came here, //and// F1189: //Right, uh-huh.// M1194: er when I retired I I came here //for a Sunday or two and the minister asked me// F1189: //Mm mm mmhm.// M1194: would I like to help out preaching on occasions, //and erm// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: maybe visiting sick and elderly //people,// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Mm mmhm.// M1194: //no more than four hours a week.// F1189: Mmhm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //I thought, oh that's alright, I can manage that.// But then not long afterwards he said, "We're doing up this place as a //heritage centre, will you look after that?"// F1189: //Mmhm mm mmhm.// M1194: And that really meant I had to come to grips with the Disruption, and //everything going before and after that.// F1189: //[inaudible] uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: So it was that that made me really consider, I knew about it before then. F1189: Mm. //Mm mmhm.// M1194: //You can't study Church History and not,// //but it wasn't to the fore of my// F1189: //Mm.// //Mm mmhm.// M1194: //understanding of things,// not at all. F1189: Now that's interesting, really, but erm, //so it came afterwards for you.// M1194: //Er, on the other hand, er Martin Luther,// F1189: Uh-huh. M1194: and his, the book on him, "Here I Stand", I can't remember the title of the author now, it's, but it was a thick book, and F1189: Mm. M1194: that appealed to me, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: as well as a smaller book on Luther, that was important. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And one or two other books on Scottish history, prior to the Disruption. F1189: Right, mmhm. Can you recall what they were? M1194: Offhand I can't. //Erm,// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: I've often wondered what they were! //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// It's, it's not easy, because I take it you don't own any of these books, you must have borrowed //them from the University library.// M1194: //Ah, yes, well you see,// living in Knox College F1189: Mm. M1194: for four years, F1189: Mm. M1194: er there was a very good library there, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: open to us day and night. F1189: Now where is Knox College? M1194: Er up in Opoho, //here in Dunedin, it's a// F1189: //Uh-huh mm mmhm.// M1194: college that was set up a hundred //years ago this year,// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: to house students of all faculties F1189: Mm. M1194: so that Divinity students would rub //shoulders with everybody else in there.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: That was the pattern of life. //We had// F1189: //Right, mmhm.// M1194: the privilege of being able to live //there.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// //And did you live// M1194: //Never.// F1189: there or did you stay at home? M1194: I lived in for four years. F1189: You did. Mmhm. M1194: Yes. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And there was a very good library there, //the best of everything was there, so it was all on hand.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// Right. M1194: Yes. F1189: Did you carry on using the public library at all? M1194: Not at that time, //except to borrow records.// F1189: //Mm.// //Ah right, so what kind of records?// M1194: //[laugh] [cough]// Albert Schweitzer, playing the organ, F1189: Uh-huh uh-huh. M1194: mainly. F1189: Uh-huh. M1194: We didn't have, we only had basic F1189: Mm. //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //amplifier things in in our study in those days,// housed in an apple box or something like that. F1189: [exhale] M1194: Yes, we were quite poverty //stricken.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: Yes. F1189: Really? Mm. Now, you're not a man for fiction? M1194: No, I've read a few novels, just. F1189: Uh-huh. And what would they be? M1194: Oh, //"Nineteen Eighty-Four" and// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: Franz Kafka, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Our professor of Church History, who was a refugee from Germany, in nineteen //thirty-eight and// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: he gave a course each year erm in literature, he would //take one// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: piece of literature like a novel of Franz //Kafka's// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: or Dostoyevsky, and lecture on it //through the winter,// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: and the students from the medical school would sneak in to be part of these lectures. F1189: Ah. //They were popular then?// M1194: //Miss their own.// //Yes, they were very very good.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: And er that opened F1189: Mmhm. M1194: our minds to the whole realm of //existentialism,// F1189: //Mm mm mmhm.// M1194: which was very useful. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: It really was. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: So we had to read novels. //Yes.// F1189: //Right, uh-huh.// //Er and so you read those ones, which you've described, uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: //Dostoyevsky, Kafka,// //Chekhov, oh,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: things that were of some //substance, yes.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// So, were you ever inclined to read the likes of Sartre then, if you were interested in //existentialism?// M1194: //I've looked at it, but I've never// //er never felt inclined.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: On the other hand, Sartre's thinking, F1189: Mm. M1194: er I've dabbled a bit in that //type of thing, yes.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// When you say "dabbled", would that be reading things about Sartre? //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Yes, probably, yes.// //Yes.// F1189: //Erm,// so you go into the library and pick up your records and just bypass all these novels? //[laugh]// M1194: //I have to confess that.// Yes. F1189: Uh-huh. You're never tempted, for something a bit lighter? M1194: Ah, there was enough to read F1189: Mm. M1194: of ordinary study, //you know?// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Set books and all that sort of thing, yes.// F1189: Did you carry on reading the newspaper then, once you'd moved out of //home?// M1194: //Into the college?// //Yes,// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: first thing in the morning, //before anybody messed it up.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Ah right, so it was supplied for you? M1194: Yes, that's right. F1189: And which newspaper would that be? M1194: The Otago Daily Times, //yes, yes.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// Have you never wavered from that, across your life? M1194: Oh there's not much choice. //I mean it's not Britain, don't forget.// F1189: //[laugh]// //Uh-huh.// M1194: //Yes.// F1189: Do you think, would you like more choice? M1194: Not if it's like some of the other ones that are floating around, F1189: Mm. M1194: all out of one publishing house. F1189: Mmhm mm. M1194: The Otago Daily Times is an independently owned //thing and// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// Mmhm. M1194: Yes. //Quite quite quite superior. [laugh]// F1189: //Yeah, it's not a bad newspaper really, uh-huh, yes.// But it is quite local. //Would you say that's, yes, mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //That's deliberate, it's deliberate,// //because// F1189: //So what about [inaudible]?// M1194: the- they publish once a week, F1189: Mm. M1194: er a a supplement //on// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: er affairs outside of New Zealand, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: which puts all the other newspapers in New Zealand in the shade. F1189: Mm. M1194: Yeah. F1189: Yes, I'v seen that. It is //quite good, yeah, uh-huh.// M1194: //Yeah.// F1189: Where would you get then world news on a daily or a weekly basis, other than that? M1194: Now? F1189: Mm. M1194: Well, the local community station //broadcasts// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: BBC F1189: Mmhm. M1194: World Service from eleven at night until six in the morning. F1189: Mmhm. //Right. [laugh]// M1194: //[laugh]// So that by the time six in the morning comes F1189: Mm. M1194: I've heard already what the news is //going to be.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// So it's by other media then that //that you, that you,// M1194: //Yes, yes.// //And we watch BBC Television.// F1189: //get it. Mm mmhm mmhm uh-huh uh-huh.// Do you ever use erm, your computer, which I see there, //to access news or, no?// M1194: //Oh, I've n-, I've no great love of computers.// //No no, no.// F1189: //[exhale]// You never took to them? M1194: No no, mind you I've never had any instruction on using them. I've just worn them out. //[laugh]// F1189: //Right.// Erm cause s-, I've spoken to other people here who will consult erm other newspapers, you know, //world newspapers,// M1194: //Oh yes, yes yes.// F1189: online. M1194: Yes. F1189: Not necessarily just //British ones. Mm.// M1194: //We get the Spectator,// every week, F1189: Mm. M1194: from the book bus. F1189: Right. //Uh-huh.// M1194: //And the Country Life// F1189: Uh-huh. M1194: magazine, and the Scots whatever is it, erm, Scottish Field. F1189: Right? Do you read them? M1194: And I buy the Scots Magazine. F1189: Do you? M1194: Yes. F1189: Now why is that, what, what's appealing about the Scots Magazine? M1194: Er, it's got a variety of things. F1189: Mm. M1194: And I don't always er read all of it, F1189: Mm. M1194: but it's a useful library to have, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: they're not too big, and they're //easily accommodated.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// Uh-huh. M1194: If you were to see my study, all the walls right up to the //ceiling are lined with books, even across the windows.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// //[laugh]// M1194: //[exhale]// //And, and that's only a a a little part of the garage that's been cut off, you see?// F1189: //Well I've missed that, unfortunately, mmhm mm mmhm.// M1194: And then there's another bookcase in the living room, which is full of New Zealand history. F1189: Mm. M1194: And there's another bookcase just inside the front door which has all the big books, F1189: Right, uh-huh. M1194: like the Provincial Gazette. //from the er// F1189: //Mm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //eighteen sixties and that sort of thing.// //Er.// F1189: //Now, The Spectator// has a particular political bent. //Uh-huh, mmhm.// M1194: //Oh yes, and we get the// Literary Review. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1194: My daughter from, //in Wellington sends that down.// F1189: //Mmhm mhmm.// M1194: along with The Economist. F1189: Mmhm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //Yes.// //So they're all coming into the house at the present time.// F1189: //[inaudible] Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: And, er, my wife, especially if she finds a //good review in The Spectator,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: we request the book //from the book bus, and get it very quickly, as a rule.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Now, you mentioned the book bus there. Tell me about //the book bus.// M1194: //Well the public library// //erm has I think a couple of book buses,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //which go to each suburb once a week.// And you just go there and //you can borrow from what they've got on the shelves or you can request.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Now do you have to pay for borrowing the likes of The Spectator? M1194: Only, only, no, ah, The Spectator, maybe fifty cents, //or something like that.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm. //And then you give them back? [laugh]// M1194: //Ah she she does, she does the selecting, I don't do it, she does it.// //So she pays these things.// F1189: //[laugh]// And then you give them back then? //Mm. You're finished with them. Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Yes, you've got them for three weeks, except The Spectator, might be for a week you're allowed it.// F1189: But the Scots Magazine then you buy? //Mm, right, uh-huh.// M1194: //I buy from the shop, yes.// F1189: So that's a local shop? //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Yes, yeah.// F1189: It's the one thing I haven't seen since I've been here. I've seen the People's Friend. //[laugh]// M1194: //[laugh] Yes, yeah.// //That came into our house as// F1189: //And the British Women's Weekly.// M1194: children, //but I didn't read it.// F1189: //Did it? Uh-huh.// No? Never, Annie S Swan never appealed? //[laugh]// M1194: //[exhale]// F1189: I take it it was your mother then, that //read it?// M1194: //That's right.// F1189: Mmhm. //Mm.// M1194: //Erm,// but I must say I, over the years I've cut out some of the pictures from the front cover. F1189: Right, oh, why is that? M1194: Oh, they appeal, places //I've been to, Lake of Menteith, and all these sort of things, yeah.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh. Yeah, uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// Now when did you first go to Scotland? M1194: I only went once, F1189: Mm. M1194: in nineteen eighty-five, //on study leave,// F1189: //Mm mm.// //Mm uh-huh.// M1194: //for sixty-nine days.// F1189: And how did you feel about that? M1194: I enjoyed every minute, //except about ten.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// [laugh] M1194: And that was on a train going from Edinburgh to Glasgow //on a Saturday morning// F1189: //[laugh]// //I knew you were going to say that! [laugh]// M1194: //And I hadn't realised it was a football// special. F1189: Oh right! //Uh-huh.// M1194: //And,// //I got in the carriage and I thought "Heavens, it's// F1189: //[sniff]// M1194: there's not even lights in it, and the luggage racks had had been gone and there were just seats, and then the thing filled up with all sorts of hooligans. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And er worst going into that tunnel under, before you come up //into Queen Street station, the// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: the thing stopped F1189: [laugh] M1194: in total darkness! [laugh] And I thought "Heavens, how am I going to get out of this place?" F1189: [laugh] M1194: But er, yeah. F1189: Now I hope that wasn't near the start of your trip? M1194: It was during it, somewhere, I can't //remember when. Oh no no no no.// F1189: //It might have made a bad impression. [laugh]// //Uh-huh mm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //I, once I realised what I was up against, I was fine, yeah, but I// F1189: Do you think they were more ferocious somehow, the the Scottish football fan, than than say the New Zealand rugby fan? M1194: I've never been to a rugby match in New Zealand. F1189: Mmhm uh-huh. M1194: I, I'm not a sporting person. F1189: Right. That would have been my next question, to ask you, //if you read anything about sports.// M1194: //Er no no, I once watched// a match from what they call the Scotsman's Grandstand, up on the hill at Carisbrook. F1189: The Scotsman's Grandstand? M1194: Yes. //Wh-// F1189: //Oh, now wh- why is it called that?// M1194: Just a bank where you didn't have to pay. [laugh] //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// //Uh-huh// M1194: //The railway line was sort of right beside you.// F1189: uh-huh. //Mmhm mm// M1194: //But that's been closed off by the building of a new stand, so.// //It hasn't, sport as such has never appealed to me in any significant way.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Now before you went to Scotland then, on this study leave, M1194: Yes. F1189: which I take would have been based in Edinburgh, was it? M1194: It was based in Glasgow, F1189: Was it? M1194: because I'd never met any relations, F1189: Mm mm. M1194: and my two cousins lived in Newton Mearns, F1189: Mmhm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //yeah.// So I started from there. F1189: Right, uh-huh. M1194: And then went to, oh quite early in the piece I went to the General Assembly of the //Church of Scotland in Edinburgh.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: And I had a week at St Andrews, //at the summer school of theology.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: And then seven days up in Orkney. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And I met relations and people and that sort of thing. It was very good. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Yeah. F1189: Did you read up anything about erm what you were going to see before you //you went there?// M1194: //Ah yes, I did.// F1189: Mmhm. M1194: The Shell Guide to Scotland. F1189: [laugh] Uh-huh. M1194: Er, and I had kept maps and that sort of //thing with me.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm.// M1194: //Yeah.// F1189: And what about when you were over there? Did you visit any bookshops or //libraries?// M1194: //Oh James Thin and er// I was fairly familiar with the one in the railway //stations.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: And in St //Andrews,// F1189: //Mm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //and up in Orkney, yeah.// F1189: So are you are you more versed after that experience where, where your parents came from? M1194: Oh yes. F1189: Mm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //Yes,// because I was meeting some of the cousins. F1189: Mm. M1194: And that sort of gives you a different slant on //the people you have known. [laugh]// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: Yes. F1189: Mm. Did you bring any books back with //you?// M1194: //Too many.// F1189: [laugh] M1194: Too many. F1189: I know the feeling. //[laugh]// M1194: //Yes.// F1189: Erm, M1194: But I already have a, or had a good collection of books, like I have a shelf full of books on Orkney F1189: Mm. M1194: that I've gathered up from all over the //place.// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: And er likewise Scotland generally and England. //[inaudible].// F1189: //Th- those books about Orkney, would they be factual books?// //Erm.// M1194: //Yes.// //Oh and erm McKay, what's his name?// F1189: //or any of the poetry or?// //George.// M1194: //Er.// //George Mackay Brown, that's// F1189: //Mm.// //Mm mmhm.// M1194: //right, yeah, that's right.// That sort of thing. //Yes.// F1189: //What do you think about him then?// M1194: Oh it's alright. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Erm [tut] what's his name, Rendall, erm, erm not William Rendall the poet? //I was familiar with his work and// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: Oh er the first name escapes me. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: He may in fact have been a very distant relation, F1189: Mm. M1194: but that's by the way, yeah. F1189: And you've ke-, you've kept all erm these these //books, have you, that you brought back.// M1194: //Yes, oh yes, yeah.// F1189: Is there anything that springs to mind particularly that you brought back from Scotland that you may not have come across here? M1194: Well, things like the erm, n-, erm museum of, oh what's the one in Portsmouth? The naval museum //there in Greenwich,// F1189: //Mm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //I thought Greenwich and the the museum there a highlight of the trip.// F1189: Mm. M1194: Yes, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: architecturally and in every other way. F1189: Mm. M1194: Erm, other books in in in particular, mm. Oh a book on Mrs Cranston's tea rooms, F1189: Uh-huh uh-huh. In Glasgow? M1194: In Glasgow, erm, I've been interested in erm Mackintosh F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: and his work and, erm, his biography, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: on hand, erm, the er [exhale] My reading as an adult F1189: Mm. M1194: would feature these fields, the likes of engineering, //erm,// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: I'm very fond of the biographies of Brunel and Telford, F1189: Mm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //and the Stevensons,// and a number of other likes that, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: naval architects and that sort of person. I read what I can in the way of marine engineering and shipbuilding, F1189: Mm. M1194: of the older //sort.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: Er, railway engineering. The books of O.S. Nock. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Erm, quite a lot in geology, F1189: Mm. M1194: and weather and climate and climate change. Er, and as you've picked already, erm a large interest in New Zealand history, F1189: Mm. M1194: erm. I'm President of the Friends of the Hocken Collections, that's the big //research library, down there.// F1189: //Oh yes, I've been down there, uh-huh.// M1194: And we've just finished producing a a new book, F1189: Mm. M1194: on everything connected with Otago between Captain Cook //and eighteen thirty-nine.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: Erm, we've got to sell five hundred copies. //So the Napier University really needs one.// F1189: //Right, [laugh] better buy one!// //[laugh]// M1194: //[laugh]// F1189: Now that's a bit of a labour of love then. //Was it a lot of work? Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Oh I didn't have anything to do with the actual production. I I I really had to leave that to other people.// //But it's an important thing.// F1189: //Mmhm mm.// M1194: Er, I've done quite a bit of res-, my oldest son, my son er er has done a doctorate in history, F1189: Mm. M1194: on the politics of business in Otago up until eighteen-ninety. F1189: Mm. M1194: And he amassed a huge amount of //stuff.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: And er a lot of it didn't get used in his thesis. F1189: Mm. M1194: And I er put a lot of that into er a Who's Who, F1189: Mm. M1194: in Otago up until about eighteen eighty //in the field of// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: members of the Dunedin Club. F1189: Mm. M1194: Erm, runholders, F1189: Mm. M1194: and er promoters of business. F1189: Mm. M1194: About a thousand names, //with// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: with potted biographies of the lot, so that a lot of my reading has centred around that sort of //thing.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: And even the Scots Magazine comes into that, because the city of Glasgow F1189: Uh-huh. M1194: banks collapse in the eighteen seventies, [inaudible]. Had wide ramifications in New Zealand, F1189: Mm. M1194: and I don't think New Zealand people have remembered that. F1189: Mm. M1194: And probably the Scots have forgotten about it. F1189: Mm, maybe! [laugh] //[laugh] Mmhm.// M1194: //It's interesting, you know, reading the history of the Free Church,// F1189: Mm. M1194: This settlement was promoted by the Lay Association, but the whole settlement only gets a paragraph or two F1189: Mm. M1194: in the histories of the Free Church, F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: which says something about the significance of this settlement F1189: Mm. M1194: in their view of //things.// F1189: //Mm. Yeah. Uh-huh.// //Yeah. Mmhm.// M1194: //I've got a shelf of Free Church history stuff.// F1189: Now why do you think that is? M1194: Well, F1189: Do you think the history of of of this settlement has been more keenly observed and written about here, from here by New Zealanders? //Mm mm mm mmhm.// M1194: //I think Otago history is well written up by comparison with other parts of New Zealand.// And er there are reasons for that. I also think that in Scotland there are still attitudes to colonials. F1189: Mm. M1194: I remember meeting, better be careful that you don't publicise this too much, F1189: Mm. M1194: I remember meeting the minister of St Giles and introducing myself as a minister from South Island of New //Zealand and I can// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: still see him looking down his nose at me. //[inhale]// F1189: //[laugh]// //[laugh]// M1194: //I know what he was thinking! [laugh]// F1189: Do you feel that then, do you feel you're you're separate, somehow then? //Despite the long heritage.// M1194: //Well, [cough]// //that's only one one incident.// F1189: //Mm mm. Yes, uh-huh.// M1194: Er, at the General Assembly //overseas visitors are introduced.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Mm. mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //You stand up one by one.// After I had er been //introduced// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: at the next gap in //proceedings a number of people came and said, "Oh, you're from Otago."// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// //Mm mmhm mmhm. Yeah.// M1194: //Er, so on and so on and so on. Very well received.// //But,// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: I still have this vision of this gentleman looking //down his nose at me. [laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// Cause the Scottish church is er, one thing that's struck me about them is that they have gone widely. //I mean they always have,// M1194: //Oh they're very wide, yes, yeah.// F1189: er to to all airts and pairts, //if if if you like, and and and have had an influence// M1194: //That's right, that's right.// F1189: in a lot of different places. M1194: Yes. F1189: But of course we see that from the Scottish //centre.// M1194: //Mm.// F1189: I just wondered what it's like to M1194: Out here. //Well when we had, er, special celebrations, the Moderator has come out here.// F1189: //[inaudible] mm mm.// M1194: Erm, James Matheson //came when he was// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Moderator of the Scottish Assembly because he'd been minister at Knox Church before that,// F1189: Mmhm //mmhm.// M1194: //here in Dunedin.// And we had Sandy McDonald //in nineteen ninety-eight, when we had the hundred and fifty years.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: Erm. F1189: Do you have a separate authority here though, or is it //You do?// M1194: //Ah yes, it's// Presbyterian Church of New Zealand //yes, yes. Mmhm.// F1189: //of New Zealand, right, uh-huh mmhm.// M1194: Nowadays they stick Aotearoa in front of it, //to be PC and all that sort of nonsense.// F1189: //Mmhm uh-huh.// Ah yes, now, can't go anywhere very far in New Zealand without refer- noticing that. //The two languages, have you ever// M1194: //Ah, yes, yeah.// F1189: wanted to learn er Maori, or //or anything about that?// M1194: //Well, unless you're actually// working amongst them, what's //the point of it?// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: On the other hand, there are three of my family work in Wellington F1189: Mm. M1194: in government //departments// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: and erm they have to er get on well with //the Maoris.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// Mmhm. M1194: My older daughter is deputy secretary of justice in charge of courts and //tribunals, and// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: she has to represent her department //on Maori mores and// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// Mmhm. M1194: she does that F1189: Mmhm. M1194: with er you know, a a proper attitude //to the task she has.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// But you you haven't read, yourself //anything to, that would, a "Teach Yourself", if you like, er Maori? [laugh]// M1194: //I've, I've had no cause to, er, no.// //I didn't even learn enough English grammar to be very good at that sort of thing.// F1189: //Uh-huh. [laugh]// M1194: But the others, they they were very careful //about it all.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// Right, you mentioned the Scots Magazine, //a wee// M1194: //Yes.// F1189: while back there as being somehow significant to some of the work that you've done. //erm with regard to the the [inaudible],// M1194: //Ah yes, well,// //all sorts of things crop up.// F1189: //mm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //I'm not just, that's only one of many things I'm involved with.// Erm, for example, er years ago I was entrusted with a [?]dip box[/?], //or a lap desk,// F1189: //Mm mm.// M1194: that belonged to Old Daddy Auld, F1189: Mmhm? M1194: you know who I mean? F1189: No, tell me, //tell me.// M1194: //Oh,// F1189: [laugh] M1194: the minister who had to erm reprimand Robert Burns and his Jeanie, //for their misdemeanours.// F1189: //[laugh] Oh right!// I know about that, //I didn't know the minister's// M1194: //You know about that, well// F1189: name. //[laugh]// M1194: //yes, well Old Daddy Auld// er, his lap dos- //lap desk// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: came out to New Zealand with friends of ours from Stepps, //and they lived in Timaru.// F1189: //Stepps, just outside Glasgow?// //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //That's right.// And er they all died off, and before the last one died off er I was asked to take this lap desk F1189: Mm. M1194: to the local er //settler's museum. They've since lost it.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// [exhale] //Uh-huh.// M1194: //Or lost track of it anyway.// Er, and he didn't realise who Old Daddy Auld was. //Well, there was a very good article on him in// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: reasonably recent //[?]I think I really ought to take that down to him sometime[/?].// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: "This is the man who owned this lap //desk that I've given you to look after."// F1189: //[laugh]// And lost! //[laugh]// M1194: //"And you've lost track of it."// //They've built a huge new storage place behind, it will come to light again, but, yeah.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh. Right uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: That's just an example. F1189: Right. //Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: //These sort of things crop up,// from time to time. F1189: And do you keep your Scots Magazines //then?// M1194: //I do.// F1189: Mm. M1194: I don't buy any particular binding things //for them though.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Mmhm. M1194: They're dear enough as they are. F1189: Are there any other Scottish publications then, that you've bought more recently, apart from that? M1194: Yes, I bought a large er book of Scottish views. //I don't// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: know who it's by now, but er I don't think my wife knows that I've bought //it yet. [laugh]// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: It's up on the on the top //shelf.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: And also a book on Scottish castles that recently came out. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Er that type of thing. F1189: Mmhm. Now, where do you buy them from? M1194: Er, there's a university bookshop, F1189: Ah right. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //and you can// indent these things, other times you pick them up and importers' er leftovers, or what do they call them, remainders. F1189: Right. Oh, I see. //Uh-huh, erm,// M1194: //Yes, that way I don't have to pay too// //yes,// F1189: //too much, yeah, cause they can be expensive.// //Because they're colour plates.// M1194: //ah well that's right, and I wouldn't buy them.// F1189: I have noticed that books are quite expensive in //in New Zealand, yeah.// M1194: //Yeah, yes.// F1189: Do you ever frequent any of the second-hand bookshops? M1194: Oh yes, I not only frequent them, I supply them! //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// M1194: Books that I have, have become superfluous to me, F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: er I have a a shop that, he gives me a good price //for them and// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: from him I buy new ones. [laugh] F1189: Right, well, you see, that's not, you you take them in and you replace them with //[laugh]// M1194: //That's right, that's right.// F1189: erm I have noticed the numbers of these in in Dunedin, it does seem to be quite a bookish place. That may be because of the University. //Or it might be other reasons.// M1194: //Er,// it's not just the University. F1189: Mm. M1194: Erm, the relationship between the University and the city //as a whole,// F1189: //Mm mm.// M1194: er there's about twenty thousand tied up in tertiary //education but a lot of them// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: are in the University set-up and you wouldn't know F1189: Mm. M1194: er from what you see of them in the local community //that that they were here.// F1189: //Mm mm.// M1194: That's not true of them all, //cause some are// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: very outward-looking, //but// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: a lot of them are self-, in a self-contained F1189: Mm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //place, yeah.// F1189: Erm, it's just that for a, quite a small city, well a small //centre anyway,// M1194: //Yes.// F1189: erm I have noticed, cause there's at least four I think, second-hand bookshops, M1194: Oh there's a lot beyond four. F1189: There's more than that, is there? //Four that I've seen. [laugh]// M1194: //Er,// yes, erm, there used to be one very good one, F1189: Mm. M1194: called Newbold's, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: and you could, it was on four //floors,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: or three, I forget which. And they had all sorts of things, for example, for a few shillings I bought John Knox's "History of the Reformation in Scotland". F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Now you, I've never seen another copy of that. F1189: Right, uh-huh. //Uh-huh.// M1194: //It's on display in the Heritage Centre now.// //And it// F1189: //Ah you gave it away then?// Er, //donated it anyway?// M1194: //No, I've got my name on it still.// F1189: Uh-huh. //Uh-huh.// M1194: //It's on loan.// //I'm not, not quitting that.// F1189: //Right, [laugh]// //That was a bit of a find.// M1194: //Erm, and you could pick up,// //well, these things could be found then.// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: You won't find them nowadays //unless// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: the man doesn't know much about it. F1189: Mm mmhm. Anything you've bought recently? And and what kind of areas would you be looking at when you go into one of these shops? M1194: Erm, not the novels. [laugh] Nor the science //fiction.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: But I I would look around in the technical side, F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1194: and erm the New Zealand //side// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: and the history, //the// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: biography. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1194: Yeah. F1189: Mmhm. Right. And what are you reading at the moment then, Reverend? M1194: Erm, serious books. Telford's er biography again, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: for about the third time. F1189: Right, so you reread books? M1194: Yes. //Yes.// F1189: //Mm.// Mmhm. M1194: Things like erm, what did I tell you, Alexander Whyte, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Alexander Carlyle, Blackie, Hugh Miller. //Er those ones I might have read four or five times.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// Mmhm. M1194: Yeah. F1189: Right, so you keep favourites then? M1194: Oh I keep them, yes. F1189: And when do you read? M1194: Late at night. F1189: You're a a bedtime reader? //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Yeah, I read quite a lot at that time, yeah.// Erm, other than that the day is well taken up, yes. F1189: What about when you go on holiday? What would you take with you then? M1194: Ah, not much. F1189: Right, so you don't read on //holiday?// M1194: //I rest my eyes.// F1189: Right. //Mmhm.// M1194: //Or read what's on somebody else's shelves, yeah.// F1189: So, is reading then for you recreation, leisure, or is it something you're doing to keep on educating yourself? //Or all of those?// M1194: //Erm, all three.// Yes. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: All three. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. I'm just wondering why you've never been tempted by fiction. M1194: Oh, when I was working as a labourer on the building of the Roxburgh Hydro Dam F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Er, //there was no-// F1189: //When was that?// M1194: oh nineteen fifty-three, fifty-four //thereabout.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Were you still a student //then? Mmhm.// M1194: //Yes, yeah.// And er that was in a community of about four hundred men, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: from all over the world. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And there were no places where you could //get any substantial// F1189: //Mmhm mm.// M1194: er books, so er Baroness Orczy's "Tartan Pimpernel", and F1189: [laugh] M1194: Hodder and Stoughton //had a lot of yellow-backed// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: things, and I went through umpteen of them. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. And were they available to you //there?// M1194: //Oh you could// get them, er in bookshops somewhere, //I don't know where I got them from now.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// //Mmhm.// M1194: //Er, yes.// F1189: Mm, oops, now, you got married to a New Zealander, //is that correct? Mmhm.// M1194: //Yes, yeah.// F1189: Erm, how many children do you have? M1194: Three. F1189: Did you do as your father had done in encouraging your children to read? They've all turned out to do rather well for themselves, so. M1194: Yeah, well erm in Ashburton where I was //for nineteen years we were just er// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: twenty metres from the library, F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1194: so [cough] they did well with F1189: Mmhm. M1194: reading and [inaudible] they were read to when they were small. F1189: Right. M1194: And then they've been encouraged to //read.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: And they still read. F1189: Mmhm. Were you read to when you were small? //I mean I know your father showed you the colour plates and// M1194: //I don't, I don't remember that.// F1189: Mm mmhm. M1194: I don't think so. F1189: And did you read to your children? //Mm mmhm.// M1194: //Dorothy did, yes.// F1189: Do you remember any of those stories? Were they familiar to you in //any way?// M1194: //Oh,// "Little Black Sambo" and things like that //that weren't supposed to be read.// F1189: //Mm mmhm. [laugh]// Er well "Little Black Sambo" is interesting cause it was actually written by a Scottish woman. M1194: Was it? F1189: Mm, did you know that? //[laugh]// M1194: //No I didn't know that.// //But you're not allowed to read it these days,// F1189: //Helen Bannerman, yeah.// M1194: yeah. //It's not, which is ridiculous but// F1189: //No, you're not, but er// er, was it part of your childhood? //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //No, no, no, no.// Erm, well, mentioning that, //there was// F1189: //Mm.// M1194: er one American sort of classic that we were read I think as children, however, it doesn't matter. F1189: Was it "Little House on the Prairie", or? //Ah, uh-huh, right, mmhm.// M1194: //That style of thing, but it wasn't that.// Nothing, my sister read "Little Women", F1189: Mmhm. M1194: or //I I don't even know what that's about, yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// I did notice the other day when I was in Mosgiel that there was a Christian bookshop there. //Erm,// M1194: //Yeah.// F1189: do you know anything about that? //Do you go there? No, no, uh-huh.// M1194: //No, I never frequent those places.// No. F1189: So in your your book buying then, where are you doing that? Mostly in the //second-hand stores, mmhm.// M1194: //In the University bookshop,// or Whitcoulls or Paper Plus, //but I don't very often buy things there.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: There used to be a shop called the Otago Heritage Bookshop, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: and I bought far too much there. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1194: Hundreds of dollars' worth. F1189: Are you addicted then to buying books? M1194: I, yes. F1189: [laugh] //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// M1194: //Yes, that's a- an honest answer to a straightforward question.// //Yes.// F1189: //Mmhm.// That's a pleasure for you then? To own them, I mean how //how do you feel about that? Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //I like to buy a book that's going to hold its value.// Yes. F1189: And how would you measure that value? M1194: Erm, that it's worth rereading. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: That if somebody had to sell it, //it would have// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1194: some value. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: That's a very mercenary way of //looking at it.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: But erm there are some books I have that er, you know, would be worth a hundred dollars, //at least.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //No trouble at all.// //Auctioned.// F1189: //Erm, uh-huh.// //and// M1194: //Mm.// F1189: do you ever sell them then, sell them on? //You do? Mmhm.// M1194: //Yes, yeah, yes, yes.// F1189: Is that an interest of yours too then, //in rare books?// M1194: //Ah I'm not a// trader. F1189: Uh-huh. M1194: I'm just making space on the shelves //for, [laugh] that's right.// F1189: //Right. For more? [laugh]// Do you read about rare books then? //Mm.// M1194: //Not greatly.// //I, if a catalogue comes my way, I look through it to see what- what's there.// F1189: //Mmhm mm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: And my son does the same, and //he might buy something for me in Wellington.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// Right, so you still get books as gifts? M1194: Oh yes, yes. F1189: More welcome than the Sunday School prizes? [laugh] M1194: Yes. F1189: Did you ever have any influence then, over what, when you were a minister, er when you had a parish over what the children got as //Sunday School prizes? Did you? Mmhm.// M1194: //No, I kept well away from that. Yes.// A- and not only that, the prizegiving thing //has gone out altogether.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// Has it? M1194: Yeah, yes. F1189: Mm. //Mmhm.// M1194: //At least as to the best of my knowledge, yeah.// F1189: That's rather sad from my point of view, because I've had a lot of mileage out of people telling me about their Sunday School //prizes. [laugh] Mm.// M1194: //Ah, yes, ah well, erm.// //Yes.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1194: No, we haven't given prizes, as they used //to be given, for years, yeah.// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// Is that the non-competitive instinct that's coming in to //Sunday School? Mmhm.// M1194: //Oh, I think they might even have// rationalised things by saying it's better to encourage children to give than to receive. F1189: Fair enough, yes, uh-huh. M1194: Yes. F1189: Erm, I suppose really you've you've been very er generous with your time, we should probably er round things up now, with just a couple of last questions. //Er,// M1194: //Yes, yeah.// F1189: could I ask you something that is quite difficult, but erm I'd like to hear what you think about it. And is that, that is if could you sum up for me what reading has meant in your lifetime. M1194: Reading has meant, erm, a stimulus to further thought, F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1194: er a broadening of the mind, erm, and a pleasure. Yes. F1189: You could say more. Erm, and the last thing is, you're a New Zealander, really, you were born here, //although you've got Scottish parents,// M1194: //Yes, yes.// F1189: do you feel that Scotland is in any way a part of your identity now? M1194: Yes, I felt particularly when I got north of Wick, F1189: Mmhm. M1194: that somehow I had been there before. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: And er because I'd heard my parents talking a lot about Orkney, when they had Orkney //friends,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1194: street names and places and people, //were al- already familiar.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// So your parents did have then friends //from Orkney come to the house? Right, uh-huh.// M1194: //Oh yes, yes yes, yes yes.// F1189: Erm, did th- did they have a- an Orkney accent, by the way? M1194: Oh some of them did. F1189: Mmhm. M1194: Yes. F1189: Your parents, that is? M1194: Er, I don't think so. F1189: No, mmhm. M1194: Don't think so, not not not not in the sense that some of the Orkney people did. F1189: Mmhm. Right, so it was more standard //Scottish then, mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //Standard standard Scottish, I think, yes.// F1189: And you've picked a bit of that up, I can //tell.// M1194: //Father used// to talk about erm, instead of "j", "ch", which is a- an Orkney //characteristic, "pass the jam".// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// Yes. [laugh] //Uh-huh. [laugh]// M1194: //"ch" like [?]chade[/?]. [laugh]// //And// F1189: //Have you ever been// er mistaken for a Scot here? M1194: Oh yes, quite often. F1189: Mm. M1194: And I was preaching at Caversham one time as a student, and afterwards half a dozen men came round and asked me was I from the north of Ireland and was I a member of the Orange Lodge. And with the brashness of youth, I said thank God I was neither. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// //[laugh]// M1194: //And they went away in a huff, [laugh] can't blame them.// F1189: [laugh] M1194: Years later, I had to look after that parish for about three years, F1189: Mm. //[laugh]// M1194: //I didn't have the courage to tell them that I'd already had an encounter with some of them. [laugh]// //Fortunately their memory wasn't too good.// F1189: //It would, ah.// Well good. [laugh] Would you ever have been tempted to go back and minister in Scotland? M1194: I would if F1189: Mm. M1194: the financial way was open to do that. F1189: Mm. M1194: Er, I think I could manage that //quite well over there, yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// Yeah. //Oh I'm sure// M1194: //Erm,// F1189: they would, the parish would enjoy you over there. //Mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1194: //I think I would enjoy them too, there's nothing I like better but// you talk about going into a bookshop, I used to go, like going into a bookshop and ostensibly looking at a book, but listening to the conversation of the people round me F1189: Mm. M1194: and the different accents //and yeah, yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm yeah, uh-huh.// Well I think we'll finish there. M1194: I think that's about time to finish! //[laugh]// F1189: //Thank you very very much// indeed, erm, for being so generous with your time, and I've enjoyed talking with you this afternoon. //Thank you. [laugh]// M1194: //Yes, well, it's been very interesting talking to you too, and I hope it's// not er upended your researches too badly. [laugh] //[laugh]// F1189: //Well, I'm sure it won't have. [laugh]// This work is protected by copyright. All rights reserved. The SCOTS Project and the University of Glasgow do not necessarily endorse, support or recommend the views expressed in this document. Information about document and author: Audio Audio audience For gender: Mixed Audience size: N/A Audio awareness & spontaneity Speaker awareness: N/A Degree of spontaneity: N/A Audio footage information Year of recording: 2009 Recording person id: 1189 Size (min): 94 Size (mb): 457 Audio setting Recording venue: Interviewee's office Geographic location of speech: Dunedin Audio relationship between recorder/interviewer and speakers Speakers knew each other: N/A Audio transcription information Transcriber id: 718 Year of transcription: 2009 Year material recorded: 2009 Word count: 13717 Audio type Interview: Participant Participant details Participant id: 1189 Gender: Female Decade of birth: 1950 Educational attainment: University Age left school: 16 Occupation: Research Assistant Place of birth: Ayr Region of birth: S Ayr Birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Country of birth: Scotland Place of residence: Glasgow Region of residence: Glasgow Residence CSD dialect area: Gsw Country of residence: Scotland Father's occupation: Journeyman joiner Father's place of birth: Ayr Father's region of birth: S Ayr Father's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Father's country of birth: Scotland Mother's occupation: Domestic Mother's place of birth: Ayr Mother's region of birth: S Ayr Mother's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Mother's country of birth: Scotland Participant Participant details Participant id: 1194