SCOTS Project - www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk

Document : 349
Title    : Interview 03: Dundee woman on her childhood
Author(s): N/A

Copyright holder(s): Mrs Cerwyss O'Hare
                     SCOTS Project

Audio transcription


F631: So, I'm going to take you away back.
F634: mmhm
F631: erm, can you think about what your earliest memory is?
//[inaudible]//
F634: //mmhm// //Yes.//
F631: //[inaudible]// [inaudible]
F634: Yes, my earliest memory would be, [tut] I was born in nineteen
forty-four. So my earliest memory would probably be about nineteen
forty-seven or eight, when I was four year old. And ehm, I had gone to the
ponds to get some fish. And I had a jam jar with some string round it, and
I had a fishing net, and I had about fifteen little minnows in the water,
and I was really, really happy. So I brought it back, and I was climbing up
the stairs to go into the house to show off my catch, and the, a girl, who
lived above me, who sadly was Down's syndrome and and was a wee bit
aggressive, came up the stairs, grabbed the jar, swung it as hard as she
could, smashed it against the wall, and all the fish were in a big puddle
on the steps, squirming about. And the, just the noise of the glass
crashing,
F631: mmhm
F634: and then all these little minnows squirming in the pond was just too
much for me, and I evidently ran off, you know, yellin my head off. And eh,
I don't know what happened to her, but then, you know she she couldn't
really help it. //She was just,//
F631: //mmhm//
F634: she wasn't, she wasn't right. eh, Sheila her name was. And that's
that's one of my earliest memories.
F631: mmhm
F634: erm //of, that was in//
F631: //Was that when you lived in Cragie Street?//
F634: Cragie Street. er in the tenement. erm a room and a kitchen. Five of
us in that house. Well there was six, but then my dad died. Five of us in
that house. My mum, two brothers and a sister and myself, and I was the
youngest. And eh, the toilet was on the stair. There was no electricity,
until just before we left that, we had gas, gas lamps. erm and we left
Cragie Street in, well I was seven, so that would have been nineteen
fifty-one. We left Cragie Street in just, it was just before that that they
got electric lighting in these houses. The outside was lit by gas lamp, you
know, the outside lights
F631: mmhm
F634: in the street, and, on the stairs. The man, the lamp-lighter came at
night and put the lights on, and came in the morning and put them off.
F631: mmhm
F634: There was an actual lamp-lighter. And ehm, he came with a great big
long pole, that he would, cause the the gas lamps were really high up to
keep them away from the kids. So he came up with a great big long pole, and
I I don't know how he did it, but he just seemed to stick the pole into the
glass and eh the light either went on or it went off.
F631: mmhm
F634: erm [laugh] //I've never yet discovered//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: what that pole was all about.
F631: Yeah.
F634: But ehm, that was what he did. So, it was a [cough], it was a a
colourful place //to live,//
F631: //mm//
F634: in many ways! [laugh] [laugh] And er
F631: Ho- how old were you were you, how old were you when your dad died?
F634: I was just er comin up for two, when my dad died. He had some, some
injuries in the War and when he came home from the War, he was most unwell
and he developed tuberculosis. And there was no cure for tuberculosis in
these days. So, he was put into hospital and, when it became clear that he
was goin to die, my mum took him out of the hospital, we were all sent out
of the house, because it was so contagious, tuberculosis,
F631: uh-huh
F634: so we were put away from the house, you know, ferried out to
different people to look after us, and my mum looked after him. And then,
he died and the five of us stayed on in the house until, as I say, nineteen
fifty-one. And then we were sent out to what, to me [inhale] was the
country and was a bungalow. And the council had started to decant people
from the central, centre of the city, out to the housing schemes.
F631: mmhm
F634: ehm, which virtually were built in the country, certainly for us
townies, erm we were surrounded by fields. ehm in the housing estate that
we were sent to.
F631: Is that //the prefab?//
F634: //So,// //No,//
F631: //No.//
F634: that was in Fintry.
F631: Right. //Yeah.//
F634: //in Fintry.// erm, and there was three bedrooms, there was a bath,
which was a huge luxury, there was a bath, and a toilet, and, of course,
the biggest luxury was that it was indoors. You know, we didn't have to go
out to the toilet. erm, and we had a proper kitchen, and a living-room, and
a front and back door, and a garden, eh, and that was in- incredible for
for, I mean, I only had a short experience of my life in a tenement, but
for people who were born and bred and brought up in tenements all their
lives, to move out to a council house in the country, erm with all these
facilities, was just amazing. But, one of the problems with that was, the
council were not very long-sighted, because they put people out there, but
there was no infrastructure built. The roads weren't completed, so there
was no transport could come out there. There was no shops. So, it meant
that people had to walk into town. Now it wasn't that far, it wasn't that
far. But, it did mean a hike into town for shopping. Then, they started
through time to have some vans come out, you know; a baker van would come
out, and a butcher van, and a fish van. But, of course, they were
expensive, er because they, you know, they had their overheads for their
vehicles. [inhale] So most people trekked into the town. And then
gradually, gradually shops were built, as the schemes developed and got
bigger, cause we were in the first street that was ever built in Fintry. It
was called Fintry Gardens. And that was the first street of this, what is
now a huge housing estate. erm but when the, as I say, when the first
street was built, there was there was there was no, I mean there was
actually no, the road wasn't built, the houses were built,
F631: mmhm
F634: and they were complete, but there was no road. You know, so it was a
kind of a muddy track up to the houses. Sounds incredible, because it's all
laid out now and everything's, you know, ever- you know, all the roads are
complete and there's a huge infrastructure now; there's schools and shops
and, you know, clinics and all those kind of thing there now, but there
wasn't in these days. But anyway, nevertheless, I thought I had died and
gone to heaven, because it was just
F631: [cough]
F634: incredible. In fact, I kept runnin, evidently, I don't remember this,
but evidently I kept runnin through the house. It was such a novelty to go
in one door, run through the house, and out the other door. erm it was a
huge, a huge novelty. And then, like every other novelty, it just became,
you know, it just wore off and it was just your house and that was fine.
But em [click]
F631: And, //did you go//
F634: //Yeah.//
F631: were you at school age?
F634: Yeah well, [laugh] there's another story wi that, my my mum [sniff]
eh I had gone to the school, Glebelands, which was near to Cragie Street,
erm, and so, when I moved out to the housing scheme, my mother, I think the
next day, my mother took me to the window and pointed to the wee school
that was in the field, eh a few fields away, there was a wee school in the
field. And she said to me, "See that that building there?" And I said,
"Yeah", she said, "That's the school you're going to tomorrow." And, of
course, I did my usual, you know, "I don't wanna go to that school,
because, you know, I've got all my f-, my friends are at Glebelands; I
don't wanna go there." 'oh well you've no choice, that's where you're
going'. And eh, the next day, she took me down to the corner of the street
and two girls; eh, one was called Ruth Gold and one was called Dorothy
Wright, I remember them so clearly. And she said to them, "You goin down to
that school?" And they said "yes", and said, "Well take her with you."
That's true. Now they would be maybe a year older than me, //you know, they
were//
F631: //mm//
F634: bigger than me. ehm, but they took me to the school and they took me
in to the headmaster and said, "This is the new girl, she's starting here
today." So he said, you know, "what's your name?" Gave him my name and he
said, "Go along to room four." And I just had to walk along the corridor
and go into room four, and the teacher there said eh, "Just come in." She'd
looked at the register, she was obviously expecting me, looked at the
register and said, "Just sit down there." And my my worry was that, on the
blackboard, they were doin joined-up writing. Joined-up writing! [laugh]
//[inhale] and j-//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: And, she said to to the class, "now I want you to copy this passage
into your jotter," and she handed me a split new jotter, and a split new
pencil and and I said, "oh, I'm sorry, but I don't do that kind of
writing." //[laugh]//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: And she said, "Well you do now. That's the kind of writing we do
here." So having gone from just, you know, I don't know what you call the
not-join-, the un-joined-up writing,
F631: [?]scripture?[/?]
F634: To the to the [laugh] joined-up writing was what I m- it shifted from
that, in a matter of a morning.
F631: mm
F634: And eh, and then, came home and was showin off that I could now write
in in big people's writing.
F631: mm
F634: You know big people, that was the way big people wrote, so, that was
my, that was my jotter and I was very pleased with that; I was worried to
begin with, but, you know, I was very pleased with that. And I loved that
school. I actually loved that school; it was called Linlathen Primary. And
erm one of my teachers, ah was a lady called Eleanor Leith, that we, of
course, called Miss Leith.
F631: mm
F634: And eh, but she told us her name was Eleanor. And erm she - I was a
bit of a mischief - but she seemed to like me. And, one day, I would, I had
a sore tooth, and because, I mean, we didn't have a dentist or anything.
God, I don't think I had a toothbrush in these days, never mind a dentist.
But anyway, she said, "What's wrong with you?" eh, because I'd maybe been
mumpin and sulkin, cause I was in pain with this tooth. And I told her I
had a sore tooth and she says, "Well, get your mummy to take you to the
dentist." And eh, and I said, "oh well, my mum doesn't have time to do
that, you see, because, you know, I mean we don't know where the dentist
is", and all this nonsense. So she said, "Well, I tell you what," she said,
"I'll take you to a dentist." And eh, at four o'clock, I got to sit in her
car. That was a huge excitement. I got to sit in her car, and she took me
to this dentist down in Stobswell. We went in, we went up the stairs; it
was up a stair. We went up the stair, it was a bit scary, because I'd never
been in a dentist, and all the instruments were there and everything. But
the great thing was, on his, on the radio, which was in his, the surgery
bit, he had Scottish music playing. And all the time the music was playing,
he was singing along to it. You know, I mean it was //amazing.//
F631: //mm//
F634: And eh, he sat me in the chair and gave me a swirl round, let us
swirl around a wee bit; he knew I was frightened. And Miss Leith just
popped her head in and then popped her head out again. And he did whatever
he did to the tooth; I don't know whether he p- I don't even know whether
he pulled it out or whether he filled it. That I can't remember. But he he
looked after the the tooth anyway. And he s- he gave me a little, a little
round tin of toothpaste, and a tiny little brush. He just gave it to me to
take home. //And he said//
F631: //[cough]//
F634: cause he said, "Do you do you brush your teeth often?" and I said,
"No."
F631: Did you not have a tooth- //brush?//
F634: //I didn't// have a toothbrush or toothpaste. So, he gave me the
toothpaste and the toothbrush and he said, "now, when you go home, you need
to brush your teeth in the morning before you go to school and at night
before you go to bed." And he said, "you have very good teeth, but you want
to keep them, keep them good. Do you eat many sweeties?" and I said, "No,"
because we didn't we didn't get sweeties.
F631: uh-huh
F634: erm, but, for some reason, one of my tooth had gone a bit ba-, my
teeth had gone a bit bad. So, that was that, and it was the next day at
school when when Miss Leith ran me back,
F631: mm
F634: to to where I lived. erm by that time now, we were in a prefab. And
eh, so she ran me back to my, to the house, or or to the street where I
lived anyway, and I jumped out the car, and eh, she said to me, "Did you
notice the name on the dentist's? Did you notice the name on the plaque
outside?" And I said, "No." I never even noticed the plaque never mind the
name. And eh, she said, "well the name says Gordon S. Leith, eh Dental
Surgeon. And Gordon S. Leith is my father." And er I says, "[inhale] your
father's a dentist." And she said, "Yes", she said, "so". Now I went to
that dentist for years after that.
F631: mmhm
F634: You know, went every six months, or whatever it was, you know, for
your check-ups, and eh and kept up, you know, with the dentist for many
many years after that. Until I went to Mr Butt, //You know, that//
F631: //Yeah.//
F634: that you've, that you //went to//
F631: //That's// the first dentist I can remember.
F634: mmhm Mr. Leith died, cause I mean he was a good he was a good age
when, you know, he was quite elderly.
F631: mmhm
F634: When I went with eh that night with Miss Leith. erm, so he was a good
age, and he died and then I didn't have a dentist for a wee while. And then
I started going to Mr Butt. And then he was the life-long dentist after
that, looked after you folk's teeth as well.
F631: mm
F634: But erm yeah I loved that school. //It was a great school.//
F631: //[inaudible]// //[inaudible]//
F634: //s-, yeah,// yeah, she was a really really nice person Miss Leith.
And she was really, she used to give us all a Christmas present. Everybody
got a Chri-, the whole class got a Christmas present. It was just a small
thing, you know, maybe a penny dainty or something like that, but the great
thing was that you got called out of the your desk, you got you got called
out of your seat, to come and get it.
F631: mmhm
F634: You felt so important, you know, and she always kept me till last. I
was always last, cause I, I was, alphabetically, I was last. We'd nobody
behind me, alphabetically, cause I was T for Tait.
F631: mm
F634: And eh and and I was always last. And the anticipation, cause it was
always in a little brown, a little brown paper bag,
F631: mmhm
F634: so you didn't know, what what you were gonna get, and everyone got
something a wee bitty different. And eh, oh! The anticipation of that was
amazing. And then you would go out and she would say something like, "Well
I hope you have a very nice Christmas, and em w- take care on the roads and
we'll see you after the after the holiday," you know, she always said
that.
F631: mmhm
F634: Every year. We had her for two, three years, I think. erm, so she she
sticks in my memory as far as teachers are concerned, cause she was so
kind. And she was really kind as well to all the naughty ones, you know
how, you know, includin myself, erm you had these naughty people. And she
she was the one as well em when, she'd said, I was misbehaving one day and
she said to me, "em right. Get out". She says, I can't remember did now,
she say, "Outside!" No, yeah, she said, "Out!" And I didn't mean, I didn't
know whether she meant 'out' the class or 'out' the school. //[laugh]//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: Out of Dundee, or out of everything! So I thought "well, if you stand
outside the door, and the headmaster comes along, you get into trouble,
cause he knows you've been put out for being naughty." So I thought, "Well,
the only thing to do is go home."
F631: [laugh]
F634: And I went right out the school,
F631: [laugh]
F634: And the thing was, I knew that that if I got home, wh- once I got
home, there would be nobody in. I I would be stuck, because my mum was
working, Olive was at school, My brother was home on leave from the army,
but I wasnae very sure about that, whether he would be home. Anyway, it was
a winter's day, a dark day, and, when I came up to near the prefab, I could
see the light on in the bathroom. So I, phew, I knew he was in. So I went
in, and he said to me, "Why are you home? You should be at school." And
ehm, and I, first of all, said I was sick and I wasn't feelin well, I was
feelin sick. So that was first of all, I thought I'd try that tack. And he
said to me - this is Neil - and he said to me, "You don't look sick." And I
[?]said, "I've[/?] got a really sore tummy." And, eventually, it came out
that I'd been put out, cause I was wantin to ask him whether she meant
'out' forever, or just 'out'. //[laugh]//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: So he said, "Well if you've been naughty, I think you've probably
been told to get out, of the classroom, not out of the whole school, and
certainly not out of education, //[laugh] the education system," [laugh]//
F631: //[inaudible] [laugh]//
F634: So, he said, "now you know know what you've to do?" and I said, "No."
He says, "Well you've to go right back after lunch time, and you've to
stand at her desk, and when the school bell rings, you line up, then you go
to her, you go to the school, get into the classroom, go to her desk and
say, 'Miss Leith I'm really sorry for misbehaving this morning, and I won't
do it again.'" And [laugh] and I said, "Well no see I can't do that,
because everybody'll laugh." And he says, "Well that's why you've to do it.
That's why you've got to say you're really sorry and you won't do it
again." And I was going back down the road saying, "I'm not doin that. I'm
not doing that. I'm just going to sit in the classroom and I'm not saying
anything, I'm just gonna go in, go to my desk and sit down." And eh, I went
into the classroom. And I don't know why I did this, I don't know why I did
it to this day, but, I sort of sidled up to the desk, and she was trying
not to look at me, she could see me out the corner of her eye, but she was
trying not to look at me. Eventually she turned round and she said, "Yes?"
And I said what Neil said for me to say, with great difficulty, but but I
said it. And she just said one word, "Sit!" And [laugh] so I just turned
from the desk and sat. But then I was happy, because I thought phew I'm
back in again. You know, I wasnae quite sure how things were gonna go, if I
was 'out forever',
F631: mmhm
F634: You know, how was I gonna learn things, or or when could I play in
the playground, if I wasn't at the school, [laugh] you know, so I was happy
to be back in that school system //again.//
F631: //You// were quite known for that kind of thing though weren't you,
because there was the time in nursery, as well, when you just sort of went
AWOL,
F634: mmhm
F631: Can you tell us about that?
F634: mmhm
F631: [laugh]
F634: Well, it was actually AWOL from school, because
F631: oh //school.//
F634: //you see I was// brought up in the nursery,
F631: mmhm
F634: And I was in the nursery when I was months old, cause my mum had to
go to work. And there was all these council nurseries, where babies were
taken in. Because it was just after the War and, erm you know, things were
very very different. And erm, anyway, I was brought up in Ellengowan
nursery. Every day I went there. And I was virtually just taken home at
night and put to bed. So the nursery was my home. The nursery was my, was
really like my home. And, when I went to school, I I went to school the
first day, Went, you know, was taken in, registered and everything, and at
play-time, when we came out to play, I just walked out the school and
walked back to the nursery, which was within walkin distance of the
school.
F631: mmhm
F634: I just went right back to the nursery, because I thought, "Well it's
time to go home now. I've had enough of that." And then I had evidently
appeared at a window. They had very low windows in this nursery school; the
windows were deliberately low, you know, the the windows actually came down
quite low, so that the the nurses could see out,
F631: mmhm
F634: if the children were playin out. But I had looked in the window of
the matron of the the nursery-school and she was sittin at her desk
writing, and she looked up and she said, evidently, she said to my mum, all
she could see was this head of blonde curls lookin in the, in the window
and thinkin, "oh God! She's back!" //[laugh]//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: "She's gone, oh God, we've got her back." So she she beckoned to me
to come in. So when I went into her room, she said to me, "What are you
doing here?" And I said, "Well I just came back, because I've been to
school now and it was okay, but that's it." And she said, "No no. You don't
come back here Audrey. You have to stay at school. You're at school now.
You don't come to nursery school." And sh- the, she phoned the school and
said, "You'll have to send her sister along for her." Now Olive was in a
few primaries above me,
F631: mm
F634: "You'll have to send her sister for her." So Olive came for me,
dragging [laugh] me along the road, cause she was fed up, she'd been taken
out of a class that she was really enjoying, maybe Art or something.
[laugh] And she had to come and collect me. So she took me back. Now after
that, I think I was the start of them locking gates and things in
//schools.//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: Cause they didna lock the gate. I just walked out of the gate. erm,
and I never actually did go back to the nursery school. But, erm I was
really sad.
F631: mmhm
F634: You know, because it it really was my my life the nursery school. It
was my home for for all these years. And the nurses were like mums really,
you know. The nurses, the nursery nurses were all, because you were taken
there, like, my mum started in the mills at, she would probably start at
half seven, quarter to eight, so I'd be taken there at the back of seven,
just after seven. And then I wouldn't be picked up until half five, quarter
to six at night. And then, of course, you know, my mum would be tired, so I
would be taken home and bathed, or, or maybe not even bathed, just taken
home and put to bed really.
F631: mmhm
F634: erm, so that's why it was important that the nursery, that's why the
nursery school was so important to me. erm
F631: And what was your granny doing? Was she also working in the mills?
F634: mmhm
F631: When you were that age?
F634: mmhm, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you see there was nobody to look after you,
because everybody, you know, my mum's sisters and brothers were all in the
mill. And they all did a, they all did a a different job. And my my mum was
a spool-winder. erm, which just is exactly what it says, she wound the the
flax onto the spools.
F631: uh-huh
F634: And erm, there was a tha- one of my other aunts was a weaver and
there was a finisher and there was a flattener and a, there was a sparker
and oh there was all the different trades.
F631: mmhm
F634: Of of em the jute industry, and they all worked in different parts of
it, you know. My mum said, at one stage, there was a member of the family
in every s- every sector of the mill. Right at the beginning and then,
because the the flax goes through different processes, you know, it arrives
off the ships from Pak- or, you know, it arrived off the ships from
Pakistan, and then it went through various processes. And, my mum reckoned
that, at one stage, you know, the family had all grown up, and at one
stage, there was one of them in each in each area of the mill. erm
F631: How many siblings did nanna have [inaudible]?
F634: Well she was the oldest of thirteen. //She had//
F631: //Right.//
F634: she had she had twelve brothers and sisters.
F631: mm
F634: eh I th- I I think there was six girls, and seven boys.
F631: mmhm
F634: Six girls and seven boys. Twins eh ehm, Joseph and James; they died
in infancy; they were about four months old, evidently, when they died. But
that was common long ago, sadly. erm, because that was before inoculations
and that's when things were, people with that size of a family erm,
certainly couldn't afford to nourish them all, you know, they weren't, they
wouldn't be all well-nourished, I wouldn't have thought. And they lived a
very hard life, em, in a very very small house, in the centre of the town,
near the docks. ehm, and my mum, bein the oldest, had all the work, had a
lot of work to do, you know, besides her besides her job, she'd a lot of
ehm work to do in the house with the children. And ehm, it it doesna sound
like a great life //at all.//
F631: //[inaudible]//
F634: It wasn't a good life.
F631: What about your mum's dad, was he
F634: My, my //my mum's dad//
F631: //I can't remember [inaudible]//
F634: Yeah, he was called Joseph, and he was erm, he was a bit of a dead
loss really, as my mum would put it, er, because he drank very heavily. And
he worked, he worked on the docks. He worked he was a pl- what they call a
plater. And that was a skill that that eh was to do with ship-building.
Plating was to do with, you know, puttin the outside pieces on the, on the
actual ship. And, so that's what my grandfather did, but, very often he was
never at his work, cause he couldn't lift his head off the pillow, if he
was really drunk. But my granny used to be able to go down and get his
wages. //Yeah.//
F631: //Right.//
F634: She would go to the docks. And they knew what my grandfather was
like. And they knew that she had this huge family. And she used to get his
wages, just picked up his wages, he didn't touch his wages.
F631: mmhm
F634: erm, and, but she said he always got money somewhere for drink. She's
never never yet really knew where he got //it from.//
F631: //mm//
F634: But he always managed to get the money for drink.
F631: mmhm
F634: So she had a very hard life, extremely hard life, and yet she was
very tough. erm, very resilient. I mean, she was in her eighties and she
was still helpin, you know, washin nappies for her various, you know,
grandchildren and whatever else. So she was really a bit of a character.
F631: That's the one that thought I was a boy, wasn't it?
F634: Yes, yes, she couldnae get round your name, Cerwyss. She couldn't eh,
she, I mean Cerwyss, that was eh, she'd never heard of it, of course, but
then, I mean, it sounded really like a boy, so //she//
F631: //mmhm//
F634: couldnae, couldnae cope with that at all. But erm yeah, I think they
had a, a really really hard time. And when my mum was expecting me, this
just gives you an idea of the sort of, the culture of the time. When my mum
was expecting me, her m- her mum, who was my gran, had gone to the
pictures; they'd gone to see a film. And they were sitting in the pictures
and my mum, you know, the, her due date was a few weeks away so, but she
started to feel really uncomfortable in the pictures and she'd said to my
gran, "I'm not really not feeling too good." So my gran said, "oh well."
She listened to her saying that for a wee while and eventually she said,
"oh come on, we'll walk up the road." So they started to walk up the road,
and walking up the road was becoming more and more uncomfortable for my
mum. It wasn't that far, but it was up a hill and she was and she really
was uncomfortable. Anyway, eh they got up to eh, the circle, round about
where my granny lived, cause they were goin back to my granny's and her, my
mum's brothers, several of my mum's brothers were hangin about on the
corner, as they did in these days. So my granny says, "You better go down
for the midwife." And my my my mum had evidently said, "oh I don't think
I'm needin a midwife," she said, "I think I've still got a bit to go yet."
But she said, "I'm really uncomfortable," and my granny said to Thomas, "Go
and get the midwife." So Thomas took to his heels, and ran down though
mid-Cragie, to find the midwife. By which time, now I, we had got, well, my
mum and my gran had got home, and my mum, my gran said to my mum, "Now
you'd better go through and lie down", cause she had been lookin a bit
white and poorly, so she went through to lie down and eh I came into the
world. And my gran said, the midwife arrived, and my gran had just said,
"Too late," you know "She's, the baby's born." So ehm my my gran virtually
brought me into the world.
F631: mmhm
F634: hmm so that was, you know, that was that, and, evidently, my gran had
brought brought quite a few people, you know, a few of the neighbours erm
that had gone into to labour too quick, you know, the the midwives didn't
get there in time. erm, my gran thought nothing of it. Well, I mean, she'd
had thirteen of her own. //[laugh]//
F631: //Yeah [laugh].//
F634: She knew fine. She maybe delivered some of them. She knew fine what
to do and and and so on. So, I mean, it was quite nice, cause she used to
tell me years later, erm, that, you know, she had brought me into the
world, and, fortunately, it was quite an easy birth, you know, there was no
complication. I'm sure if there's complications, then you have to get into
hospital, but, most babies in these days were born at home. And you only
went into hospital to have your baby, in these days, if there was a
complication. Most infants were born at home.
F631: mmhm
F634: So my granny certainly brought me into the world. erm
F631: And the, was it common em, was it common for men to be round
F634: No.
F631: in these days?
F634: oh no, oh no. It wasn't common for men to be around when you were
born, //Cerwyss//
F631: //mmhm//
F634: Some men did it. Some men chose to do it. But it wasn't common. And I
think a lot of it, I don't even think it was so much the men didn't want to
be there. The hospital didn't want them there. It was, they've changed, you
see, that's all changed now, wi the hospital, and I think it's changed for
the better; the hospital recognises that mums want the dad there, want
their husbands there. In some cases. But in in certainly in my mum's day,
oh my God, my my my dad, well, certainly, my dad erm, was at sea, you know,
he was in the Navy, and he was away with the War. eh but, I would have
doubted if he would have been there. And none of the me-, the boys were
allowed in the room. You know, none of the the brothers, or, certainly, my
brothers were allowed into the room. erm yeah, it was very very different
in these days. But ehm, I think I think my mum, by the time I came along,
had probably just had enough babies, you know, she'd had brought up,
practically brought up all her own
F631: mmhm
F634: siblings, and then she had four, four of her own. So I think she'd
just well had enough by that time.
F631: Yeah. //[inaudible]//
F634: //And eh//
F631: [inaudible]
F634: That's right, that's right. So I mean it was hard. It was hard for
her, there's no doubt about it. But erm yeah, it just seems, it doesn't
seem that long ago, but yet in some ways it's a million light-years from
from nowadays, you know how things have //changed, and//
F631: //mmhm//
F634: and some things have definitely changed for the better, but I still
think some things were were better in our day; in that, you know, we could
we could play in the street. There was no cars. I mean, cars never came
along our street. Cars, I was in, I was, I wasn't in a car until I was
about seven, because, and the only reason I was in a car was because I was
a flower girl, at our next-door neighbour's wedding. And Olive and I got to
sit in a in a car. And, eh we thought that was amazing. And I I got gloves.
That was another amazing thing. I got the, I mean I didn't worry, when you,
I was like you when you were little girls, you never liked dresses and
things, Neither did I. And the only way I would wear the dress was, I had
gloves. I got to wear these gloves. And eh [laugh] I remember my mum sayin
to me, "it's ridiculous, you know, she doesnae like wearin the dress, but
she's happy to wear the gloves!" [laugh]
F631: [laugh]
F634: So, for some reason, we had these little white, you know,
wrist-gloves. eh and I thought I was, I was really something, in these
gloves, And eh yeah
F631: So you think, do you think it was much safer then for children, or do
you think it's just that you hear more about what goes on now? //Do you
think it was generally safer?//
F634: //[inhale] [exhale]// I think, it was generally safer, and yet, I was
taken [laugh] away from the street, but we won't go into that. But I think
it was ge- generally safer, and the reason for that is, that an awful lot
of the neighbours hung around the street. //There was//
F631: //mmhm//
F634: more, there was more community spirit, I think, then. erm, and that
might be just because even of the layout of the houses, I don't know. But
there seemed to, in in our street, there was a, two shops on the end of the
street. You know, there was a a greengrocer and a grocer, like a a
fruit-shop and a and a grocer. And the the the ladies of the street,
certainly the elderly ladies of the street, used to sit on the shop
windowsills, and you know, share their snuff boxes, and chatter away of an
evening, you know, they were all, there was always somebody in the street.
So, of course, when kids were playing; you know, if they fell over, or they
were unwell, or they were fighting,
F631: mmhm
F634: something, these elderly ladies were unwittingly babysitters.
F631: mmhm
F634: You know, cause they'd say, "Hey stop that!" or, you know, they would
they would get involved in some fracas, if if anything was happening. And I
think that culture has gone. I think that culture's gone, because people
are, well I don't, I think I think it might have just been the layout of
the buildings and everything. I'm not sure. And the fact that it was, eh
there was no traffic
F631: uh-huh
F634: came along the //street.//
F631: //mm//
F634: And there was no buses, you see, in these days; it was tram-cars. And
the tram-cars came down the main street, because of the the cable line.
F631: Yes.
F634: erm, so the street really was a a playground. The street was the
playground. erm And we had the park, we had Baxter Park. But then, you
couldn't go up to Baxter Park unless somebody took you there, you know,
cause it was a fair wee step for us.
F631: uh-huh
F634: But the boys, you know, my brothers, they they played in the street,
they played football in the street. And there was air-raid sh- [laugh]
there was air-raid shelters round the back, eh in our close, you know,
fo-fo- for the War. And, of course, they weren't taken down, even after the
War finished. So the best thing in the world was to climb on the top of
them. erm and they would be maybe nine, ten feet high, you know, they
weren't that high, but high when you're wee. And of course you weren't
allowed on them. There was a big rule.
F631: mm
F634: and kids weren't allowed on the top; they were allowed to go in them,
but they weren't allowed to go on the top of them. And there were all
manner of wee, sort of, wooden ladders and things, and wee, wee sort of wee
piles of stones that that would be erected to get you up onto the top and
they were all hidden round
F631: mmhm
F634: from the from the windows, hidden round the back, so that your mum,
if she looked out, she couldnae see you climbin onto the shelter, And you
never climbed on a shelter, of course, that was within sight of your own
window. Everybody went to another shelter. And there was one day that Olive
and I were, you know, they had got me up onto the she- I was only about
three seemingly, and they'd got me up onto this shelter. And, eh I mean, we
were just we just felt we were so mischievous, and we were bein so
dare-devilish, you know, on the top of this shelter. And I can remember
actually being a bit wimpy and thinkin [inhale], you know, it seemed so
high, once I got up there, I thought 'oh!' [inhale] erm and then the next
thing was, the policeman came through the big pend, and all we could see
was the top of his helmet. And Olive says to me, "Lie flat on your face and
don't say a word." //[laugh]//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: So, I'm spread-eagled on the top of this shelter. And ehm, little did
we know that this guy could just stand on the pile of stones that we got up
on, and then we could see his whole head lookin across. And all he did - he
was a great big man - and all he did was put over his massive hand, pluck
me off of this shelter, and, you know, lift me down, but dropped me about a
[laugh] foot from the //bottom, [laugh] so that I//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: so that I didn't get down with too much ease. And eh, and then he
[lick] licked his pencil [lick], sheafed through his note-book to get to
the right page, and then he said, "Name!" //[laugh]//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: So, of course, your name went in the policeman's book, and the idea
now was the policeman was gonna go to your door,
F631: mmhm
F634: and tell your mum, you'd been on the shelters. So Olive and I decided
we were actually going to have to run away. We could not go home, because
the punishment would fit the crime, and the crime was bad, and the
punishment would be worse. So we thought, "Well, we'll just make a run for
it." [laugh] [inhale] So we went out the close, and we got along to the end
of the street, and Olive just kept sayin to me, "Just keep followin me,
just keep followin me." And then we looked up the street, and [laugh] all
we could see was my gran comin down Albert Street, bustling as she did, you
know she always came down as though she was on a mission. [laugh] She came
down, and she shouts to Olive, "You! Come here!" So, of course, she'd seen
the two of us, you see. So, Olive goes up, "What're you doin what're you
doin on the end of the street? You werenae supposed to be on the end of the
street, you see, you were all supposed to be on the middle of the street."
So Olive said eh, "oh we're just we're just lookin for somebody." She said,
"Well, get!" //and that meant [laugh] "Get!" meant "Get home!"//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: So, we just turned tail and went back, and we we sort of sat outside
for a while thinkin, "Well, has he been yet? Has has he been to the door
yet? Or, or will he go after." Cause we thought, "Well, we need to go, we
need to get some tea sometime", //So, we werenae sure whether [laugh] we
should go//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: and have the tea and then get the belting, or or we should just not
go. But I I'm not, I mean I've got this story in my head and I'm not just
sure what happened, but certainly we never got into trouble, so I don't
think the guy ever went near the door. I don't think the policeman did.
But, on sayin that, we never went on the shelters again, Because we just
got such a fright; that, if my mum, like if a policeman ever went to your
door [inhale] I mean, that was the end of the //world, you know.//
F631: //Yeah.// Can you remember rations, mum? Did you still //have
rations?//
F634: //mmhm// mmhm, had ration-books right up until, we didn't have ration
books in Fintry, so I would imagine, I think nineteen forty-eight.
F631: mmhm
F634: Or forty-eight, forty-nine would be the end of the rationing, I
think. And that's why we'd never any sweeties. Because you did get coupons
for sweeties, but you could swap them for coupons for an egg.
F631: mmhm
F634: This kind of thing, and of course m- I mean, sweeties were were for
rich children, you know, erm, so we never ever got sweeties. I can remember
gettin an Easter Egg. when I was quite big; when I say that, maybe eight or
nine, from my uncle John. bought Olive and I an Easter Egg, and, I mean,
[inhale] you just thought all your birthdays had come together - a an
Easter Egg to yourself, And we were in Woolworth's, and the woman went to
put mine in a bag, you know, put it in a bag, and I didn't want it in a
bag, cause I had to show it off. I wanted everybody in the world to see
this Easter Egg, And really show it off that it was mine. And, of course,
my mum confiscated the Easter Egg, as soon as we got home. The Easter Egg
was put into the cupboard and we were only allowed a tiny little bit every
day. And she was allowed a tiny little bit of our Easter Egg every day. So
with the result that Easter Egg [laugh] lasted, seemed to last forever, but
we just, we just, and, I mean, you you couldnae steal it, you know, I mean,
you couldnae, that did occur to us, we thought pfff  we could go and steal
a bit more. But she knew.
F631: mmhm
F634: She knew what stage that Easter Egg was at [laugh], so you could not
steal it. And eh and I reckon, I've got a theory on this, cause I reckon
that's why we all had good teeth. You know, we never had a bloomin
toothbrush, but then we never had sweeties. And we didn't have biscuits.
You know, we didn't have a lot of sweet things. erm, didn't have really a
lot of anything, but you certainly didn't have a lot of sweet things. erm
But yeah, I've got a lot of got a lot of happy memories, erm, I don't have
memories, sadly, of like ever getting on my mum's knee, or getting a story,
or, I mean, we didn't have any story books or, erm, I loved I loved goin to
the the little story story classes in the library; there was little
story-telling classes, where you could, primaries one, two and three got
allowed to go to the library, and a lady would come and read a story to
you. And eh, that was great. I loved that. Cause she w- she w- this lady
would make all the characters come to life. You know, she would speak like
the character did, and I always thought that was really clever. erm,
because, because she became that character in the book, you know. erm but
after you came out of primary three that was it, you know, you never got
another story in your life again; that was the [laugh] end of the stories
[laugh] . So, I I don't have memories of that kind of home life, but I have
I have happy memories of of situations and incidents at school and outside
of home life, you know.
F631: mmhm
F634: I have that. erm
F631: When did you start going skating, because that was a thing that
//[inaudible]?//
F634: //mm// mmhm, yeah, skating, I started to go erm, when I was, probably
in secondary-school, twelve.
F631: Right.
F634: Yeah, I started goin when I was twelve. I started to try and learn to
skate - that was a laugh, cause you spent more time on the on the ice than
you did on your feet. But, but, eventually, you know, after years of years
of ploddin on became quite a good skater - certainly quite a good speed
skater. erm, used to like to go up at the, what they called the ladies'
speed, and, you know, the ladies would go and, go round as fast as they
could, and then there was the men's speed, and then there was the dancing,
and I didn't, I wasn't good enough for that, but
F631: Is that //actual//
F634: //erm//
F631: dancing?
F634: Yeah, they danced on ice, yeah yeah. Maureen Golden,  I remember
Maureen Golden; the first time I ever saw her, ever saw her was on the ice.
And it was only after I met up with her years later, I said to her, "I
recognise you. You used to be an ice-skater, a dance- ice-dance skater
didn't you?" and she said, "yeah." She had the most beautiful costumes, I
remember. She always had different costumes on. And she was very very good.
She was a great ice-dance skater. And I used to love watchin it. At that
time, most people just went away and had a cup of tea or a drink of juice
when the these intervals were on. But I always stayed; I always just liked
to watch them. And a few couples would go and do the dancing together.
F631: mmhm
F634: erm, it really it really was good [inhale] But erm, yeah, I liked
skating.
F631: And what did you wear when you went
F634: To the skating? [laugh] Well, I got a pair of, I thought I was
really, [inhale] I was really something. I got a pair of wine, burgundy,
corduroy trousers. [inhale] And a white polo-neck jumper. [tut] And that
was really trendy in these days, that was really trendy. And I can
remember, I had a skating-skirt, I had a skating-skirt, cause b-, cause b-
girls wore skating skirts in these days. erm, and, I can remember just not
liking it, cause I thought it was too long. And eh, I said to Olive, you
know, my sister, "Could you, could you, could you shorten that for me?" you
know. Mrs can't-do-anything-for-herself said, "Could you could you shorten
that for me?" And ehm, so she starts to pin it up a bitty, you see, and I
says, "No I want it shorter than that, I want it shorter than that!" And
she was saying erm, "You can't get it any shorter than that, for goodness'
sake!" And, I think it was Neil, Neil came in, and, c- you know, came in on
all this nonsense and me saying, "I want it shorter than that!" And eh, and
he said, "No you don't." He said, "it's, that's a good length the way that
is just now." And he said, "Always remember, it's what people don't see
that's more //interesting, not//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: what they see!"
F631: [laugh]
F634: And eh, I've never //forgotten that.//
F631: //[laugh]//
F634: So, anyway I got my skirt at the the decent length,
F631: mmhm
F634: And eh, and that was that. But we didn't wear skirts too long, or an-
or too, you know, it was mostly trousers, it was mostly trousers, cause it
was cold. You know, and if you went down wi the skating-skirt on, you know,
you were you were soaking, you know, and the bi- your trousers gave you a
wee bitty more protection.
F631: mmhm
F634: And it was great fun. I loved the skating. That's where I met my
first boyfriend. //Bill.//
F631: //[inaudible]//
F634: Bill Heron. That's where I met him. But he really fancied my friend.
He fancied my friend Carol Raines. [inhale] So it was really after things
things just went sour with him and Carol, I had to wait in line, and then
after things went really sad with him and Carol, tut erm. He started to
skate around with me. That was what you did, you, it meant, the boys came
and, sort of, skated alongside you. erm [laugh] When I think back, and eh
he offered me a piece of his chewing-gum. That was quite serious.
F631: [inaudible]
F634: That was it.
F631: [laugh]
F634: That was serious. erm, I thought he was probably gonna, the next
question would be he would be wanting to marry me. That wasn't the next
question. The next question was, "How far do you live from the ice-rink?"
That was before he said, "Can I walk you home?" So he had to wait and see
how far it was, and was it in his direction, or, and, fortunately, it was
kind of in his direction. erm, so Bill and I, sort of, skated around
together, went for wee walks, you know, I was maybe about fourteen,
thirteen, fourteen at this time. Went for wee walks on a Sunday around
Caird Park, and eh scintillating stuff! And oh I liked I liked he had a
lovely little sister, I remember. There was there was Bill and then there
was this huge gap, you know, and then his mum had this unexpected little
baby, you know, a little girl. And she, I I remember her, I just thought
she was gorgeous, she was like a wee Shirley Temple, only blonde.
F631: mm
F634: erm, and sometimes he used to come with her, and we would take her to
the park and and stuff like that. And then we just, sort of, drifted, you
know, we just drifted away, but it was certainly the skating that the first
boyfriend [laugh] was was on the cards. erm, but yeah, the skating was
really good fun. And again, it was dead safe, because we used to come out
the skating and walk all the way home. You know, along the Kingsway. All
the way home, and it was a long way, that was quite a long way. But, there
was never d-d- don't remember any trouble, or anybody bein [inhale]
attacked, or assaulted, or mugged, or anything like that, you know, it was,
it seemed to be dead safe. erm Yeah, it was good. You liked the skating too
//didn't you?//
F631: //Yeah.//
F634: Yeah. Yeah.


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Audio
Audio audience
Adults (18+): For gender: Mixed
Audience size: 2

Audio awareness & spontaneity
Speaker awareness: Aware
Degree of spontaneity: Spontaneous

Audio footage information
Year of recording: 2003
Recording person id: 631
Size (min): 47
Size (mb): 180

Audio medium
Other: Private conversation.

Audio setting
Private/personal: Recording venue: Private house
Geographic location of speech: Dundee

Audio relationship between recorder/interviewer and speakers
Family members or other close relationship: Speakers knew each other: Yes

Audio speaker relationships
Family members or other close relationship: 
Audio transcription information
Transcriber id: 632
Year of transcription: 2003
Year material recorded: 2003
Word count: 9177

Audio type
Interview: 

Participant
Participant details
Participant id: 631
Gender: Female
Decade of birth: 1970
Educational attainment: University
Age left school: 17
Upbringing/religious beliefs: Protestantism
Occupation: Research Assistant
Place of birth: Dundee
Region of birth: W Angus
Birthplace CSD dialect area: Ags
Country of birth: Scotland
Place of residence: Glasgow
Region of residence: Glasgow
Residence CSD dialect area: Gsw
Country of residence: Scotland
Father's occupation: Car Salesman
Father's place of birth: Dundee
Father's region of birth: W Angus
Father's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ags
Father's country of birth: Scotland
Mother's occupation: Doctor's Receptionist
Mother's place of birth: Dundee
Mother's region of birth: W Angus
Mother's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ags
Mother's country of birth: Scotland

Languages:
Language: English
Speak: Yes
Read: Yes
Write: Yes
Understand: Yes
Circumstances: All circumstances
Language: Scots
Speak: No
Read: Yes
Write: No
Understand: Yes
Circumstances: 


Participant
Participant details
Participant id: 634
Gender: Female
Decade of birth: 1940
Educational attainment: Highers/A-levels
Age left school: 15
Upbringing/religious beliefs: Protestantism
Occupation: Retired Medical Computer Operator
Place of birth: Dundee
Region of birth: W Angus
Birthplace CSD dialect area: Ags
Country of birth: Scotland
Place of residence: Dundee
Region of residence: W Angus
Residence CSD dialect area: Ags
Country of residence: Scotland
Father's occupation: Milkman
Father's place of birth: Dundee
Father's region of birth: W Angus
Father's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ags
Father's country of birth: Scotland
Mother's occupation: Weaver in a Jute Mill
Mother's place of birth: Dundee
Mother's region of birth: W Angus
Mother's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ags
Mother's country of birth: Scotland

Languages:
Language: English
Speak: Yes
Read: Yes
Write: Yes
Understand: Yes
Circumstances: All circumstances
Language: Scots
Speak: No
Read: No
Write: No
Understand: Yes
Circumstances: