SCOTS Project - www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk Document : 1690 Title : Interview with Mary A Ronnie, Part 2, for Scottish Readers Remember Project Author(s): N/A Copyright holder(s): SAPPHIRE SCOTS Project Audio transcription F1190: And we had a lot of translated fiction, which we kept in, //you know, in the country of origin, places.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mm.// F1190: They don't keep them, //mm amalgamate them now, but// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: um, Archie was very keen on European fiction. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And it was surprising how much he got. //We were w-// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: really extraordinarily lucky, I think we only had about two shipments //that actually didn't reach us,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: on-on the //ships.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Course books were scarce and the paper was terrible, F1189: Yes, //uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //so they didn't last very long, but you// could re- - that's [?]what was[/?] the great //boon about// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: American cause it still came on beautiful paper //and wonderful bindings.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// Mmhm. F1190: But of course there were all the copyright laws that precluded. We weren't supposed to be buying //half the stuff we bought from America// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because it was supposed to come from //Britain.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But we would buy American editions and be blowed, //because// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: [cough] sometimes they just didn't get round to publishing them //in Britain.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: There had always //been a// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: tussle between libraries //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: these, sort of, //dividing the world into// F1189: //Do you think that made a,// //yes,// F1190: //two hemispheres.// F1189: do you think that made a dent really in the British //influence?// F1190: //I think it probably did.// Yeah, I-I think it //probably did.// F1189: //Mmm.// F1190: We had a lot of - and of course, our, a lot of our librarians in the major libraries went on Carnegie Fellowships to //the United States,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and got imbued with American administrative thing. And that's what changed Dunedin //Public Library// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: round from being very trad British //under McEwan,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: though had a brilliant mm book-buying, //uhm// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: but suddenly there was this ginger that came into it. And it sort of er, Archie f-, he was g-, sort of given to throwing things in the air and then sorting them. Well he sort of f- //virtually threw the whole library in the air.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Cause I can remember when I took over the commercial and technical section, it was just terrrible. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: The place was- book s-shelves were //stuffed, and there were// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: technical dictionaries from nineteen hundred and one, //and this was nineteen forty-six.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And I was standing looking at this thinking... and he he had a knack of coming up when you were looking your most goofy and saying, "You're finding it terrible", and I said, "Well yes, something has to be done with this, doesn't it?" And he said "Let's do it." F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And for a month, we went round with a big trolley, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: going through every book on the shelves and putting into the basement the ones that were dead and //gone.// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: But all the time he was talking about the principles of how you bought //books.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: It was //better than any library// F1189: //Mmhm.// //An-an- yes, this librarian// F1190: //school that existed.// F1189: when did he come to work in-in //Dunedin then, was he there wh-...?// F1190: //He came to work in nineteen// thirty-four, //and he stayed until nineteen sixty, when he went on to, off to organise libraries for UNESCO in Indonesia.// F1189: //Right, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh...uh-huh, oh, uh-huh.// He was obviously an influence on //you.// F1190: //Oh, y-,// //absolutely, he was my guru.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm,// //mmhm, [laugh], uh-huh.// F1190: //I have no doubts about it at all, absolutely.// And I got to know him again very //well, when I was working in Auckland Public Library and// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: he was living, retired //up in Warkworth.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And Peter and I would go up and spend weekends //with him, and// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: it was just great. //H-he,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: just hadn't lost any of the ginger. //And// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: just before he died at the age of not quite //ninety,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Peter had died, and I, Jim and I, //my brother and I// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: were t-in Northland and I said //"I want to see Archie."// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So we went to see him, and I was talking about the //amalgamations,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: and I said that a new library had just gone //up in Waikouaiti, and that Dunedin ran it now.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And he looked at //me and said,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: "Just what we always wanted my dear." F1189: [laugh] F1190: And that was about //the last thing he said.// F1189: //Hm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But he was just, he was an inspiration, but he, but of course he drove people nuts that didn't like change. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And he was always thinking about //change.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I was grizzling about the gardening section which was all classified at six thirty-five point nine and there were about //five hundred// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: books in it or more. And the previous librarian of that department had //bound all the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the gardening books in green. F1189: [laugh] //Themed! [laugh]// F1190: //Well I was looking at this again and being disgusted, and// //he came a-, er as usual, he come, came along.// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: And he said "You don't like it do you?" //And I said "Well no, I don't", and he said "Let's// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: throw them all on the floor and rearrange them." //And that's// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: precisely what he did. F1189: Now that is interesting because you don't associate a love of change with librarians, librarians have a different F1190: Eh. //And it's not true, that is not true.// F1189: //stereotype, don't they? Mmhm.// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //The minute computers came in,// we were //actually putting// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: stuff into a computer on eighty column punch cards. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Now putting bibliographic //data, er,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: into eighty column punch cards was not easy, //but we did it,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: because we thought that was the way to the future. //And then of course,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: miniaturisation came in, and you can do //anything.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But you couldn't then. //But we were into it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: We had our //first serials// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: list published, I think in nineteen seventy, when it was still eighty column punch //cards to enter into a computer.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And yet, yeah I'm getting, [?]beginning[/?] to annoy me //because people do say they think that// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: we're, you know, stuck in the //past,// F1189: //Yes,// uh-huh. F1190: whereas we've seized on //computers completely.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Just that, th-there is an image of, yeah, //sort of, librarians, as being// F1190: //Oh yes, yes, yes.// //[inaudible]// F1189: //staid.// //[throat] Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Staid, yes a-and have glasses and long hair.// //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// Now, what was your favourite, if you did have one anyway, your favourite author, as a, as a young woman then, when you //first started working in// F1190: //When I first started?// F1189: in libraries? F1190: I've a feeling that, you know, amongst //my favourites were people like Graham Greene and Evelyn Waugh.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmm.// //Mmhm.// F1190: //I-I-// I don't remember, aw, and Ernest Hemingway, //I was// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: a bit fascinated by, //but, er,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: also a bit repelled. Umm but there were other //people too.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Umm travel authors, some //of them.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I remember my mother reading H. V. Morton all the //time.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Anyway, I'd started off by taking "In Search of Scotland" //to her, but she read// F1189: //[throat]// F1190: all of his //things,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: after that. And I probably read some of them, //but not all of them.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But there were some travel authors that I liked. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And uh, detective novels, Dorothy Sayers, //and, you know,// F1189: //Right, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: they were, uh Margery Allingham F1189: Mmhm. F1190: erm. And because we were seeing all these coming in new, so you just, you know, you had the pick of the //world, really.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Not working in a library makes it more //difficult, you've got to put them on reserve and,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: [giggle], actually. F1189: I don't suppose you'd have had any need to buy books then //at that time? [laugh], throat// F1190: //Well theoretically no, laugh.// But I g- //always// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: wanted to own them and //particularly, I've got quite a big New Zealand collection.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //Mmhm.// F1190: //Not the f-, the fiction I've// reduced quite a bit, that's the fiction over there, //there's just -// F1189: //Now// there are two large bookshelves and a small bookshelf in here, and, then a //another small library in the opposite corner of reference.// F1190: //And that's all reference, that's all reference.// //That's all reference stuff, and part of that,// F1189: //Yes, and Chamber's dictionaries// //and [giggle]// F1190: //yes, well// //a part of that was because I// F1189: //uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: taught reference work at the //library school in Mona-, [swallow], and some of those came from that.// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: But there are other things //there, um// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: cause, [glottal], Dunedin //has written itself up a lot and there's a very nice biographical// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: thing called "Southern People". //Have you seen// F1189: //Mmhm.// //I have, yes,// F1190: //that?// //Yes, well I've got a copy of that there.// F1189: //uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I actually did some things for it so they //gave it to me.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But theoretically I'm F1189: Mmhm. //Mmhm.// F1190: //reducing// the fiction, but, then I'm reducing everything. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But it doesn't happen. F1189: No, so-so you must've em, some of these books you may have had for a long time then, //[?]have you[/?]? Yeah, mmhm, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Oh, a lot of those I've had for a very long time, erm,// some of them would've //been Peter's,// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: but not very many, but probably the collections of //Graham Greene were Peter's.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Um, but, [?]a load[/?], a lot of them were //mine.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: There's a pro-probably almost a complete s- //collection of A-, Margery Allingham, they're there.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: There's also almost a complete section of Georgette Heyer. F1189: [inhale] Really? //[laugh]// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: Now when did you start reading Georgette //Heyer? Mmhm.// F1190: //Er, oh// almost the minute she //started coming out - I think she's// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: an interesting phenomenon //because she's been// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: she's been - she's still in print. F1189: She is, //yes.// F1190: //And// she started writing about nineteen //twenties and thirties.// F1189: //Mmhm, hm.// //She did, mmhm.// F1190: //I've g- I've got// a number of friends who are very //literary, but they've got some,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: a collection of //Georgette Heyer.// F1189: //Well you know,// Georgette Heyer's been kind of reappraised, //recent-. Yes she has.// F1190: //Is that right?// //Oh well.// F1189: //Uh-huh,// and I-I must tell you that I read Georgette Heyer too, F1190: Yes. F1189: in the Carnegie Public Library in //Ayr. [laugh]// F1190: //Right - in Ayr? Well there you are.// //Well -// F1189: //And I think she is// for a lot of young woman, an entrée into more //serious fiction actually, mm.// F1190: //Yes, and I don't think it's just women.// //Uh, m-// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: my brother had a complete set of Georgette Heyer //too.// F1189: //Did he?// //Uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes he did.// And if got bored with //things,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: he just liked her s-, her sort of er, descriptions of the //period, and of course he was// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: always interested in-in the Napoleonic //Wars and er,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: the, course "Her Spanish Bride" is really quite //you know, seriously historical novel.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: "An Infamous //Army", and I think// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: that's when he started going into //them and then he// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: got he-he found them quite //amusing.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And he, er, funnily enough he hadn't read Jane Austen until the BBC began to do the television ones, //and I got him,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: he didn't have television, but he'd come up here and watch. So he bought a complete Jane //Austen, and he read that, cover to cover.// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh.// Right w-so, was this the-the BBC ones that were done in the sixties? //I think, they did// F1190: //Yes, well no,// later than that. F1189: "Pride and Prejudice", in the F1190: Yes, //em, er, oh, er,// F1189: //sixties.// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //no, it was the films he saw.// Was there a series that must've been F1189: Mmhm. F1190: well it was after I'd come back to Dunedin, //and I came// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: back about nineteen //ninety-six.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So they must've been in the late nineties, and they did "Sense and Sensibility", //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: "Pride and Prejudice" F1189: Oh yes, //um, er, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, and "Emma".// F1190: //er on-on the cinema.// And "Emma". F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: And I was away for a //holiday,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and, Jim told me at the //end of it,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: wh-while I was away F1189: Mmhm. F1190: he had gone twelve times to see "Sense and //Sensibility". [laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: He just thought it was //all so beautiful.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: And part of it was that, eh, and of course he liked //the language.// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: So Jane Austen was //obviously somebody, I mean I've got a complete set of Jane Austen// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: somewhere in there. F1189: Now did-did you read Jane Austen at //school, was that part of th-. Yeah, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes but we didn't,// I don't remember having to read it at school, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: which would probably have made //me dislike it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: The other person I've realised of course was John Buchan. I'd - that was er, //that was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: in our house. //I'd forgotten about him.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But he was very, //very much part of-of-of// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: er, of the reading. F1189: Yes, //uh-huh.// F1190: //And,// you know, M-Mr McCall Smith is now becoming an a-, sort of, addiction. F1189: Now int-it's interesting you mention Alexander //McCall Smith, cause// F1190: //Yeah, yes.// F1189: I looked for his books in the lib-, the Dunedin //Public Library.// F1190: //They're always out.// //They've got the lot.// F1189: //Yes.// //Now I did wonder about that, cause I thought "Surely,// F1190: //[laugh] Yes, yes.// Yep. F1189: they can't, //not be here," [laugh], uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //They've got mult-, they've got multiple copies of them actually.// //But you're lucky,// F1189: //So they're w-, they're all out.// //Mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: //you're lucky if you find them in, yes.// F1189: Very popular. //Now why// F1190: //Very popular.// F1189: do you think that is? //Mm.// F1190: //Don't know.// //It's the way he writes, partly.// F1189: //[laugh] Mmhm.// F1190: I think he does - he actually writes in a very //clear way.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But I think he //also, for// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: anybody that knows Edinburgh, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: he, you know he really has got it. //He's got it as a sort of...// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: it's-it's interesting isn't it? F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But he-he he's got a f-, huge following, and if I find one in on the shelves, it's lucky. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And usually I have to put in a, //a reserve for them.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: So he's he's an addiction //I think, that people// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: start. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I'd like to hear him speak, because everybody says he's very good at, ah, er, interesting //speaker.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Um, Andrew Rankin came out. Andrew Rankin is another one that everybody likes, you know, his Edinburgh things, //these Rebus novels.// F1189: //Oh the Rebus novels,// //yes, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //And he came, and he spoke,// and the //library// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: er, hired the co-, the one of the co-, little concert chamber //place,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and gave free admission to anybody that wanted to come and hear him speak. F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: And a local I think it must have been a local radio //person, interviewed him.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And it was absolutely //fascinating. I really enjoyed it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Cause it gave you an idea of what he was up to, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and what he's up to of course, he's always trying to reform something, you know, something he sees in Edinburgh that needs fixed. F1189: Yes, uh-huh, //do y-// F1190: //He -// F1189: really? And, d- //did you// F1190: //[?]Yes[/?].// F1189: enjoy that then, //hearing about that? Uh-huh, aw.// F1190: //Yes, yes.// And that, er, I'd got, //to be// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: quite honest I'd virtually stopped reading him, //because// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the, you know, all these detective //novels seem to me to be// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: interesting for the first few, and then they've a //formula.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //Mmhm, mm, mmhm.// F1190: //And you th-, you can practically predict what's going to happen, and you get tired of the// people. And I'd got tired of Rebus. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But there were things about him that I thought was funny, because, apparently the Fettes, you know the p-, headquarters of the er, the police, //got a// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: new police dog //which they called// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: Rebus. F1189: [laugh] F1190: And he said, "I do wish they'd called him Rankin." //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Which I thought was lovely.// And the other thing that I thought was c-, was unique to //Scotland was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: one of his books came out, and I think it was the Chief Constable of Scotland //reviewed it. Now// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: can you imagine a chief constable of anywhere else reviewing a //book on detective novels? Cause I can't.// F1189: //A book, yes, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: And it s-, it had a heading that said something like erm "Time you came in for your medical, Rebus." //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: Something like that, and I thought "Now that is Scottish, //that is a// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: very Scottish thing." F1189: Mmhm. F1190: That the Chief Constable, would, would actually do //a review.// F1189: //Mmhm. [inhale]// Oh er, where did he d-do this //review?// F1190: //I think it was in// The Scotsman. F1189: Really? //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //I think so.// It must've been on one of my wanderings. //This must be a ye-, few years back.// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: I just thought that the, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I'd never, I just couldn't //envisage// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: anywhere else in the world //that this would happen.// F1189: //No, no.// But I I th-, I think actually the police quite like F1190: I think they love //it.// F1189: //Yeah,// //th-these books, yes, they do, uh-huh,// F1190: //Er they do, yes, yes.// //That's what I th-, that's what I think is so interesting too,// F1189: //uh-huh, uh, mm.// F1190: is that, he's part of this //community.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: But he was very funny, cause he said Rebus had to //retire.// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: Erm and he said "When you look at some of these other people that have been writing novels - Adam Dalgleish must be ninety-five." //[laugh]// F1189: //Yes, [laugh]// //yes, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //[?]And it was th-[/?], "It's realist, real-time", this was eh, quite,// that was really, //that was very entertaining,// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: and the library, er, actually organised //that, and had this session with him.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// //[inhale]// F1190: //So th-// //yeah. Oh yes.// F1189: //Oh he's far-travelled then, isn't he, our Mr Rankin.// //Mmm, mmhm.// F1190: //Oh yes, oh yes.// Yes, and there are a lot of //people that// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: that r-read him, //I think he's high demand.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And, it's true of lots of people, there are er, now a lot of New Zealand novelists that are well-read //here.// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: But, New Zealanders didn't take a lot of interest in their own literature probably until the //last,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: well post-war //anyway, an-and then it developed, and there are some very good really, I mean you get// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: people like Janet Frame, who's sort of world famous. F1189: Yes, um, I'll be honest with you, she was really the only person I had //heard of, em, mmhm.// F1190: //Oh, I think that's true of, uh, yes.// You see I've got favourites like Barbara Anderson //whom I regard as very good, um.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Erm, I wonder if I've got any of them kicking around now, probably not. Oh, Elizabeth Knox. She's another one. //You do-, I don't think - you'll have seen her, I think, abroad.// F1189: //Oh yes, uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// I've also seen, I think there was, someone was shortlisted for the Booker Prize F1190: Yes. //I'm sure one of them won -// F1189: //this year.// //Mmhm, a New Zealander, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //the one that ra-, that won the Booker Prize was-was Keri Hulme, "the bone people".// And "Mister Pip" F1189: Mmhm. //Yes.// F1190: //was shortlisted.// //That's very good, I enj-, really enjoyed// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: "Mister Pip" - now that's a //male author.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //I'll try// F1190: //There's ano-.// F1189: and remember this one //though, Elizabeth Knox,// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: cause that looks quite //interesting, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes, it is,// that's a sort of almost autobiographical one //that one, but// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: she's written some good novels. F1189: Uh-huh. //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //Barbara Anderson,// who's I think very good, she's one of the best, //and she's just done her autobiography, but I haven't, I haven't read it yet.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But they're interesting, but Elizabeth Knox //is one of the, one of the people.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: That's I think I must've bought //that, you see// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: why do I buy it? I should get it out the library //shouldn't I?// F1189: //I know,// //but if you love books,// F1190: //[laugh]// //Yes, really can't resist them, that's right.// F1189: //sometime you want to have them. [laugh]// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //And a lot of the local history, I like to have that,// because it's, you know, we're always poking in it, //you know,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: somebody'll be talking around the table and you //get a question,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you find it. I find myself over in that corner //and, [giggle],// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: digging out the //reference stuff, or getting,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: getting a b- //book from the-the shelves, in// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// //Well that's interesting,// F1190: //there.// F1189: that you, that you've shifted your historical interest to here, //to y-, to// F1190: //Yes, yes.// F1189: to your own //locality then, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //I think I, that I do that much more. I've got,// you know I've got a bit of Scottish history. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I think, the trouble with me about Scottish history is that we did a lot in Glasgow, //I used to// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: to break my heart over it. F1189: Mm. F1190: I would, I-I can remember at eight, going home to my mother and saying "I just wish one of the Stuart kings could've died in his bed." //She thought this was the funniest thing.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: But it was my //way of saying,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you know, w-why were they always killed //when they were so young, or at war, or,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and I just broke my heart over Scottish history. //And I// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: c-, I cou-, I can't read about the Clearances. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I've begun to come more to terms with that recently, because there's been such a lot of talk about the, um, amount of emigration that came out //after the Clearances.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But it's, it's a it's a sad history, //really,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: and I find it quite upsetting, so I think in a way I was probably quite pleased to //not read it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mm, mmhm.// //[inhale]// F1190: //Always happy to read about// literature and the philosophy //and [?]John[/?], you know, all the sort of...// F1189: //Mmhm, [inhale]// do you think it's taught that way here, Mary, as a, as a kind of tragic history? F1190: No. //I don't know that it's// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: taught here at all. F1189: No? F1190: I don't think //it's taught here at all.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Not separately //from British history.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: I would very much doubt it. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I don't know //enough about what this curriculum looks like, but I think it's pretty unlikely that there's anything// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// //[inhale] There's one// F1190: //seriously...// F1189: other aspect o->of sort of Britishness, an-and then I'll, I'll have a wee break for you, //if you like, you've been talking a long time.// F1190: //Mmhm. [laugh]// F1189: Ehm an-and a genre of, of reading as well, //and tha-that's// F1190: //Yeah.// F1189: to do with the Royalty. //Em, now how,// F1190: //Oh, yes.// F1189: how are they viewed, or how did you view the Royal Familiy, say when you left em, //Scotland?// F1190: //Well,// I think t-, //Glasgow// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: was always slightly //disrepesctful. [laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: Cause I have this //memory of// F1189: //[cough] [throat]// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //December nineteen thirty-six, which was// not long before we left, F1189: Mm. F1190: and it was when th-, Edward the Eighth abdicated. F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: And all along Byres Road were students singing "Hark the herald angels sing, Mrs Simpson's pinched our //king!" [laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: So there was a certain amount of //disrespect// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: uh, er, about it. But I think they became... I, everybody here //became, and I think everybody became very// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: attached to, erm George the Sixth. F1189: Hm. F1190: A-anyway they felt that he was not had not been brought //up to be king, and here he was,// F1189: //Hm, mmhm.// F1190: with a speech impediment, and the shyness //and all the rest of it,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and great admiration for the, you know, the Duchess of York //becoming// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: queen, and all the rest of it. And that feeling //for royalty// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: was intense here. And when the Queen, and, Prince Philip came out in //nineteen fifty-three, which was// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: the year after the coronation, the place went //mad.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: Thousands //turned out to see them.// F1189: //Mmhm,// //mmhm.// F1190: //Now// they can come and go from the country and nobody even //notices.// F1189: //Mmhm,// //mmhm.// F1190: //It has// just altered utterly. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But at that stage, it was excitement, and here was this, //glamourous young lady, and// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: um, it was just... F1189: Mmhm, did you go to see the Queen anywhere //when she came? Did you? Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Oh, yes, we - everybody did, I mean we all,// and there were stories about the pair of them, and wh-where they //stayed and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: just nothing else //mattered, for that,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: for that whole time they were here. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: The next time they came back must have been quite a lot later, because Princess Anne and Prince Charles came //with them.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And, you know, people turned out in-in F1189: Mmhm. F1190: quite big numbers then, but there wasn't the same intensity of feeling as this young, glamorous //queen.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And of course, er, added to it, of course was the Ed Hillary story, that he had climbed //Everest,// F1189: //Ah,// //uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //just at the right moment you see.// So h-, and uh, he remained //of course, and he still is, probably// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: the great New Zealand hero. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And they, mm, eh, we all mixed up in this, this sort of //royal coronation thing.// F1189: //Aye, right, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: But that's gradually //all faded away.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And, I don't think New Zealand is ready for a republic. F1189: Hm. F1190: The Australians were more or less //ready,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and what finished that off was that they couldn't decide how to elect a president. F1189: Mm, mmhm. F1190: And uh, that m-may in fact be the stumbling-block for everybody, //after// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: watching the circus of American presidents. F1189: Yes indeed, //uh-huh, yes, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Who wants to elect a president?// F1189: Now what about the we still get them in Britain now, sort of, magazines about royalty //and quite glossy books on royalty. Erm.// F1190: //Oh oh! They reckon that you put a// photograph of a royal person //on the front of a woman's// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: weekly and you sell it. //That's the way to do it.// F1189: //Mmhm, really? Uh-huh.// F1190: Yes, //always.// F1189: //Here too?// F1190: Oh yes, //oh yes.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: They b-, they've got books on, er, //the Royal Family in the library, and I'm sure that they go out,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: get worn out, //quite regularly.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //Mmhm.// F1190: //Oh yes,// it's still, and there's still a fascination with the two princes, you know, even though everybody thinks, //you know,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: "What the heck?" Um, they still want to know what their ladies are doing and //whether they've// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: broken up with whatever-their-names-are, //and, er// F1189: //Oh, they have.// //[laugh] Yes,// F1190: //[laugh] they seem to have, don't they?// //Yes.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: And, //eh you know, I just feel sorry for them, because// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: I think they've got, er, a hopeless life. F1189: Mm, //mmhm.// F1190: //And I think// that's now the way people are //much more// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: feeling about //the Royal Family.// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: I have a feeling in Scotland that the one person that they think is okay //was Princess Anne.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //Yes.// F1190: //You know,// they'd have her for queen, //she's okay.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: She's out there working, she's not making a //fuss.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Well she supports the S-Scottish rugby team. //[laugh]// F1190: //And she comes out, yes, and sings "The Flower of Scotland" in the middle of Murrayfield. [laugh]// //But I, er, yo-you get// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: this sort of feeling that she's the right //sort of person for-for Scotland too.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //It suits them, she's not,// she's not the glamourpuss. //and she clearly... th-the-the life is okay.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mm, mmhm.// F1190: And I was interested, not so much this time, but the previous time when I was in Edinburgh, I was seeing The Scotsman every day. And it had lists of what she was doing. //And she was off in little places, she was going to small schools and - it wasn't big, flourishy stuff.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: She was doing these practicalities of being around. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And everybody felt this was //okay.// F1189: //Mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: I don't know what they found, I mean, they got as excited about Princess Diana's death as everywhere //else, I mean// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: George Square, Glasgow was covered with flowers. F1189: Mmhm, mmhm. //And how was it here// F1190: //But I -// //oh, I think, I wasn't// F1189: //at that time?// //Oh, you weren't, right, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //here. It happened when I happened to be in Canada.// And that was a - that was the oddest thing. //Mm, uh,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I was out on an island in the middle of Howe Sound. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And we hadn't heard a //word, and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Murray, the, m-my cousin's son, had been with his mates, down in the b-, the, sort of I think, mm, just listening to //the radio, and// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: they had heard about, //Princess// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Diana being killed. And we were sitting having afternoon tea on the Sunday afternoon, and Murray suddenly said "Oh, did you know that Prin-, that, Lady Di is, has been killed?" //Quite casually.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And we said "What? Say that all over //again?" And he said,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: "Do you know, Princess Diana, she was killed in Paris last night." Now they had thought nothing much //about it.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: Well I left Vancouver that day and I went off to stay with f- Oxford friends of Peter's //in Montreal,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and I don't think they stopped looking at that television F1189: Mmhm. //Mmhm.// F1190: //all week.// And yeah, I thought, "Well, when I get to Glasgow, it won't be like this, it won't be like this." And it - there it was. F1189: It was, //yes, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //Flowers strewn everywhere.// F1189: Mmhm. F1190: There was, it was a sort of worldwide //hysteria, wasn't it?// F1189: //Mmhm.// It was indeed, yeah. //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Extraordinary.// The whole thing. And yet when it had started off //with those kids in Vancouver,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: they weren't feeling like that //at all.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Now that's interesting, isn't it? Maybe it's a generational //thing, mm, mmhm.// F1190: //Well I wondered about that, but they// //uh, er, [inaudible],// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: sh-, here she was, she'd been killed //in a car accident.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: And i-it-it was hours after, you know mm, it was afternoon, //and they'd heard it, probably the night before.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// Mmhm. F1190: And that was it. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Well I wasn't here of course, I //didn't see what happened here but// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: I don't think it would be any different. F1189: Yes. //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //It would've been wall-to-wall Princess Diana.// //And this was// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: American, often, stations //that we were watching in Montreal.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: And it was just //non-stop.// F1189: //Yes,// it it w-was big news in-in the States, I think. //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, yes it was.// Then there was all the criticism of the flags on //Buckingham Palace, and how they// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: weren't there on the, erm, you know, all this //stuff.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //They couldn't win, could they?// It was awful. Well I think we should make lunch now, do you? F1189: Shall I give a wee...? And we've had a wee break again, erm, and I wanted to start back in, Mary, by asking you about, er, going back to Scotland, and how you felt about that the first time you went back. F1190: Well I found it very exciting, really, because, [throat], I think I wanted to go for a long time, and of course all my //contemporaries had long gone and done// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: their OE, and I didn't really want to just sort of go and trip around. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Well I had written to Glasgow Univ-, er to Glasgow Public //Libraries,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: said was there any chance of a job. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Well they were very cautious. //They said would I// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: come in and see them? But when I went in to see them //they gave me// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a job, and I spent the first month, in the the Superintendant's division, //which// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: was run by a-a-a...librarian called Miss French, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: who was very good, she was just great. But after about a month of this they said how would I like to go out to Castlemilk, with this-this new branch, that they were starting, to get the books ready. //So I went out there.// F1189: //Mmhm, now what-what year was this?// F1190: Nineteen-sixty? F1189: Right, so Castlemilk really was still being //built, then, was it? Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm,// F1190: //It was brand new, there wasn't a single public amenity in the place.// F1189: mmhm. F1190: There were two policemen on scooter bikes F1189: [laugh] F1190: who circled the //place,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: and they would tell me wonderful stories //about// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: all the best safe-breakers //in Glasgow, lived in// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Castlemilk Road. F1189: [laugh] Now Castlemilk Road's a big long //road, [laugh].// F1190: //It's a big long road, yes, it's a big long road.// //And we lived down Castlemilk Road, just a bit down, because it was easy to get a bed and breakfast [?]over[/?] there.// F1189: //Mmhm, [giggle], mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And they were the best, the houses were the m-, the most beautifully rigged-out in Glasgow, //because// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: with the money they made from //safe-breaking, they re-lined them in oak and mahogany, and all this,// F1189: //[laugh], [laugh]// F1190: he said - but really they were innocents //abroad,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: because every time they came to a //safe-break,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: there was a signature on it. They all had their own methods and they never changed them. //So they'd// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: go to visit them, and half the time the loot was still in the house. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: So we got to know a lot about //sort of Glasgow life from them.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: But it was an interesting place, because we had this whole stock, //brand-new stock for a library,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and the librarian, who was a Manchester man actually, had decided that it had to have the best //furniture, that this// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: may have been a sort of slum-clearance //area,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: but he b- - so we had Parker Knoll chairs, //and mahogany bookshelves// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and, it was before the days of carpet on the floor, so we had linoleum, but, //very attractive,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: cream with red and blue stripes, and F1189: Mmhm. F1190: it was a v-, //it was an// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: interesting place. //Underfloor heating with water pipes,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: which meant of course when the heat went off in the late afternoon, //it kept warm.// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: The place was never //cold.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Cause it can be cold up there, on top //of that hill, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Th- well, you're a long way up from, b-,// from, well, King's Park was the //nearest sh-centre.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But there was not a shop in the area. //I think there// F1189: //No.// F1190: something like eighty thousand people //there,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: and no pubs, no shops, nothing, and we were the first. Well eventually, they opened the library, and, the Lord Provost, who was a woman, arrived to open the library, //and the,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: c-, a lot of the Glasgow councillors came up. And we could hear this cheering, //up the road.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And they reckoned that more people came out to see them coming out to open the //library,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: than had come for the last royal //tour.// F1189: //Oh.// F1190: But what really interested me was, I expected them to //be arriving in their Rolls Royces.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Not on your life. //They arrived in// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Glasgow double decker buses, //[laugh],// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: which seemed to me to be a nice Glasgow //touch.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: Now after that, um, I handed the library over to the person who was going to //carry it on,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and I went to the Central Stirling's Library, which was in the old Royal Exchange, F1189: Oh yes, //uh-huh, yes, uh-huh.// F1190: //where the Museum of Modern Art is now.// That was a lovely //building,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: but boy was it hard //work, you know, if somebody asked you a question, and you were at the front door, you ran a half a block to get it and back.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But Miss French, who'd been in //charge of the, th-, was there as a librarian -// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: deeply resented by the men, //because// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: no woman had occupied as senior a position up till //then.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But she didn't worry, //it did-, never worried her, so I// F1189: //Mmhm, hm, mmhm.// F1190: I had a very, er happy time, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: cause I'd never encountered a downtown branch //where all your work was concentrated// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: in the two hours of lunch //hour,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and immediately after work at //night.// F1189: //Yes,// quite interesting aspect //of-of Glasgow libraries that, isn't it? Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Oh, yes it was - quite different from the, from the eh, b-, th-the, er// really the branch libraries. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: The thing that interested me too was that Glasgow allowed free access to their libraries, not just for the people that lived //in Glasgow,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: but for the people that worked in //Glasgow,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because they calculated that they contributed to the economy //of the city.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So in fact we were serving roughly a //population of probably a million and three-quarters,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: not just the million that //were actually in Glasgow City.// F1189: //Mm, that's right, uh-huh.// F1190: And I always thought that was a, it was a really //generous sort of, er, proposition.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: And then for the last two weeks, they let me go into the Mitchell, which of course was, a male, completely male, privileged, //dominated place.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: And that was, that was interesting, //cause it really// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: was great. And they were just moving over from putting into classified order, they'd always had it so that it was under accession order, so the latest accessions were near the //desk, cause they were asked for most.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And they were changing over to //having it in Dewey order, and the m-,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: the boys didn't like this very much. F1189: Oh, change and //librarians, [laugh],// F1190: //Ch-chan-, that's right, yes, [throat] yes.// //[throat], [?]Wasn't[/?] good enough.// F1189: //uh-huh, uh-huh.// How long were you out in Castlemilk for, then? F1190: [click], I must've been about three months //out there.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Um at least that, //perhaps four.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Because we we went up long before Christmas, //because I// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: remember the d-, going down in the bus at night, //after dark of course,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and all the Christmas trees //in everybody's window, er and it was lovely.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So I think it was probably about four months //in Castlemilk.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Erm, mostly not with the public, but I was there for two, about probably two weeks //after it started,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: and then handed it over to the //person that was taking charge of it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmm.// Cause I was going to ask you, if you, if you noticed anything different about about people's reading tastes in //in Castlemilk, the likes of// F1190: //[throat]// F1189: Castlemilk, compared to //say for example in Dunedin.// F1190: //No I don't think I did actually.// Erm there was a, a very condescending attitude //with some people about Castlemilk,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: but the first enquiry I got was from a fellow who was a retired engineer, //and he wanted// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: Marcel Proust. F1189: Ah! //Yes.// F1190: //So,// you know, there they //were, wanting to read seriously, and the// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: children. It was a, in a way, it was almost a disaster, because the Loans Board //had dictated the size of the library, because of// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: th-the same thing happened here //of course, money was scarce.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And the children's //library was far too small, f-for the k-,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: for the number of... and we simply had to limit the number that could be in //at any one time.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And the kids would queue up, out there in, practically snowy //weather,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: with their books in plastic bags, cause //they were "split-new, Miss", you see, and// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, [laugh].// F1190: you know, //there they were, th-,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: waiting for an hour out //there,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: in order to get in. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And the books were just, you know, just flooded //in and out.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: It could have been, it should have been at least four times the size, //that children's library.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I don't know whether anything's been enlarged since. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: It's probably not quite as children-dominated now anyway, because they would be young families, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: just moved in //there.// F1189: //Yes,// //yes, uh-huh.// F1190: //D-.// F1189: I think what's happened now is that they've changed it internally, but I think it's still the s-, the same, same building. //Em, yes, uh-huh.// F1190: //Is that right? Uh-huh.// F1189: And it's right on the main drive. //Mmhm, [inhale]// F1190: //That's right, yes.// F1189: it's interesting what you say about it being the first amenity there. //That,// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: isn't that interesting //about Glasgow?// F1190: //Isn't it? Yes.// F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Yes, er, it was a F1189: Mmhm. F1190: uh, er, it, you know, the, sort of great British love of fish and chips, //[?]There was[/?],// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: there was a chap who brought a a mobile fish and chippery up, //at lunchtime, and, I think about half the staff went waltzing out to get their fish and chips.// F1189: //[laugh] Uh-huh mmhm.// F1190: But they were very well set-up, I, //it was the first// F1189: //Hmm.// F1190: time I'd seen a library //staffroom that// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: actually had a little cooker, and //facilities. I mean we,// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: we were used to, [inhale], [inhale], most primitive conditions down in the basement of the old Public //Library here.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And while there was a kitchen, it wouldn't, nothing could have called it modern. F1189: Uh-huh, //uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //It had, probably been installed in nineteen hundred and eight// //when the library opened.// F1189: //[laugh]// //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: //Certainly, there was certain aspects of it// that were - but th-the whole thing was er, very entertaining, //cause// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: putting new //stock in on the shelves, and// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: The other thing that I //l-l-// F1189: //And did you get any// er, say in selecting //what the stock would be?// F1190: //No, no, n-no,// //the b-, selection was all done, it was, we were just simply// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: handling the stuff and making sure it was //catalogued an-and, in onto the shelves.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I think what fascinated me most, I think at the end, was that every day the boater - it was always the boater - the boater came round, once a day, with cartons of //books.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And we'd go out, there'd be six of us, //and we'd help the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: mm, the driver to move the stuff into the //library.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And then they would go //away.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And when I went round at the very end to say goodbye to the head man //who ran all these,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: um, delivery, //blokes,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and I said to Mr MacArthur, you know, "It's been great meeting your blokes, and they were great," and he said, "Well I've got to tell you, that no other librarian in this city, ever carries a book from a vehicle to a //library.// F1189: //Ah! [laugh]// F1190: And I said, "But we did all the time," and he said "Oh, we noticed, //we noticed.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: It just shows you what New Zealanders do." Then he looked at me and said, "But you did have a good start." //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: That was sort of my farewell //to Glasgow Libraries.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: I loved it. //I really had a great time there.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: I was going for three months, and I stayed seven and a //half, so,// F1189: //Yes,// //so, you went back with your mother,// F1190: //which was actually...// //Yes,// F1189: //is that, is that right?// //Before I,// F1190: //yes, er.// F1189: go on, wh-what's the OE, by the way? //You mentioned... Right, I see, uh-huh.// F1190: //Oh, Overseas Experience, yes, that's what all th-, they all call it now.// //[laugh]// F1189: //Oh right, and you wanted to have that, did// //you? Mmhm.// F1190: //Well// no, I just wanted to go home. Nobody talked //about that// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: then, but er, almost all my friends went off and had a year or //two in Britain.// F1189: //Mm.// //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm,// F1190: //And in those days there were no limitations of course -// //y-you could// F1189: //mmhm.// F1190: go and you could stay as long as you //liked, because all the rules hadn't come in.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Um, they came in, probably about nineteen sixty, sixty-one, //things began to get tougher.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// //Hm.// F1190: //I didn't ever// have a problem, because I could have got a British //passport// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: if I'd wanted - //I haven't, I've got a New Zealand one, but,// F1189: //Well yes, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: erm, no, I think, ah, oh, wh-what I thought was that I wanted to I felt a bit //isolated here,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you know, I hadn't even been to Australia by that time. And I I suppose I'd been working pretty solidly with doing degrees //and stuff.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: But also, I was aware, my mother had developed angina, [throat], while I was at library //school actually,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: in the fifties. And I could see that progressively she was doing a bit less //all the time,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: and I thought `If we're going to go to Britain we'd better go soon.' And that's what //really made me decide [?]upon[/?]// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: nineteen sixty, erm I don't know, I guess I F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I don't know quite why that year was suitable, //but it w-, it seemed to work anyway, and we did.// F1189: //Mmhm, mm, mmhm.// F1190: [throat] She turned out to have a-a very good time, //because a lot// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: of her f-, old friends were still //there, she was in her mid-sixties.// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh.// So it was a good time. //Mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //It was good time, it was a great time for her.// F1189: [cough], [throat] F1190: And I got very closely //friendly with some of her friends.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And, you know, they became home from //home, when I went back to Britain after that,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: until, well, they've all, er, uh, her //generation of course have// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: died long since. But it was a great, it was a great //success,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: really. So, n-n-never been sorry that we did it, and //she enjoyed it,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and she enjoyed travelling. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: We would take buses //around and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: it was quite good, I would have a day or a half off in the middle of the week at //Castlemilk.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And we closed on //Wednesday.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: [?]I think[/?] mm Glasgow had a half day //that day, so y-, half-shut day.// F1189: //That's right, half-shut day. [laugh]// F1190: And y-you could go off to Edinburgh, //and it would be open, you see.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: So, you know, w-we had a quite a good time mid-week //as well as weekends.// F1189: //[laugh]// //An-// F1190: //[throat] And we did travel around// //quite a bit of Scotland, we saw,// F1189: //[cough], mmhm.// //Mmhm.// F1190: //we were right up to Inverness, and took bus trips// //across and train trips, and so on.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And we had relatives in //England, so// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: we saw them, and she had still a lot of friends in //Ayrshire,// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //you know, that were in Kilmarnock, and Darvel, and New Mills, and all// those sort of areas. So it really was //good.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But, erm, she had quite a bad heart attack just before we left Scotland. //And// F1189: //Aw, mmhm.// F1190: I guess well she died within a year of us coming //back.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: And her heart had really just //worn out, which// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: is ex-, [?]in fact[/?] funnily enough it's exactly what happened with my brother. F1189: Mm. F1190: Well he he was a good deal older, he was twenty years //older.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Well-well perhaps not as much// as that, but twelve at least. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And [throat] there must have been a, sort of, //genetic thing// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: because, [?]well[/?] her brother //died of the same sort of thing.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// And how-how did you make the journey to, erm //back then?// F1190: //Oh, we// went by sh-sea, of //course, er.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Erm I felt afterwards that we could have flown, but we were a bit doubtful about her health. F1189: Mm. F1190: But she liked sailing, she never got seasick, it was me that got //seasick.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But we had - we decided to go the other way, we'd come through Panama. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: So we, it just happened that we were in a gap when Suez was //opened - it had been closed, and it closed again.// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But we went on the "Strathaird", from Sydney. So we took a ship from Wellington to Sydney, had a few days there, //about four or// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: five days there which we enjoyed a lot. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And then about five weeks to Britain. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Now that was a very good journey, because we stopped at every port round the Australian //coast, during// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: which time I was seasick all the //the way.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: And then we headed north to //Colombo// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: M-Bombay, which was my first //glimpse of// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: India, and I fell for it, I've been back th-, I don't know how many times since. And, Aden was //still a port then,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Port S-, er, Port Said, then we were just into the Mediterranean when the ship broke //down,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: she was getting onto her last legs. So we had an extra time in Naples, extra time in //Marseilles,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: it was like being on a //cruise ship! But it wasn't!// F1189: //Yes, [laugh], it sounds like it,// //[laugh].// F1190: //It was, it was the// time of the Rome //Olympics,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: so everybody, practically, got off at //Naples, so we had// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: this empty ship, F1189: Mmhm. //Oh,// F1190: //from there on, which was// //great.// F1189: //and// it's still quite a long time, //isn't it, even in nineteen-sixty.// F1190: //Ah, yes, it was abou-// //eh, yes.// F1189: //Five weeks.// //Mm.// F1190: //It was,// it was a good five weeks, but //of course we were doing// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a lot of ports of //call,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: and you stopped for a least //a day in them.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And it-it was three, three days across //the Tasmand,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm mm.// F1190: three very rough //days,// F1189: //Mmm.// F1190: cause it was winter, we went off in July, //which was not a good time to travel around the Australian coast// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: really, it was pretty rough. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But it was a good ship, and it was one of these P&O liners that was built F1189: Mmhm. F1190: for the //Eastern trade, so it was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: r-right for - we c-, headed into the monsoon //out of Bombay,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: but sh-she just //handled it, it was,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: it was a great ship. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And I think, it was scrapped probably within two or three //years.// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: It was the, almost the end of the big days of going by sea. F1189: Yes, uh-huh, //uh-huh.// F1190: //And we came back// through Canada, t- "Empress of //England" across the North Atlantic,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: into the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, //and of course a whole day in the L-, Saint Lawrence seaway, it was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: beautiful. And we took the buses across //Canada,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: stayed with my uncle, and got an Orient //Liner down// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: to Vancou-, t-, from Vancouver //to Oakland.// F1189: //Mmhm, that's a// proper journey, isn't it? //But yes, [laugh], uh-huh, mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, yes, so we did this, we d-, we'd sort of done the - round by sea,// because that was the last time, //it's been air// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: ever since. F1189: Now, you must have known you'd have lots of time for doing not very much on that, //that journey - ehm,// F1190: //Yes, yes,// //I think I slept most of the time.// F1189: //did you take...? [laugh]// Well of course, you were sick, //weren't you? Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes, oh, th- I think I,// even when in the f-, sort of fine weather, but my mother //had a great time.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Somebody said to me, "Didn't you find it a //disadvantage,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: being at sea with your mother watching?" And I said "Oh, no, it was me that had //to get out of the way!" [exhale]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: She had a couple of male followers for the whole journey. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: So I used to vanish off somewhat and let her be. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: Ha, so, it was good, //I enjoyed it.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //I feel sad for kids nowadays, they// don't have this fun of the sea //voyage.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And I think, g-going from here, to the busyness of London, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: can be a real //shock to the system,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: because it is just so full of //people.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And here we are, you know, sort of in this empty world. F1189: Mmhm. Yes, it's a big difference, isn't //it? Aye, yes, [inhale], er, uh-huh.// F1190: //Oh huge, it's a huge difference.// //Yes.// F1189: //How d-, how did// you feel when you-you-you got off the boat? I mean you had memories obviously //of-of-of what it was like,// F1190: //Yes, that's right, um// F1189: but... F1190: I don't, I think I was m-mmore anxious of, you know, looking after Mum and having to //do all the things.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Um, we didn't stop off in London, we went up to stay with relations who were in //Keele University, so of course we were in the country.// F1189: //Mmm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And then for the first bit of being in Scotland we were living in Hamilton with a //friend.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: It wasn't until I went to work in //Glasgow,// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: and I don't know, I suppose we were suburban a lot of the time but I didn't, it-I-it wasn't as busy as it is now. F1189: Mm. //Mmhm, mmhm, mm.// F1190: //And there wasn't as much traffic, people didn't have the fuel, they didn't have the money, it was// lots of people that you knew just didn't have a //car.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I mean those housing schemes were built //without garages.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// mmhm. //That's right. Not enough roads.// F1190: //And it was just assumed, eh, that the-// //that's right.// F1189: //Yes. One road// in, one road out. //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, yes.// So it was all quite different //from now.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Um, I find the crowds in London absolutely oppressive //now,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and to be quite honest I've found Edinburgh oppressive in the middle of the //Festival.// F1189: //Festival,// //yes, mmhm.// F1190: //I realised// what [?]Alona[/?] always said to me, "Don't come in //the Festival, it's too busy."// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But I wanted to go to the concerts //you see.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And, you could hardly move in //Princes Street. [laugh]// F1189: //No, I know what you mean, and I,// I sometimes find myself thinking "You are just an old grump, //Linda Fleming",// F1190: //Yep.// F1189: cause I get //irritated, [laugh] at these people who are in my way, who are there// F1190: //Oh, yes, me too, yes, well that was// F1189: o-on holiday, //and, trying to have a nice time. [laugh]// F1190: //That's right, and they're loafing around, and mm, [laugh].// I was so used //to having Edinburgh// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: sort of barer than that, //that I just found it// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh,// //it doesn't look right, does it? Mmhm.// F1190: //uh, and of course I wasn't feeling// all that, well, //I couldn't move easily because of this blooming knee,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //that I had just torn the ligament, b-// and I //er.// F1189: //That was on your last// //trip back, yes, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yeah, that was this last trip.// And that made it really //quite...// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: cause Edinburgh's a place you want to walk //around.// F1189: //Yes,// mmhm, //mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //And I wasn't able to do it, so it was, it wasn't as good as usual.// F1189: Now how did, erm people behave towards you when you got back to S-, to Scotland? //Cause y-you still have// F1190: //It was as if,// F1189: quite a good Scottish accent, //but erm// F1190: //It was as if// the-, we'd never been //away.// F1189: //Really? Hm.// F1190: Um //and yet they...// F1189: //So you weren't treated like the// visiting colonials? F1190: Well, they called me the Kiwi, you see, //yes, [?]I've b-[/?], in a way they did think of me as// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: being... I discovered though, //erm,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: why they were being cautious //when I wrote, and they didn't// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: you know, they d-, couldn't guarantee me a job, [click], the previous //New Zealander// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: who'd been employed by Glasgow //Public Libraries// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: had said she'd stay six months F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and after six weeks she'd earned enough money and just went. F1189: Hm. //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //So they weren't very enthusiastic.// I-I reversed that, //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: instead of staying six weeks, I stayed //[?]six[/?] stayed longer.// F1189: //Stayed longer, [laugh].// //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //But that was the problem.// And I er, had an interview actually, with the city //Librarian.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And they I think it was going to take a couple of //weeks, to// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: to get it all through. //So Mum and I just went off on a trip, I said// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: we'll come back, you know, and sort that, I s-, I started work in October, //and I worked through till about May or June or something// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: like that, and then we had a bit of time in Scotland, before we set out //for Canada.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But I did enjoy it. F1189: Mmhm. And did you take some reading matter along with you? Or did you just count on being able to buy books //when you you got there?// F1190: //I think we didn't take// much with us, //I don't// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: remember - I think, p- we had far more luggage than we needed //when I think of it all, we had far// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: too much with us - that's the trouble with going by sea. F1189: Mm. F1190: Going by air concentrates the mind. F1189: It does. //Mmhm.// F1190: //It absolutely// concentrates the mind, but we had masses of //stuff.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: You know, maybe two or three uh big //suitcases.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And somebody else was moving them all the //time.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And you could put stuff in the //hold, and you had stuff in your cabin, and// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: no limits set. But I don't remember us taking books, but there were, there were l-libraries //on the boat,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and we did pick up, we could pick up books //when you were// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: g-getting around. //But we certain had s-, had reading stuff with us.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// I wondered if you, if you, er, y-you can recall reading anything on-on that journey back? //It's quite a momentous// F1190: //I don't...// F1189: journey, really. F1190: Yeah, I th-, I don't remember erm, I think probably part of the trouble was that for the first three //weeks of it// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: I wasn't reading anyway. I wasn't doing anything except taking my mother to the dining room and retiring to the cabin. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: [click] Just didn't want to look at //anything.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But I-I think we picked up some literature when we were in Colombo. //There were bookshops there,// F1189: //Mmm, mmhm.// F1190: and I remember picking up paperbacks //there but I don't remember what they were,// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: no idea. I don't funnily enough remember a library on the "Strathaird", though there probably was. F1189: Hm. F1190: I do remember it on the, um, "Oronsay", //as we came down the Pacific.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: There was quite a big //library// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: we, borrowing books all the time //there.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: There, eh, probably was probably was on //the "Strathaird", it's just that// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I don't remember that bit. I do remember writing a diary. Far full a diary than I ever wrote again. Um, I always start //them and then after the first fortnight forget them.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm. [laugh]// F1190: But [?]that's where[/?] I-I wrote //a diary, all the way// F1189: //Mmhm, uh-huh.// F1190: through, and I kept it up for the whole year I //was away.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: I think it's in the Turnbull Library now, probably. F1189: Where's that? F1190: That's in Wellington. F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: When I was finishing off //working...// F1189: //Oh, I'm very// glad you've put it somewhere, //that's-that's// F1190: //Oh, [laugh].// //Well,// F1189: //great.// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //when I was about to leave M-Melbourne,// um and somebody - //the spy system in libraries// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: is always pretty good - the Turnbull must have heard, because I was in charge of the National Library and the Turnbull was in there. And they rang me up //I think and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: said "What are you doing with your papers Mary?" And I said, "Well I was about to sort of clear them out." //And they said// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: "Yes, right-o. Just put them in a carton and send them all to //us."// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: So I [throat] had a lot of stuff, because I'd been teaching at the school, //and of course you had lecture notes,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and, but I did a lot of broadcasting before I left N-New Zealand too, so I put it out all together, and I thought, "Well they can have all the diaries //too", so I// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: just threw all them in. And then, on top of the carton I put a manila folder to //keep them from raining.// F1189: //Mmm, mmhm.// F1190: [click] And about - I suppose I sent that //off by freight, I don't remember.// F1189: //Hm, mmhm.// F1190: But about a month later th-they rang me again and said, "Mary, did you realise that when you sent over this carton of books, there was one of Peter's papers in that manila folder?" And I said, "Is there?" And I said "What is it?", and they said "Oh, he's written something about Count von Luckner." And I said, "Ah yes, I remember him //writing that."// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: And they said, "Have you got any others?!" //And I said "Yes,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I've got a stack a mile high." Cause he wrote these stuff and //he never cared// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: whether they were published or not, //just wrote them because he enjoyed it.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: "Well we'd like them please." So I spent the next few months really //typing up,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because they'd never have been able to read his writing - //er, hopeless, absolutely hopeless.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: There was one thing he wrote about the Dalmatian settlers in Auckland. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I could not work out what on earth these //abbreviations// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: were - and of course them I realised that Dalmatia had been part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, //and what he was talking about was the government in Austria,// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: and all these abbreviations had nothing to do with //us, or// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Dalmatia. So I did all that, and I enjoyed that, that was good, so //that stuff is all there too.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// [inhale] I'll - cause I'll bet you, er, any money it's in your journals what you read. F1190: I wouldn't be //surprised.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// //[laugh]// F1190: //[laugh]// //I don't remember.// F1189: //Now// how am I going to get my hands on them? //[laugh], Uh-huh. [laugh]// F1190: //Oh you just ask at the Turnbull Library - you need to go to Wellington! [laugh]// //You going to Wellington? You'll have to come back.// F1189: //I'll have to come back then! Yeah. [laugh]// F1190: I don't know //whether there's anything there or not, it's hard to say.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// Mmhm. F1190: [click] I couldn't //tell you.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: [laugh] //H-how funny it is, isn't it?// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Th-th-the things that it takes something to //spark the memory often, doesn't it?// F1189: //Mmhm, yes, now what-what// do you remember about that journey? Well you said going, taking your mother to the dining room and retiring. Is there anything else you recall //about it? Mm.// F1190: //I remember// that, um the captain //announced// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: quite early in the game that //there would be no organised games that// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: we could play on the deck whenever we liked but the weather wouldn't //be good enough.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Oh how right he was! //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: But I also remember there was a y-, eh, a woman from - //uh, w-, I made quite a lot of friends on that journey.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: A lot of very nice people got on er, em, sort of, as we went round the //Australian coast,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and there was one girl who had a small baby, who was five months old, that - I can remember the baby's name was Kim, I don't //remember// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: mother's name. But she was going home to take Kim to see //grandparents in Yorkshire.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So Kim and I spent many afternoons asleep //together on a deckchair -// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I I was babysitting, //you see - and mother went off to play games. [laugh]// F1189: //Aw, uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// Uh-huh. F1190: But it was, it was a //good voyage.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: Um they had very good entertainment, //musical,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: um, you know, sort of games and //parties and so on.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And there were two swimming pools, //there was one up// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: for - there was one fairly near us - two dining rooms, It was a one-class ship //on the way to Britain, and// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: a two-class ship coming //out.// F1189: //Now,// //isn't that interesting? [laugh]// F1190: //Isn't it? Isn't it?// //But was an [?]a-[/?] - so we had// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: the whole run of the whole //ship, and we were in the forward dining room,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: which I think was probably the //f- the f-first-class one// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and //I can remember// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: sitting in the top lounge //once when we had a storm, and [laugh]// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: somebody sitting on a couch suddenly migrated from one side of the thing to the //other.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: There's a thing - but my mother got on very well with the, with the //vice-captain, who// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: was the sort of entertainment captain. [click] And we got, very nice extra privileges down on the deck, //you didn't have to// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: go to the bar to get a nice orange juice, //or something, it was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: duly delivered to you by these attendant stewards that s-, [laugh], he somehow managed to get. F1189: How posh! //Uh-huh, [laugh], uh-huh.// F1190: //It was, it was really quite posh, it was good.// F1189: And you've said that, you liked it back in Scotland. //You would have liked to stay.// F1190: //Aw, I loved it, aw I loved it, yes I did.// //Yes.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: I th-, I j-, I've often wondered, I w-, I think I probably wouldn't have //stayed, because// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I had got leave from here, //without pay.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: And that was what Mr. Dunningham //had got when he'd decided not to return, so there was a// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I just felt, "If I don't go back, //nobody else'll ever get leave again."// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: And as it happened, [throat], the day after I left Dunedin, //to go on leave,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I was appointed Deputy City Librarian. And it did seem a bit //stupid,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: not to come //back.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: It took me a little while to settle back, I must //say,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: but //not really all that much, and// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: there was so much to do in the //library, and it was a new job and it was all interesting, that// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: I settled down, and probably, would never have been able to get the interesting //work// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: in Britain that I got here. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Cause the interesting jobs in Glasgow Public Libraries were still male. F1189: [click] Yes, y-you've said that, and I-I find that quite //interesting, but not// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: surprising. F1190: Yeah. F1189: Mm, //mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, it was -// er, em, the Mitchell was a male //preserve.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Mmhm. //So-so,// F1190: //It was, er,// F1189: do you think that-that kind of gender... um, difference was less marked here? //Erm, mmhm, hm.// F1190: //It was less marked here, but it was still there,// because people like Geoffrey Alley who was the Natio- - //the first National// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: Librarian, he was National Librarian for a long time - assumed, //absolutely assumed,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: that the training of librarians, was, had to be male there had to be a sufficient number //of males to occupy the senior positions.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //Mmhm, mmhm, hm.// F1190: //I mean that was what he thought, it was what he said.// It's not what's happened, //of course.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But he rather condescendingly said "Oh, girls just come to work //until they marry."// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Hm.// F1190: //Well for a// while it had to be because if they married they were thrown //out.// F1189: //Mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: But, of course that ceased, after the war that //didn't, that wasn't the case.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But, I-I can remember once having an argument with Geoffrey Alley about this and saying, "Well, if you //analysed what your male staff// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: have done, do they sit still in your library //forever?// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: No of course they don't, //they move on// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: to a promotion somewhere else." So you might as well have a woman going off to be married, as a man who goes off to be something //else.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But was true then. And I //would think// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: that, well, I know when I went //to the National Library// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I was the first female who was ever in the executive class of this, of the whole government //service.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm,// F1190: //You know, it's still a man's domain at the top.// F1189: mmhm. Now, you got those promotions then in-in the sixties, //here.// F1190: //I was,// I got, I was Deputy //Librarian// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: here on, in nineteen sixty, when I left, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I became City Librarian in //nineteen sixty-eight,// F1189: //Mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: and I went to be National Librarian in //nineteen seventy-six.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And then Peter and I were married in nineteen eighty-one, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and I went to Auckland then, and was the ci-, Auckland City Librarian from, for three years //there.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And that had been a male-dominated //society,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: more than here. //In// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Dunedin, the City Council people were in charge, people like the Town //Clerk.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: He made no difference at all between male and //female, erm,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: if you wanted to go into an, in to do your public //administration or business management stuff// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: you got encouraged to go. F1189: Mm. F1190: But it was, it was still rather //masculine-oriented in Well-, in Auckland.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, hm, mmhm.// Now why do you think that is? Can you account for tha-that //difference?// F1190: //I can't account for it// //because th-the// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: assumption has always been that Dunedin is more conservative than all the rest of them, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and I'm inclined to think that that's a piece of rubb- //nonsense - absolute nonsense.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: That here was this acceptance here that women were in //charge of things,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: perhaps it was the fact that //women had been// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: in charge of a major high school or //several major high schools// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: by that time. And, I don't know. //But,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: or it may simply have been the individuals who happened to be //around.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And often //that's what it is, it's not a// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: [?]general[/?] thing at all. F1189: Hm. F1190: I just I-I-n-din Wellington, I was - all of my... F1189: Mmhm. F1190: chief people were male. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But they didn't make any bones about it, it was the other staff who obviously //were surprised if you were// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: coming into a cabinet meeting and you were a female. Because I used to take my C-CEO over, and I sa- - in those days your CEO //wasn't the boss, the chap// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: at the top, he was in charge of th-usually your office staff. And I can remember the first time I went to a Cabinet committee meeting and the Cabinet secretary came up and said to Jim "Oh, oh you are the new se-, er, eh National Librarian." And Jim was very embarrassed and said, "No no, this is [laugh] the new National Librarian." And a complete look of utter shock. //So I just// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: said "You'll get used to it." F1189: [laugh] F1190: And after that //e- it wasn't so bad. But// F1189: //Hm, mmhm.// Hm. F1190: I don't think there was a single woman in that //Cabinet.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Mmhm. F1190: I'm sure there wasn't. //It was entirely male. You wouldn't find that now.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Well that was the mid- //seventies.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I had a very good minister, //he was great,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: couldn't have asked for better. But I think he was the one that said, "You realise that you're the first woman that's managed to get on to the //Executive Class in the public// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: service?" Well that was a l- - you know that was pretty slow, F1189: Mm. F1190: given the fact that there were women lawyers in departments and //things like that, and it'd never really been recognised.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm mmhm.// F1190: This, i-it was still functioning as if it were clerical. And all their //pay-scales, and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: their gradings, and everything else, reflected a great clerical //mass.// F1189: //Hm.// //Mmhm.// F1190: //And it didn't// make allowance for the fact that there were a whole lot of //specialists in the public service by that time.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: I think that's obvious now, w-, er, a-all the pay arrangements //are different anyway, half of// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: them are on contract, and F1189: Yes, //uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //it's not, it's not a salary anymore, you negotiate your price.// F1189: So you, really, I mean, and you had time in Australia too, during that time. //Uh-huh.// F1190: //I - well I,// I went to Australia after //Auckland,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: um, and I was there really in the ninet- - //oh no, oh we went over there in nineteen eighty-seven,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and I worked, I suppose for five //years, until I was sixty-five,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and then had another couple of years //after that// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: before I decided to come back. //And that time - Peter died, during that time -// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and, um my sister-in-law //had died here, so I decided it made sense to come back to Dunedin, so I did.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// So you've been in a few places then, and that mu-, that must have kind of affected what you you liked to read. //You started off your,// F1190: //[throat]// F1189: your reading career, //if you like, with a very British sensibility.// F1190: //Well that's - but that's// //it's perfectly, uh, well,// F1189: //How has that changed, Mary?// F1190: I-I think //one of the things// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I got conscious of when I went to //Australia// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: was just how little I //knew about Australian literature,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because it just didn't, I mean //you had obvious// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: people that came across, but //there weren't very many of them.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And I got, er sort of interested //in that.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So tha-that made a huge //difference.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But one of the things I did no-, er notice was the difference in libraries //over there.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I lived in Mount Waverley, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: which had a population of roughly the same as Dunedin at that time which was a hundred and ten //thousand,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and it had nothing, that even faintly looked like a central library. //Nothing.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: It had a series of little libraries that were //branch libraries.// F1189: //Mmhm. Now which// state is that in? //Victoria.// F1190: //Victoria.// F1189: Yeah, mm, oh, it's, course, yes. //Near Melbourne.// F1190: //And there was just n- -// //no, there was just nothing that was an in-depth library - if I hadn't had the university library// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I would've had nothing //to read, because you couldn't// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: follow any subject through, th-. //Lots of interesting, popular stuff, the latest sort of popular stuff.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But I'd been used to //this concept of - the British sort of concept of the central library.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And it d- really didn't exist - and I decided it was because of the state //libraries.// F1189: //Mm,// //mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //They were the great public libraries.// But, you know it was twenty minutes - uh, well it was twenty kilometres to the state library from where //I lived,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and for lots of people it would much //more.// F1189: //More.// F1190: And you couldn't borrow from //the state library, it was a reference// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: library, so there was no sense of-of, being able to follow a topic //through.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: If you didn't have access to, I mean, Monash University Library was very good indeed, and it was not a problem. But for the general //public,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: there would be nothing like //the expectation that they would have of us here.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// Mmhm, yes. F1190: See you noticed //all these sort of differences.// F1189: //So this - mm, mmhm.// F1190: I've tried to think where I used to get my books when I was in the National Library. I certainly didn't borrow National Library books because we didn't //lend them.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I must've gone to the public library and bo-, em, //and looked there.// F1189: //Mmhm, hm.// //Wha-// F1190: //[inaudible].// F1189: what were you reading then, tell me, in the seventies? //Can you remember? Mmhm.// F1190: //In the seventies, I don't know what I// can remember particularly. But I certainly read a lot, because //uh, I,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I had made up my mind that I wasn't doing this business of taking a satchel of papers home at night, //that if I couldn't manage my work during the day there was something// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: wrong with me, so that in fact I was reading, um and it's really hard to remember, you know, wh-what I would be reading at that stage. But I think, probably, I was reading quite a bit of New Zealand stuff, F1189: Hm. F1190: because for about two or three years I was on the Wattie Awards judgemen-, //erm judging// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: things. And of course that meant you were reading, er you know, great wads of stuff. But even before that, I think I'd got much more into reading. There were far more New Zealand novelists coming //up, of course.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Um, Janet Frame was at the, sort of, height of her powers, but there were other people, and I got to know people like Vincent O'Sullivan, who was at //was at// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Victoria, and he was a f-friend of Peter's. Erm and of course Peter was bringing books home and he had a different range of interests, er we would've, he would've, course, he was crazy about er, Evelyn Waugh, and //Grahame Greene, and so on.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So I-I-I read probably //more of those.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But I do think the biggest change there was, I began to read a lot more New Zealand literature, //because there was// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: much more of it coming //out.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But it - not so much local history, because this was the place where local history //seemed to flourish.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: It's flourishing elsewhere more now, //but Otago's// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: always been a great //writer-up// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: of itself. F1189: And wha-what were those awards that you //mentioned? Mmhm.// F1190: //Ah, it's er, it was -// still exists. //There's a// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: book award every year. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Erm now Wattie's no longer f-f- //fund it.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Forgotten what it's called now. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But they, in those //days,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you were handed a mass of New Zealand //literature which the// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: publishers //had put in,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: put in as-as possible candidates, and you had to make judgements on I think, a third was book //production,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a third was subject matter, a third was style - that sort of, //that sort of// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: division. And fiction, and poetry and natural history //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: history were all mixed up together. It was, th-, you know, not an easy sort of //job to do, but you were// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: r-reading a whole mass of //stuff,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: all across the board. And I must've done that once at Wellington, and then certainly in //Auckland.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And it was that stage that Janet Frame had written her first of her autobiographies, "To The Is-Land". F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And i-it was quite interesting, I didn't know the other two members of the committee up there, and one was Warwick Roger, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: who edited a magazine //called Metro,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and he's still about doing that, and the other, not going to remember his name, but he was a publisher. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And it was quite clear when they came into my office that they had made up their mind //who was going to// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: win this, and it was equally clear that they didn't think I'd understand. And they said "We think we've made up our minds, Mary", and I said "Well so have I - should we write them down on a piece of //paper?"// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And it was all the same. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// //And who was it?// F1190: //And it was Janet Frame's,// F1189: Yeah, //right, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //and, there was no doubt about it, I mean,// //she just...// F1189: //Is she, is sh-,// er, what do you feel about her writing then? F1190: I, er, mixed - //I think some of// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: her novels are marvellous, //absolutely marvellous,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and others are almost impenetrable. F1189: Yes, they're not acce-, not very accessible, are they, //I'm told? Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Not, not at all, and// for a long time she was a very withdrawn person. //She came to live in Dunedin in the end,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: she came from this area, //she was born// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: in Oamaru. But she she melted a bit after that, and then, Michael //King, who// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: who-whose work I've read all //through for,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: long time, Michael did her au-, her //biography,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and he s- he was always a very //uh reasonable person, and he made it// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: clear to erm, to her that he would not be making judgements about things that she //didn't want revealed.// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: If she didn't want them //revealed, he would respect that.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And he did. He really did, and I think that he did a huge amount to bring her out F1189: Mmhm. F1190: of her shell. She died of cancer, and then Michael after the success of //the book, his publishers// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: gave him a weekend with his wife in a posh resort, F1189: Hm. F1190: and while driving to it, he drove into a tree, F1189: Mm. F1190: and the whole thing exploded, and that was the end of him. Always just seems so //unfair.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: H-he was a great bloke, um and he's written some interesting histories. The other thing of course I was probably also reading New Zealand history because that was what Peter was into, you see, he taught he-, history at Auckland //University.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So Keith Sinclair and Bill Oliver and all these //historians were part of the...drifting// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: of the drifting //around of the people that I met.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: Alistair Campbell, who's a poet. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I'd known him vaguely when he was here, but //I got to know him better.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: So there was a whole new range of //people, that came// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: came in. F1189: Was tha-that reading of New Zealand fiction then at the expense of of, o-other authors that you-you'd been //fond of earlier? Mmhm.// F1190: //Not, not consciously,// I think you just sort of move from //one to the other.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And sometimes, y-y-you just read a bit //more.// F1189: //Mmhm,// mmhm, mmhm. F1190: I don't remember consciously not reading things that //I'd been used to, you know, if eh,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: say Margery Allingham b-, //published a new one, she was probably, was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: finished by that time - but you know that //kind of thing,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: that, and somebody like Eric Newby, I think I discovered while I was up there. Er, //so,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: you know, I've got everything //practically, that he's written,// F1189: //Mmhm, [laugh],// //[inhale] Now, do you,// F1190: //in there, because I think he's so funny.// F1189: do you bring back, books back from //Scotland, when you're, when [laugh] you come back?// F1190: //Huh. Ah, yes, [laugh], yes I do.// //Yes, yes - a "Penguin History of Scotland" came out, [laugh] aw, [laugh].// F1189: //Do you, do you get into trouble at the-the airport for havin-, [laugh],// //[laugh], uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Quite often I post things back, I really do.// But I can still remember - it must have been the early //seventies, I must've// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: read "A Short Book on the Hindu Kush" //by Eric Newby,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and I thought it was one of the //funniest// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and, at, that year I decided to come back via Tashkent, //Samarkand and Bokara, and that was one of the other, funniest stories.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I was I was City Librarian by then, and I must've been going to an IFLA meeting, and - anyway The Russian Embassy gave us a present //of Russian novels,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and they sent two of their //Russian [?]emirate[/?],// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: [?]library[/?] people down, to the library, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: to present them - so I gave them afternoon //tea,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and chatted away with the //cultural// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: ambassador, and the other man sat. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Absolutely wouldn't len-, didn't say anything, so I thought, "Och, got to get him out of this." //So I said "What// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: do you do in the Embassy?" And the //minute I// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: asked him, I thought, "It isn't the sort of thing you should ask a Russian." //And he said, he said,// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: "I am the travel man." F1189: Mmhm. F1190: So I said "Great, cause I want to go to S-, Bokara and Samarkand." F1189: Mmhm. F1190: "Right", he said, reached into his inside //pocket, and// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: produced an air timetable, //that told me, just that,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: nothing else. I felt as though my, [laugh] office had been //bugged.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: So I eventually went that way, //and, sort of// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: came back. Well, as I flew out of Tashkent to go to Delhi - we were going Tashkent to Kabul, //er, oh...// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Afghanistan was //still okay -// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: down to Delhi. And there were a bunch of, of German //students// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: all round me in the plane. And one of them said to me "Do you know what those mountains are?", and I said "They're the Hindu Kush!" //Nearly in tears, cause here I was on top of the Hindu,// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: well they were just about as excited. //So we swapped seats, all the way across, the, the whole lot of us managed to see the Hindu Kush,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, hmm, mmhm,// //mmhm. [laugh]// F1190: //because I felt this was just extra special. [laugh]// F1189: So-so travel writing then, //obviously, is something you// F1190: //That's right.// Yes, //yes, yeah, and I read a lot about India.// F1189: //eh really engaged in - uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: I'd gone to er, I'd g-glimpsed //India with Mum in Bombay, and we'd both liked it hugely.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// F1190: And then, I went back in seventy-one, when I was heading for Britain, //and had a week// F1189: //Mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: in Delhi, and then a week up in //Kathmandu.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And that year I went to the International Federation of Library Associations meeting in //Liverpool.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And I met up with Jaggi Matar, //who later// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: became the director of public //libraries in Delhi.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So every time I've been to India //of course// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I've seen Jaggi, so I've been to India a lot, //because ah,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: he and Vimal, his //wife were// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: very, became very dear //friends.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: So I did see Jaggi, as I came back f-, //this// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: year, and Vimal died two weeks before I got there. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: So it was really quite sad. And Jaggi is looking very fragile and has had, just had his ninety-first //birthday.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But that was part of my attachment to India. F1189: Mmhm. //Oh, um.// F1190: //And Jaggi// finally enchanted me by saying that he thought that we must've met in a previous incarnation. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: But I did read a lot of stuff, and I'd always, you know, when I look back I had always read a lot about India. F1189: Mmhm, and what about all the-the-the post-colonial, erm //literature tha-that's come out// F1190: //Y-, er, yes.// F1189: in the last //twenty years or so, what do you, what do you think about that?// F1190: //Oh, y-y-, oh yes, there's a lot of stuff.// Uh, um and some of it absolutely //fascinating.// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: You know, "A Suitable Boy", //for instance - and I was absolutely fascinated// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh mmhm.// F1190: because I was invited to Jaggi's //granddaughter's wedding.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I couldn't go, but in the course of Jaggi's letter to me, and he said, that, it was an //arranged marriage,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: cause she'd asked for this, and "we..." What did he say? We took some time to find a suitable boy." F1189: [laugh] F1190: And he used this //phrase, exactly.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh,// uh-huh, //yes.// F1190: //So I-I,// they - when I was over there //last year,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: they showed me all the, the films. I was really quite glad I hadn't gone, I couldn't have kept up that sartorial elegance //at all.// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: All these women in beautiful //clothes, but the men in beautiful clothes too.// F1189: //Yes, uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// Now I saw in the local paper here actually, there was a, //a a Hindu wedding in Dunedin, first one ever.// F1190: //Eh, an Indian, yes, yes, first one.// //That's right. Well this is the sort of wedding that Sonal had,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: but it was in Bombay, F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: because that's where h-, the //groom's family came from.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And this was all, eh, //arranged, uh, I// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: imagine that they're all the same level of //business deals, and so on,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because, Sonal's father //is// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: in construction. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And I don't think he's got //bricks in his hand.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// //Ah, right, uh-huh, and// F1190: //[laugh]// F1189: now, tha-that article I was talking about was in the Otago //Daily Times, which I// F1190: //Daily Times, yes.// F1189: see you //got a copy of.// F1190: //That was,// yes. F1189: Uh-huh, so that's your daily //newspaper then? [throat], oh.// F1190: //That's my daily newspaper, yes, yeah.// It's the only one //now.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: There used to be //two, there was// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: an evening paper, the Evening Star, and the //Otago Daily// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Times. But like so many //evening papers, it's just gone.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: [cough] And it //publishes// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a freebie, about once a //week, with local, a lot of local stuff in it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// Now, the Otago Daily Times, just to get a bit of perspective, you know, without being too colonial, colonialist, about it, it's a kind of, er Glasgow Herald, really. //Mm.// F1190: //Yes it is,// //and it's got more so.// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: They had a-an editor F1189: Mmhm. F1190: who was extremely good F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and brought a lot of //international stuff into it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Well we get, erm, a supplement, eh, //on Mondays, with international news on -// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: he instituted that, but the general standard of the paper was much more... you got more news from //around New Zealand.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: The chap who ap-, they appointed //as editor// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: had been the editor of all their - they they run a whole lot of //little newspapers round the province, this company -// F1189: //Hm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and, that's what he's brought. F1189: Mmhm, //mmhm.// F1190: //So it's// now turned into a very localised //paper.// F1189: //Yes.// I-I noti-, it is //quite// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: local. //Mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Very local, and I think a lot of people are, eh,// there's a lot of people in, in //Dunedin buy// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the Press //which is available// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: from almost //all over the town,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: which was a Christchurch //paper.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And I noticed down in in //Queenstown// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: think the New Zealand Herald was //there - that's the Auckland one.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Er //So-.// F1189: //There's// quite an array of newspapers though here. //Uh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Oh, yes, but,// most of them are - //th-this is the only one, the Otago Daily Times// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: is the only one that's not internationally owned. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: It is a family firm, and its owner lives next //door - in that posh house in there [laugh] through the hedge. [laugh]// F1189: //Right, uh-huh, oh right. [laugh]// //We are// F1190: //I-// F1189: in a select //neighbourhood, then, [?]aren't you?[/?], [laugh], uh-huh.// F1190: //Aw, yeah, there's no doubt I would s-, and he's one of Dunedin's few millionaires.// //Except that the owner of this house is clearly a millionaire.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: But, you know, he's not //local, I don't know what he is.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But he's i-, //he's interesting too, he's a book collector.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And he collects books from the seventeenth //century, England.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And I g-, once said to him something about the light //you know,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you had to p-, I got to have good light to be able to see things, and he said "That's not what books are for Mary - they're for sitting in the dark, feeling them." //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: That's not my way of books! [laugh] //But that's his, so he does,// F1189: //[laugh] Uh-huh.// F1190: he does printing though, //there's a printing press// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: down in the summer house down there, so. F1189: Good, //uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //It's all very fascinating, hm.// F1189: So, em what about a Sunday paper then? What do you do for that? F1190: I don't do //anything, but lots of people do. There's// F1189: //Mmhm, hmm.// F1190: the Sunday, there are two Sunday papers, //and I think they both come out of Auckland.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But there's one that's much better than the //other, the one's a bit of a gossip rag.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Um don't ask me //which is which, because I don't// F1189: //Er, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: know, I don't get them. F1189: Right. F1190: Partly because //I want to read other things.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But I'm - the trouble is that I-I'm addicted to things like Sudoku, and //crosswords and things.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And I sometimes think I read the Otago Daily Times for the puzzles page F1189: Mmhm. //[click] Right,// F1190: //rather than anything else.// //[laugh]// F1189: //uh-huh, well that's fair enough,// //isn't it?// F1190: //Well, why not?// F1189: And you're still using the library. //Hm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Oh yes, all the time, oh yes, yes.// F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Pile of books //over there that come from the library.// F1189: //Now is there a// is there a a a library more local to you here, or //do you have to go into the Central one?// F1190: //The mobile library comes in// down, just below the //bus stops, but in fact I go into town,// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because it, it's what, ten minutes //in the bus.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Erm I don't think that they will ever build a library out here, but what's badly //needed is a// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: library over in South Dunedin, which is //just, sort of, straight through there. Very thick population, quite p-poor population,// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, [throat], mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: old, //older,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: which needs one, and the-they've been trying to get money //for this// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: and rather hoping that the stadium would go fly a kite, but the stadium has //not f-f-// F1189: //This is th-the// new stadium that's proposed for, //for Dunedin, a sports stadium.// F1190: //Well yes, they've been dickering around,// //they've spent thirty-five million doing preparations for it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And as somebody said, that could've built the South //Dunedin Library.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //It's very controversial,// F1190: //[inaudible].// //Very. Very.// F1189: //isn't it? Mmhm.// F1190: And they're clearly, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: it's sort of provisional even //now,// F1189: //Hmm.// F1190: but they're not willing to give it up. F1189: Mmhm. //Yes, mmhm.// F1190: //[click] I've always// felt they're wasting their time, //fighting it.// F1189: //Mmhm.// It doesn't seem to be very [laugh] popular anyway. //Now,// F1190: //No, no it's not.// F1189: you said earlier on, you still do feel Scottish. //[throat]// F1190: //Yes,// yes, //[?]I do[/?].// F1189: //Do you feel// New Zealand as well, //or a, or a New Zealander?// F1190: //Yes I do, yes, yes I do,// //yes I do.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Mmhm.// F1190: //Erm// the only time I'm utterly certain that I'm Scottish //is when// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the b-, the All Blacks are playing Scotland. F1189: [laugh] //[laugh]// F1190: //I know who's going to win, but I keep hoping that they won't! [laugh]// F1189: Now that's the real acid test, //isn't it?// F1190: //Isn't it?// //Absolutely acid test.// F1189: //[laugh]// //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //And you know that the chances of// Scotland beating the All Blacks is just about zero. F1189: Not high, no. F1190: But I don't care. //[laugh]// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm. [laugh]// F1190: I wo-, eh, I wouldn't mind if they, if they //beat the All Blacks.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// Do you still read Scottish newspapers, Mary, ever //at all? Mm.// F1190: //No, I don't.// //Um,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I read them when I'm at home, //when I'm in Scotland.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Mmhm. F1190: But F1189: Do they still carry them in the library here? F1190: Do you know, I don't even know the answer to //that?// F1189: //Oh.// //Mmhm.// F1190: //Um// they used to. //In fact they carried several, but// F1189: //Mmm, mmhm.// F1190: er, it's quite possible that they //do, I j-, I just don't know the answer.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: For a long time after //we came,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: my mother read them, and I suppose I //did too.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But it wears off. F1189: Hm. F1190: You stop, you stop doing it. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And you-you read books about Scotland, and you //read articles, and, the Scots Magazine.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Erm er, particularly it, because it's a good little magazine. //There was another// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: there was another Scottish magazine that, Scottish Field. F1189: Yes, uh-huh. //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Lots of people here get Scottish Field.// And, yo-yo- //you were more likely to read that than the newspapers after a while.// F1189: //Mmhm uh-huh, mmhm.// //Mmhm.// F1190: //I know we// stopped, I think Mum stopped even, after perhaps four or five //years. She did read them all through the war,// F1189: //Mmm mmhm.// F1190: because of course she was //sort of concerned about people, and what was happening.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// Cause what do you think about th-the sort of Scottish organisations, then? Th-the-th-the //the Burns// F1190: //Here?// F1189: clubs, and the Caledonian //Societies and, uh-huh.// F1190: //Well we never joined.// We never //joined, but -// F1189: //Do you think// they're a good thing or, or F1190: Well they're fading //away.// F1189: //not?// Mm. //Mmhm.// F1190: //The Gae-, even the Gaelic// Society, which really dealt seriously //with the language and the music,// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// F1190: um, that's gone. The Burns Club, I would think that the average age is probably //seventy-five.// F1189: //Hm.// F1190: Even Scottish country dancing, which we did do //because we wanted the dancing and the music,// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: has diminished, though the club I went to //last night// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: there were thirty people //there.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And thoroughly enjoying //themselves, I mean they really// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: do, they enjoy it. And, we've suddenly got the Professor of Music from the University of //Otago has joined.// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: And //you know he -// F1189: //My goodness!// //[laugh] Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //yes! And his wife comes, so,// you know, that's er, and that started, because F1189: Mmhm. F1190: the Hocken library //had its centennial, and they wanted a ball at Larnach Castle.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And they said, "What do you think of that, Mary?" //And I said// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: "I'm not coming unless there's some Scottish country //dancing."// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: Now one of the girls at, //Megan, at the Hocken staff,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: her mother teaches //Scottish country dancing.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: So Janet went down and //taught them an// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: Eightsome Reel, and a Gay Gordons //and a bit of that.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: So we did it up at Larnach //Castle, there was no space, [laugh],// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: but we did it. And we enjoyed ourselves. And we've probably got about six or eight people that have come, //since then,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: because they enjoyed it too. //And Janet's a very good teacher, so, eh - she's New Zealander, but// F1189: //Cause it's fun. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: she's great. F1189: Now that's interesting, a New Zealander, F1190: Yes. F1189: teaching //the Scots, how// F1190: //My dear,// F1189: to do the Scottish //country dancing. Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //a lot of the people that come to the summer schools come here// from Japan. //And the biggest growing place for Scottish// F1189: //Yes, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: country dancing these days is Japan. And they're taught by //Japanese - and they were in St Andrews.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I think the class I was in in St Andrews, //which I must say I had to go out of after a day,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I doubt if there were more than a third of //them Scots.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: There were French, //Japanese, and the pianist was Japanese.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// Extraordinary. //It's an// F1190: //Isn't it?// F1189: export industry //then,// F1190: //It's an// export //industry.// F1189: //rather than// a domestic one, //I might say, because,// F1190: //I think so.// Ah, well exactly. F1189: probably not as popular F1190: No. It, the same //thing's happening in Scotland as here.// F1189: //in Scotland. Mmhm.// Mmhm. //Yes, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //It's the ceilidh dancing in Scotland that's t-, that's -// F1189: That's right, //uh-huh.// F1190: //I think the// RSCDS are probably too full of rules. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// Right, you've been very, very good, erm, you've spoken for a long //time,// F1190: //[throat]// F1189: and I know that's tiring. Um, so could I just ask you some very, em F1190: Yes, yes. [throat] F1189: tightly-knit questions about particular authors, //that have a// F1190: //Uh-huh.// F1189: Scottish spin on them? F1190: Right. F1189: Em, and then I'll ask you one final question and we'll, call it a day. Now, have you ever read any of the following. The poetry of Robert Burns? F1190: I could recite some //to you if you like. [laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// //Go ahead! [laugh]// F1190: //[laugh]// //"When chapman billies leave the street, and// F1189: //[laugh], [exhale]// //"...and drouthy neebors, neebors meet"// F1190: //drouthy neebors, neebors meet."// //[inhale], [laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: "...we sit bousing at the nappy, an' getting fou and unco happy." Yes, lots of //lots of Burns.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// //And are you still// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: reading that? //Hm, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, yes.// In fact I go back every now //and then.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And, er, you know after //Liam had done his, recitation// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: I went back and re-read it //because I enjoyed it so much.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// //This i-, this was at the opening of a-a Burns exhibition, uh-huh.// F1190: //But I do th-, yes, it was, er, yes.// I do think that, l- F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I do think it improves with reading out loud. F1189: Yes, oh yes, you have to hear it //really, uh-huh, [inhale], em. Mmhm.// F1190: //You have to hear it, because on print it doesn't look so good.// F1189: Do you think that is especially so if you're if you're far away? Do you think the distance makes any difference? No? F1190: No, I don't think so, I think //that's true about all poetry.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm,// //mmhm.// F1190: //I can// remember, you know we've got a //very good Whitman collection in that library.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And I couldn't think //why// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: anybody read it, and then we had an American who //came to the department,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and he did a session on Whitman, //and suddenly// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you heard it. F1189: Yes, uh-huh. //Uh-huh.// F1190: //And it was a different thing.// F1189: Now a question I never asked you, I'll just sneak it in here, was whether or not you ever listen to the World Service? //The BBC.// F1190: //No.// //No.// F1189: //No?// Mmhm. F1190: No, it's, //i-it's-it,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: i-if you want to listen to the BBC here, it's two in the morning. F1189: Is it? [laugh] F1190: [smack] Never enthusiastic //enough.// F1189: //Yes,// //that, that uh-huh.// F1190: //A lot of people do though.// F1189: Uh-huh, tha-that time difference //is em, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, yes.// F1189: Mmhm. F1190: So, //you know,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: some of the best programmes that appear on //television started about// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: one or twelve. F1189: Mmhm, //mmhm.// F1190: //And I'm// I'm not an enthusiastic television watcher //anyway.// F1189: //No, uh-huh.// //So you don't watch// F1190: //But I di-// F1189: Coronation Street, //then?// F1190: //No I'm afraid I// //don't. I cannot take Coronation Street, and// F1189: //[laugh]// //Uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: //when I was in Australia I couldn't watch EastEnders either.// //But Peter did. Don't think he watched Coronation Street but he// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: certainly watched EastEnders. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Probably watched more //television then because he was a// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: television addict. //[inaudible].// F1189: //Well I used to// watch Neighbours. //Mm, er when my children were small.// F1190: //Oh, I've never watched Neighbours. [laugh]// //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// //Erm, uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, well that's something I've never watched either, but I'm not good at watching.// Oh we've got a //ship coming, slowing up the harbour.// F1189: //Yeah, me neither, I'm not a big, er...// F1190: Mm. F1189: Anyway, the next one is Walter Scott, and I'll be interested to //to know what you think about him.// F1190: //Oh, yes, I've read, I've// I think I've probably read //most of them.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I loved, when I was, when I was a //kid, I loved "Ivanhoe", and// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I think //th-the sort of adventure ones, you know the historical ones.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Um, mm but I'd-I'd read a lot of them, //"Redgauntlet",// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: hm, just, anything that came //around, and I've// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: got, most of them //there.// F1189: //Mmhm. [inhale]// Did you like them? F1190: Yes I did. //But I always skip// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: the introduction. F1189: Uh-huh, uh-huh. F1190: I became //expert at skipping.// F1189: //He's a bit long-winded.// //Mmm.// F1190: //Very long-winded.// And even Mr //McEwan,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: you know, who was the first librarian, he //kept, you know, he always made sure you had the best editions of all the b-// F1189: //Hm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: uh but he said, "Eve-, er, Walter Scott rather sits on the shelf." //[laugh]// F1189: //Mmhm. [laugh]// //[laugh] [inhale] Mmhm, mmhm, hm.// F1190: //But you see, b-, erm, the stuff I've been cataloguing up at Queenstown.// Complete set of the Waverley //novels, and// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: worn, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: not sitting //fresh, untouched.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //Oh, they've been read then, yes, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Every single one of them. They've been read, and read, and read.// //"Peveril of the Peak",// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: all of those ones, not //even the the most obvious ones.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// Mmhm. F1190: So it's interesting, //they were,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: certainly they did have their vogue. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But I l-, I enjoyed them but I //did learn// F1189: //Uh-huh.// F1190: to skim F1189: Mmhm. F1190: the sort of wordiness of //lots of them.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// Now, er, when would they have been read a-at that library you're cataloguing in, //in Queenstown?// F1190: //I would think,// anytime between eighteen-seventy, and when it disbanded. F1189: Mmm. F1190: And probably nobody much was up in that area, certainly after the //nineteen-twenties.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Right, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //I don't know when the eh, Upper [?]Shotover[/?] Library faded, I can't// even find out for sure //where it was.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But, it would be later than the first of the gold rushes, which were eighteen-sixty, so I think they were //importing that// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: stuff late sixties, //through the seventies, into the eighties.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And it stuck around in most libraries until the twenties and thirties, when they began to get, well either they disbanded, //at least that one was, just shut up in a place and it's sitting in banana// F1189: //Mm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: boxes now. Erm but that would be the period, //probably, but// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: some of them look as though they've never been opened. //But the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: not one of the Walter //Scotts.// F1189: //Scotts.// //Certainly, uh-huh, [throat], mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //And there was some Stevenson, there were Robert Louis Stevenson titles that I'd never// heard of, and I've got a lot of //Stevenson.// F1189: //Mmhm, [click]// well my next one is Robert //Louis Stevenson, and specifically// F1190: //Aw, I loved him.// F1189: "A Child's Garden of //Verses" - but you al-,// F1190: //Wh-what?// F1189: er, I already know tha-that, //that's a great love of yours, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Uh-huh, yes, I was a-addicted to that, but then I// I-I-I //you know, his "Island Nights Entertainment", and...// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I went to Samoa to //go in search of Robert Louis// F1189: //Mmhm, click// //Oh? W-wow.// F1190: //Stevenson, cause it's, [?]well[/?], if,// F1189: easier for you to do that //mind you! [laugh]// F1190: //Well that's true, em// Judith and I //had found this deal that,// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: um //Air New Zealand was running, and we could// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: go up to Samoa //and have// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: a week in Aggie Grey's Hotel, which is the great traditional //traders' hotel,// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: for a thousand dollars. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: There and back //and five days.// F1189: //Right, mmhm.// F1190: We had a great week. //Ah.// F1189: //And did you// do much, sort of Stevenson //heritage stuff when you were there?// F1190: //Well we went right up to the place.// //The thing that upset// F1189: //Uh-huh. [throat]// F1190: me when we were up there, they took us around and they keep, //kept calling him// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Robert. F1189: Ah. F1190: So I said, "Look, sorry, but he was never called Robert! I think you should stop calling him Robert." //"Well that's his Christian name." And I said,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: "He was not, //ever// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: called Robert." F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But they weren't //listening.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Aw. They ought to have.// F1190: //But we did go right through the place.// //Yes, they ought to have, yes.// F1189: //[laugh] Mmhm, yeah.// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //But he was, he was a fascinating man,// he got involved with local //politics, and all sorts of things.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// Mmhm. F1190: Yes I've read a lot //about him, and I like, er,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I think his stuff is lovely. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Not just //the, er,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the popular //ones, but his prose is// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: beautiful. F1189: An-and would you Stevenson was as popular amongst New Zealanders //as well, do y- - no?// F1190: //No, no.// Though the stuff //was there, you see, there was// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Stevenson stuff up there. Um I'll just let you glimpse my F1189: Mmhm. F1190: collection of stuff through there. Erm but he's not as obvious - well of course that stuff that I was seeing //must have been very early, because he wasn't// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: really writing as early //as the eighteen sixties, seventies.// F1189: //Hm, hmmhm.// F1190: Um s-so the, you know, the, it was a it was a bi- a bit early for //him.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Mmhm. F1190: But he was certainly somebody that I I got interested in after the period of reading things like "Treasure Island" //and the exciting ones.// F1189: //Mmhm, right, [inhale]// so you brought that with you, //really, uh-huh, from Scotland, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes, yes, yes and I've bought a lot since.// You know, often from second-hand //bookshops, just// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: picked up the Stevenson stuff. F1189: Mm, [inhale] F1190: Well, you really find him more enjoyable to read //than Scott, of course, because he's not so// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, yes.// //[laugh]// F1190: //he's a smoother. [laugh]// F1189: An-and those books you've picked up in second-hand shops, has that been here? //In - yes, right, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes, yes, yes, yes.// F1189: Ah. F1190: Yes, that's //mostly here.// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: Cause er, the stuff I pick up when I'm away, I tend to pass on to somebody //else, it's often new stuff, you know, I might// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: be going through one of the bookshops, //and pick up something and read it, and// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: drop it in on my next stop, //and pick up [?]what's[/?] there,// F1189: //Mmhm.// Mmhm. F1190: which is what we we do a lot //of.// F1189: //So you're// sending books on a //journey. [throat] Hm.// F1190: //Yes, yes, yes, travelling round.// Yes. F1189: Er, the next one is-is-is Lewis Grassic Gibbon, that's coming in into the twentieth //century.// F1190: //Oh that's right.// I've, I //I remember// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: reading them when I was //working at the library.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I haven't for a long time. And funnily enough, the University of the Third Age, which is a great //in-institution here,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: they did a series which unfortunately //I didn't,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: I couldn't get //into, they were// F1189: //Er...// F1190: always [?]overbooking[/?] - but on his area, F1189: Mmhm. F1190: and that whole period, and somebody said //to me, er, "Have you ever heard of Lewis Grassic Gibbon?"// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And I said, "Well we used to have a very good //collection in the library."// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And I read them then. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: And they had never heard of him. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But he's definitely been //taught here.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: And er, //this was to this age group.// F1189: //Right, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: There must have been somebody in the English //department that specialised, but// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: they said it was absolutely marvellous. //Everybody loved it.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And that would be about four, five years //ago.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //So he's been introduced to here,// and I think a lot of people went into the library //and borrowed the books afterwards.// F1189: //Mmhm, right.// Uh-huh. And so-so when did you come in, yourself, come in //contact?// F1190: //Oh I would// think probably in the fifties, //sixties?// F1189: //Right,// //[?]I thought so[/?], mmhm, mmhm mmhm.// F1190: //Quite early, a long time ago.// Perhaps even when I was doing English at the //University,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: which would have been in the late forties. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: But it was certainly quite a //long time ago.// F1189: //Uh-huh, yes.// F1190: Yes. F1189: Neil Munro. F1190: Oh yes! //Read most of what I could see of Neil Munro.// F1189: //[laugh]// //[laugh]// F1190: //He did come out of the// //library.// F1189: //You're reading// that upside- //down, aren't you? [laugh]// F1190: //Yes, I can read it upside-down, yes, yes.// F1189: Well we'll skip John Buchan cause you-you, //you've told me you read a bit about him.// F1190: //Yes, I've told you about John Buchan, yes.// F1189: But, erm, an-and the next one, going into sort of really popular stuff is A. J. Cronin. F1190: I didn't //like him, but that was one of the things my// F1189: //[throat], Mmhm.// F1190: mother read. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: She read //all the Cronin stuff, but I wasn't keen on him.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Oh I'm not sure why, //but// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: he just, //he just wasn't my// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: my cup of tea. F1189: Uh-huh. Em, I-I read them, er, //because they were there in the,// F1190: //Did you?// //Well they were there.// F1189: //the library shelf.// //S-, erm.// F1190: //Yes, yes.// F1189: Er, and I did quite enjoy them //actually,// F1190: //Oh, uh,// //yes, he is [inaudible].// F1189: //but, I mean, a lot of them// were about English towns, and what //not, and so maybe// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: not. Maybe you //didn't connect with them, mmhm.// F1190: //They, well, I can remember, I used to bring them// home for Mum, but I //just - I don't think I ever read them myself.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// //Mmhm.// F1190: //But she,// she enjoyed them. F1189: Even though he is a-a Scottish //author, you know? Em.// F1190: //Yes, yes.// F1189: Er, Neil Gunn. F1190: Yeah, I r-, I //read, er, some of him, but that's a long time ago now too.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Probably thirty //years since I read Neil Gunn.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// Mmhm, but did you read that here, //Mary? You did, right, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes, aw yes, it would be here, yes.// F1189: Muriel Spark? F1190: Aw love it, yes. //W-, every s-, every single thing she's -// F1189: //I'm so pleased you said that cause she's my favourite.// //[laugh]// F1190: //I think that a lot of them are up there.// F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: Everything she's //ever read.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //I re-, always had to get a hold of Muriel, I think// she's great. F1189: Uh-huh. F1190: Yes. //She's one,// F1189: //Oh good.// F1190: she's one of //my favourites of them all.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// Uh-huh. //I'm always// F1190: //Mm.// F1189: a wee bit dispirited when I ask people, eh about Muriel Spark, and they say "Oh I c- I can't be bothered with her." //[laugh]// F1190: //Oh, no, I think she's just terrific, yes, yes.// F1189: Erm, Shena Mackay. F1190: Don't know. F1189: Don't know that one. //Mmhm.// F1190: //No.// F1189: Well there's a n- a name for you to conjure with //with, a// F1190: //No.// F1189: similar, o-one is Kate Atkinson. //[?]Have you s-[/?]. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //I've encountered Kate Atkinson, yes, in fact I think// I might have one of her books //home at the moment, yes.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: But they are, they j- - and they're new. //They're,// F1189: //They// F1190: they're n-writing now. F1189: Uh-huh. //Yes,// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: she's writing now, //uh-huh.// F1190: //Right.// F1189: Em, er, and, the very popular authors, some of them you've mentioned, like Ian Rankin, //[throat]// F1190: //Yes.// F1189: ah, there's another, er, Scottish, her books are not based in Scotland, well not usually, em, called V-Val McDermid, //who writes detective// F1190: //No.// F1189: and thrillers. //No.// F1190: //N-no.// F1189: Quite gory ones, //actually.// F1190: //[laugh]// //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// //[laugh] Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //But they all are these days.// //You know, they dissect// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: everybody. //[laugh]// F1189: //Uh-huh, and how do you feel// about that, th-the sort of, eh ghastly gruesomeness //of a lot of// F1190: //I think it's// put me off. F1189: modern thriller //writing?// F1190: //There are// various people //that I used// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: to read and I suddenly found that I didn't want to. //Patricia Cornwall was a sort of// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: example. //And I suddenly thought, "I don't really want to read about all that any more."// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mm.// F1190: Erm the sort of //violence,// F1189: //Mm.// F1190: bits, what did I retreat into? I read something. Aha, he's he's an, actually he's an Englishman who writes and l-, //wrote in France, and// F1189: //Mm, mmhm.// F1190: he obviously lived in //France, what's his// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: what's his name? And they dug some of //them up from the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: basement in the library and put them out. And I read one, and I thought "Isn't that a rest?" F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Because it wasn't full of violence. //I mean,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: the murders were there, but they were //off stage, as it were.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And you didn't have this sense of-of er meaningless //violence,// F1189: //Mmm.// F1190: that I think is, can be so awful //in some modern ones.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// Mmhm. //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //And that d-does put me off.// F1189: Em Margaret Thomson Davis? //These are em, mmhm.// F1190: //No, I don't know Margaret Thomson Davis.// //No.// F1189: //Eh, these are// kind of, em historical, //er, novels, th-th-th her s-,// F1190: //Yeah. Oh, right.// F1189: usually set in Glasgow, I think. Em, they're very popular. //Em// F1190: //Yeah,// who - the person I //had// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: read was oh, no, what's her name? //She writes about// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: Clydebank. //"Finding Peggy".// F1189: //[inhale]// Oh, Meg Henderson. //Yes, uh-huh.// F1190: //Meg Henderson.// F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I've got everything she, //she's written.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// You like //those? Yes, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes I do, yes.// F1189: I-I've only read "Finding Peggy", //I haven-, I haven't read any of the others.// F1190: //Yes, well there was// F1189: Mmhm. F1190: one about the bombing of //Clydebank.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: That wasn't "Finding Peggy", was it? Maybe it was. But the d-, the, th-the damage //and the disappearance of people, that we'd never heard about. It was just incredible.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And there's, was it "The Last Voyage"? There was one about a a a fishing trawler. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: That's //wonderful, that was great.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: I've handed my //copy to everybody I can// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// //And they're// F1190: //find.// F1189: really quite Scottish, er, those //books, uh-huh, uh-huh, yes.// F1190: //Yes, oh yes, yes.// //Yes I think she's great.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Oh, well, there you go. George MacDonald Fraser, uh, //the last// F1190: //Oh! [snort]// //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// //[laugh]// F1190: //"The General Danced At Dawn".// F1189: Yes. //[laugh]// F1190: //Oh I thought that was one of the funniest books.// //And the people that gave me that, was// F1189: //Uh-huh, mmhm.// F1190: after a Scottish //Country Dance// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: School here in Dunedin, which I'd //organised,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: and a whole mass of //Australians came.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: Well they came to visit me - I'd lived in the //city at the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: time, and they brought me George MacDonald //Fraser as a present. [snort]// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh,// //uh-huh.// F1190: //And I// don't think I've ever laughed as much //at any single novel. [laugh]// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh, yeah.// I mean, I-I th- do quite like the Flashman books. //I know they're, they're// F1190: //Mm.// F1189: sort of, boy's own //stories, but [?]in fact[/?], uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //Yes, but they're still very funny, aren't they?// //Yes, yes,// F1189: //They are funny, mmhm.// //He-he// F1190: //yes.// F1189: died last year, //George MacDonald Fraser.// F1190: //Oh did he?// //Oh you know, I think I noticed that, that he had died. I think he got a notice in the papers here.// F1189: //Bit sad, uh-huh, uh-huh, yes, mmhm.// //Did he? Ah, that's interesting, mm.// F1190: //Yeah, yes, y- - I think it must have been here that I read it.// //Yes, I'm sure it was after I came back.// F1189: //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// Mmhm. Now, you've mentioned most of the publications that I've got listed here. Erm, but some of the sort of more popular ones, if you know what I //mean, are things like the// F1190: //Eh right.// F1189: The Sunday Post. F1190: No. F1189: Now, [throat] I wondered if The Sunday Post made it over to Dunedin. F1190: Don't remember //ever seeing it.// F1189: //Mmhm.// //No? Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //It would certainly never have been in the library.// //And eh, not that// F1189: //[inhale]// //No, I mean, it's a// F1190: //I've noticed.// F1189: very popular paper, //it's er, erm// F1190: //Er, no,// I don't think so, I don't remember //ever seeing it here.// F1189: //Mmhm,// i-it carries the comic strips, you know, //the - "Oor Wullie",// F1190: //Right.// //Aw, "Oor Wullie".// F1189: //and "The Broons".// //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //You can buy "Oor Wullie" in the Scottish shop in Dunedin.// //Mm, have you?// F1189: //Yes I've seen it!// //[laugh]// F1190: //[laugh]// //I thought you might.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// //Uh-huh.// F1190: //Actually,// that shop is really, it's got some //very good records, I've just// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: picked up Jean Redpath, //Robert// F1189: //Mmhm.// //I noticed// F1190: //Burns stuff.// F1189: that it had a lot of music //in it, mmhm.// F1190: //Yes.// //Well,// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: th-there's, I've got, managed //to get two out,// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: two out of the three, and she had gone to get //the other one for me.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Uh-huh. F1190: I've not really bought records for //quite a while, cause I've got too many.// F1189: //Mmhm, mm.// F1190: But I suddenly saw these Jean Redpath, and they're //lovely.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Mmhm. F1190: And they're really very nice, those people in there, //they're very willing to do anything for you.// F1189: //Mmhm, mm, mmhm.// F1190: And, um I think they do very well out of //the cruise ships too, yes, yes.// F1189: //Uh-huh, they probably do, uh-huh.// Now, the-the famous Irish tenor has not come back to me yet. //Uh.// F1190: //George, em -// John McCormack. F1189: There you go. [laugh] //Just seeing you, [?]right[/?], [laugh] - now// F1190: //Jus-just came up with it.// F1189: I've made you happy now, //[laugh]// F1190: //Yes, there you are, it's John McCormack.// //Yes that was one of m-my father's, uh,// F1189: //[?]So[/?], eh// //uh-huh, uh-huh, mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //but Peter loved him, he thought he, Peter had a very true ear.// And he reckoned he //was one of the// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: great tenors. F1189: Mmhm. //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: //So that - well I've,// it's a, it's not all that long ago, it's not just my childhood, //George McCormack - in fact, I've probably got some,// F1189: //[laugh]// //Uh-huh, uh-huh.// F1190: //got sto-stuff in there.// //Yeah.// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Right, one last question. This is a hard one though. F1190: Oh is it? F1189: Could you, and given all your experience, sum up for me what books have meant to you? F1190: Oh, I would think that they would just've been absolutely fundamental. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: I just can't imagine, I just can't imagine life //without them.// F1189: //Mmhm,// mmhm. F1190: Fundamental's the word I would think. And after we came to New Zealand, I suspect that they were, er, very //fundamental indeed, that if I// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: hadn't had them I might have been, v-v- really very miserable. F1189: Mmm. F1190: And I think we probably were all like that, the three of us, //my mother// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: too. But, er, Jim and I just had our noses in books all the //time.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But I, well I was probably a bit more passionate even than Jim, he sort of grew away //from it a bit.// F1189: //Mmhm.// F1190: But he still read widely. But I just c-, I just cannot imagine, I can remember being in Russia, having taken a book with me, and of course you had to be very //wary about what// F1189: //Hmm.// F1190: you took into Russia at the time, and I finished it, and I suddenly discovered that there I was with nothing to read. That was terrible, even in a place where there were all sorts of things to see. //I wanted something to read.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// F1190: And all that there was [laugh] was this terrible Russia propaganda in English! //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// F1190: Wasn't good enough. F1189: Mmhm. F1190: Would you like to come and see my - if you're //finished with this.// F1189: //I would.// I think we'll-we'll- //we'll call it a day there, cause// F1190: //eh, right.// F1189: you've been marvellous. Can I thank you very, //very much indeed. It-it's been an absolute// F1190: //Aw, it's been a pleasure, Linda.// //I really enjoyed it.// F1189: //pleasure for me.// This work is protected by copyright. All rights reserved. The SCOTS Project and the University of Glasgow do not necessarily endorse, support or recommend the views expressed in this document. Information about document and author: Audio Audio audience For gender: Mixed Audience size: N/A Audio awareness & spontaneity Speaker awareness: N/A Degree of spontaneity: N/A Audio footage information Year of recording: 2009 Recording person id: 1189 Size (min): 97 Size (mb): 471 Audio setting Recording venue: Interviewee's home Geographic location of speech: Dunedin Audio relationship between recorder/interviewer and speakers Speakers knew each other: N/A Audio transcription information Transcriber id: 1221 Year of transcription: 2010 Year material recorded: 2009 Word count: 21283 Audio type Interview: Participant Participant details Participant id: 1189 Gender: Female Decade of birth: 1950 Educational attainment: University Age left school: 16 Occupation: Research Assistant Place of birth: Ayr Region of birth: S Ayr Birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Country of birth: Scotland Place of residence: Glasgow Region of residence: Glasgow Residence CSD dialect area: Gsw Country of residence: Scotland Father's occupation: Journeyman joiner Father's place of birth: Ayr Father's region of birth: S Ayr Father's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Father's country of birth: Scotland Mother's occupation: Domestic Mother's place of birth: Ayr Mother's region of birth: S Ayr Mother's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Mother's country of birth: Scotland Participant Participant details Participant id: 1190