SCOTS Project - www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk

Document : 768
Title    : Interview 05: John Law on the Scots language
Author(s): N/A

Copyright holder(s): Claire Girvan
                     SCOTS Project

Audio transcription


M055: Well it was founded as the journal of the Scots Language Society in
eh I think it was nineteen seeventie-twa. And eh the group o fowk that that
brocht the society thegither, ye know, includit Hugh MacDiarmid, eh, Robert
Garioch, but also [inaudible] George Philp and and David Purves that have
kept wi the society ower the years.
F785: And was there any significance in the date - nineteen seventy-two?
Was anything to do with devolution at the time, or?
M055: Well, devolution was er faur on the horizon then, eh, [inaudible] by
the time o Winnie Ewing's success at Hamilton, and o coorse the er Scots
National Party wis wis beginning a [inaudible] of rapid growth at that
time, that er come through in success in the nineteen seeventie-fower
elections.
F785: So who publishes Lallans and what else do they publish?
M055: [Tut], it's still published by the Scots Language Society, eh, which
appints an editor eh who is a [inaudible] [?]editorial[/?] comatee, to feed
in ideas and eh eh the editor and the editorial [?]comatee[/?] are left a
fairly free haund to get on wi it but the magazine belangs the the Scots
Language Society.
F785: Okay. Ehm there's a general growing interest in Scottish culture at
the moment, ehm there's been best-selling history books which nobody would
have guessed ten years ago, ehm the Writing Scotland series recently, there
was the massive success of the Edinburgh Book Festival, the recent City of
Literature tag, does this help to strengthen your argument about the Scots
language do you think?
M055: I've eh been intensely involved since aboot the late echties and eh
thinkin through the fifteen year or so since that time, I would say there's
been a an explosion of publishin generally but publishin in Scots tae, and
eh that's pairtly been eh the product of an enlichtened policy eh at the
Scottish Arts Council, er little thanks tae onie of our political
maisters.
F785: Okay. Ehm, what about teachin Scots in schools? We've had ehm the
Kist and Itchy Coo books. Are these the kind of initiatives that you would
like to see or would you just like to see Scots become a compulsory part of
teaching?
M055: Tut, well I I think the the Kist and the Itchy Coo books have been
excellent, eh, initiatives baith, but eh we've been ower dependent I think
on a a a gey sma number o charismatic teachers, eh, like, fowk like Matthew
Fitt,
F785: Mmhm
M055: and Sheena Blackhall, eh Kathleen Frew, you know and and folk that
have gone in, Liz Niven, eh these folk have been few and far between though
and there's nae explicit provision eh in the curriculum, eh, fur Scots -
it's it's taken in as a kinna, it's an oothoose eh of English teachin.
F785: Mmhm
M055: And eh you know you you would hope that eh teachin through the medium
o Scots would have some pairt to play and indeed that's pairt o the
Scottish National Party's policy, that particularly in the in the early
years o scuil there should be some greater attempt tae mak yiss o eh Scots
as a medium o teachin. Now at at the minute there nae provision for that
whatsoever and there there nae concentration on expertise in the teachin
profession to bring that aboot. Eh, whaur teachers can speak Scots eh quite
aften they they canna speak the Scots o the airt they happen to be teachin
in.
F785: Mmhm.
M055: And eh they're they're no confident wi speakin it in public oniewey
and eh, ye know, eh the language is likely to be gey roostie wi them.
There's exceptions o coorse but eh wi'oot some political provision bein
made for the the bringin through o teachers wi the skills necessar, eh, ye
know, Scots is likely to bide a- as a wee oothoose; a wee occasional gemm
for the weans, you know?
F785: Mmhm
M055: An it's it's no likely to tak a central place the wey it shid.
F785: Mmhm, yeah certainly from my school days the only thing we did was
the Burns' //poem//
M055: //Aye.//
F785: once a year.
M055: That's right, the token, //the token//
F785: //Aye.// //Yeah.//
M055: //Burns' thing,// you know? An in fact I I sometimes hiv a concern
even aboot the likes o the competitions we rin ourselves at Lallans where
we invite scuils tae pit in work eh and you wonder if you're just kinna
providin the occasion for a single exercise or
F785: Mmhm
M055: ye know, a lesson that that results in a piece o work tae be entered
till a competition.
F785: Mmhm Ehm how would you like Scots to be taught then, would it be like
a second language like French or German, or would it be instead of English?
Would it start from primary up to university? I mean,
M055: [Tut], I think I think the key thing is to hae teachers, I mean even
if it is to be taught eh in alang wi Inglis and you would hate to think it
would be taught in alang wi Inglis because if you're //tryin tae//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: teach twa divergent spellin systems and sets o representation for twa
leids that are are gey sib, ane till ither, then ye hae tae think well,
[cough] ye know, perhaps in in in that case, unlike the case wi Gaelic it
would be sensible that the twa things was aye in in tandem in some sense.
But the teachers has tae ken whit they're talkin aboot.
F785: Yeah.
M055: [Sniff]. Excuse me, I've got to cough. [cough] I'll poor this tea and
we'll just cairrie on //talkin.//
F785: //Yeah.// Ehm your website mentions only the SNP and the Green
parties have clear policies on Scots. Ehm, could you tell me what they are
and do they fulfil the needs or the wants of Scots enthusiasts?
M055: No, the Liberal Party eh earlier this year took a fairly clear
position on Scots an aw. Eh. The Scottish National Party's policy, which A
had a hand in pittin through national conference masel, is based on eh the
European Chairter for Regional and Minority Languages an an basically says
as far as A can mind, A'll f- A'll find ye the ful text o that resolution,
eh, but basically says that the, ye know, the richts eh set oot in the
European Chairter should be the basis of of policy in Scotland and no just
in Pairt Twa the wey eh the Government presently accepts but in in relation
to Pairt Three o the Chairter, in other words in in ful detail through
cultural life in the country. Eh, the other the other rider to that was eh
support fur fur Scots medium education in the early scuil in particular.
F785: Mmhm
M055: Ye know, so that areas whaur the the Scots dialect is is still eh to
the fore, the the initial teachin should have a heavy bias towards the
retention of that dialect and the the passin it on till the new generations
o o bairns.
F785: So I take it if you're talkin about making teachers more aware of
Scots that would mean retraining them so //would that be quite costly and
would therefore put a lot of people off.//
M055: //It would mean it would mean teacher trainin, aye, it would mean, it
would greatly increase// teacher training. Eh, I mean it would be regarded
as an extraordinary proposition in onie other country, in onie other
situation, that fowk should be settin oot tae teach a language that they
cudnae even speak theirsel.
F785: Mmhm Well, that's not the problem though. Ehm defining what Scots is
and who speaks it it's quite kind of slippery and difficult to explain I
think. Some people speak Scots without realising it, or. So do you think,
is that a problem or is the diversity one of the Scots' advantages over
other languages?
M055: I dinna think that's a problem, I think that's an excuse pitten aboot
be folk that eh, ye know, maybe dinna ken [laugh] a lot aboot //Scots an//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: cannae speak it theirsels. I dinnae think there's a lot o difficulty
for fowk that does speak it. //Kennin//
F785: //Yeah.//
M055: what it is they're speakin or when they're speakin it.
F785: Okay, so that's not a problem for you, it's just
M055: I think it's an excuse brocht up eh by an education system that disna
want to be challenged.
F785: Okay.
M055: Eh, I've I've seen, ye know, reaction fae teachers, eh quite adverse
to the idea that there's something new that they should learn theirsels.
F785: Mmhm
M055: But other others that are mair honest ken fine that they cannae
cannae teach whit they cannae speak.
F785: Okay. Ehm authors such as Irvine Welsh, ehm Kelman, Leonards, Matthew
Fitt, Anne Donovan, they've all employed Scots in their work quite
differently eh with different intents of course, how successful do you
think they've been?
M055: [Tut], weel, different writers, different cases. Ehm, [tut] I think
Irv- Irvine Welsh's Scots is is particularly authentic as a representation
of eh street Scots and the- there's there's many a thing in Irvine Welsh
that I've read that I recognise eh, ye know, fae streets that I've walked
doon tae. Ehm, [tut], ither writers I I I dinna think, er I dinna think
Kelman employs a great deal o Scots. He's he's writin out of a a Glesga
that's that's the workin cless eh culture in in Glesga's lost a lot o its
Scots be noo. Ehm, Anne Donovan I hivnae read. Eh, Matthew Fitt is a very
literary writer, eh very interesting experimental eh science fiction in a
sort of, eh ye know, yaisin a lot o neologisms and so on //very//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: interestin work. Ehm wha else did ye //mention?//
F785: //Erm, Tom// Leonard?
M055: Tom Leonard, eh I I I dinnae hae a lot of eh, maybe, knowledge o Tom
Leonard's work. What I've seen eh seems to me a very vestigial spare eh
yiss o Scots where the Scots is yaised fur anither artistic purpose. I mean
it's it's no ilka writer eh that yaises Scots that has a particular
attachment tae the Scots Language Movement as such, and there's nae reason
why that should be so.
F785: Mmhm
M055: Eh, ye know, guid literature's guid literature regardless of the the
writer's view or interest. I mean Welsh, for example, disnae yaise eh,
disnae yaise any spellins that are onie wey sib to whit the Scots Language
Movement wid ha recommendit till him.
F785: Mmhm
M055: But that disnae seem to get in the road of his work bein very widely
acceptit, ye know, in the context o world literature, so I think, I think
possibly spellin and representation maitters a lot less eh than what
sometimes we would mak it, ye know, in the, in the Scots movement.
F785: Mmhm. Ehm, I heard Anne Donovan talk and she said that one review had
said she was a political writer. I'm assuming it's because she uses Scots
and she said she didn't use it because of that she just heard, she hears a
voice in her head, //and she writes//
M055: //Mmhm//
F785: what she hears [inaudible] //[inaudible] but that's, she just,
yeah.//
M055: //Aye well she she's writin aboot the culture she kens, that's fine,
aye.//
F785: So do you think use of Scots is necessarily political and could it
explain the reluctance to use it by government and also by writers?
M055: Weel we get into the the the orra territory o the the Scots cringe or
the Scots crulge as David Purves cries it, eh, whaur fowk have had it
kinna, no beaten oot of them but eh they've they've kinna been intimidatit
fae using it because they they maybe be seen to be eh uneducatit,
ill-educatit, eh, or even perhaps tae be seen to be pittin it on, which
some fowk worry aboot. Ye know, ye're pittin it on. They yaised tae say
that aboot eh Billy Kay, whereas I think Billy Kay's Scots is some of the
maist natural Scots ye can hear, ye know?
F785: Mmhm, yeah, there was a boy in one o my classes was like that and it
did sound put on cause he was just so resolutely speaking Scots all the
time and it
M055: Aye.
F785: I hadn't met anybody that spoke like that in a //long time.//
M055: //Aye.// Weel, ye see, ye get thrawn as ye get aulder.
F785: Yeah, I think, I used to speak quite broad and then I moved to
Dundee, //an//
M055: //uh-huh//
F785: everybody kinna laughed at my accent cause it was really broadly
Glas- //Glaswegian,//
M055: //Aye.//
F785: an that I just //lost it in a couple o years.//
M055: //Aye, well, this is it, if ye have a, if ye have a// pronounced
local accent and ye ye chynge the bit ye stey
F785: Mm
M055: eh then it disnae necessarily go doon sae weel. //But//
F785: //Yeah.//
M055: it depends hoo much Scots ye lift. Eh, I mean, I dinna find speakin
to Sheena Blackhall, for example, that I hae to drap my Lanarkshire Scots
in order to speak to her North East Doric. //Ye know?//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: Eh they're perfectly mutually intelligible and yaise a lot o the same
words an some o the things that are are thocht to be North East things I
mean I I ken are Lanarkshire things tae, so ye know.
F785: Mmhm. Ehm would you also support the teaching of Gaelic in schools? 
Would that come under the same
M055: Weel G- Gaelic's a a different eh, a different thing, I mean I think
it's necessary for Gaelic to have Gaelic medium education, eh although, ye
know, an there's a resources problem there, just gettin haud o enough eh
Gaelic teachers to provide adequate eh additional provision for Gaelic in
our scuils. Ye know because the Gaelic teachers that there's available in
Scotland as far as I unnerstaun it anyway eh are needed fur the Gaelic
scuils. So it makes it d- eh hard to say that ye, ye know, you've to have a
Gaelic specialist in ilka, ivver primary scuil or ivver secondary scuil.
But it's a peety mind you that there's nae provision I I I also eh have a
wee bit o Gaelic masel and eh, ye know, rather regret that I didnae get it
earlier at scuil but had to pick it up in nichtclesses efter.
F785: Mmhm. This is quite a big question. Ehm, who or what's to blame for
the demise and oppression of the Scots language?
M055: [Tut] Sorry, I didnae quite catch //the question.//
F785: //Who,// who or what is to blame for the demise and the oppression of
the Scots language?
M055: Demise and oppression? Weel, I dinnae ken aboot demise. //It's no
deid.//
F785: //Mmhm// No.
M055: Ehm, and to whit extent it's dwinin, weel we've nae we've nae
particular evidence to whit extent it's dwinin. Ye would think it wis. Eh,
common sense wid seem to tell you that it wis. On the other han, eh, is
there a chynge wi fowk the noo? Eh certainly there're mair Scots voices
heard on on the wireless than there wi- there wis when I wis a bairn. Eh, I
I think, ye know, folk haudin on till their ve- vernacular is possibly an
emergent feature, an and something that may have been in in a lang dwine
has aiblins been comin back, but in the absence o census information it's
gey hard to tell whether that's the case or no. But ye can jalouse a wee
bit fae readin eh, I mean I wis I wis readin a a biography o Charles Murray
the ither day. And Charles Murray when he came back to Scotland eh, ye
know, was gied some award and he was talkin at the awards ceremony as
though Scots was mair or less shuckt in a'ready and deid, ye know? Which
it's clearly it's no. Eh, the same kind of worry was evident in Burns's
day, that the thing was being killed oot, an if ye read the likes of eh
John Sinclair's eh book aboot Scotticisms and aw the things we we shouldna
dae, //ye know,//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: eh it can be seen that we're daein the feck o them yet, ye know, in
speech. //So//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: to what extent Scots is is facin demise, it's equally possible that
that Scots is, ye know, just yin o the teuchest languages to kill oot
because it can re-predate grund that's been predated on be English.
F785: Mmhm
M055: So I dinnae ken that. Ither evidence, I mean pintin the other wey, is
anecdotal that, ye know, areas whaur eh freens o mind in the Vale o Leven
tell me that, that's whaur I did my teachin stent back in the seeventies,
Eh, and the bairns there at that time were quite Scots spoken. Now freens
that still teach in there tell me that's no the case noo. So there's
certainly grunds for worry that, ye know, the dialect's fa'in back certain
areas. //And there's//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: there's similar research till that effect eh frae the the North East
eh land as weel. Sheena Blackhall's done some research that shows that the
playgrund language in Ballater for example eh has turned English
athegither. Even though there's a lot o Scots but just the proportion of
English weans in the area has cowped the playgrund language the other way
F785: Mmhm
M055: than whit it yaised to be. So these these pressures eh go on wi
population movement and ye ye just cannae tell whit's happenin in in in
[?]they are aw[/?] ye know?
F785: Mmhm
M055: [sniff]
F785: Ehm, durin the Scottish renaissance of the twenties and thirties,
many writers including McDiarmid struggled to find a publisher in Scotland.
Ehm, why do you think this was and ehm, how important was the contribution
of McDiarmid and writers like him?
M055: [Tut] I I think the contribution of McDiarmid and and writers like
him eh was absolutely seminal, in that eh suddenly here was, here was a, ye
know, a language being taken seriously intellectually, and very quickly eh
not just in Scotland but by, ye know, fellow writers across the world who
recognised particularly in McDiarmid's voice eh, ye know, that that tough
intellectualism and and s- and substance that that made the work be taken
seriously. Indeed I think at different times depending what writers have
appeared, lookin through the history o Scots, [inaudible] figures like
Burns, Scott, eh Stevenson even, eh McDiarmid. Ye know, when there have
been very good writers, they've they've had no difficulty, Welsh is an
example in the present day, they've had no difficulty selling big time, ye
know, in in the world English market, because the languages are are aye
mutually comprehensible.
F785: Mm. Ehm, McDiarmid and other writers used literary journals to get
published. Would you describe your magazine as a literary journal?
M055: Yes, it's a literary journal, aye. //[?]Sure.[/?]//
F785: //I mean you publish [inaudible]// [inaudible] I mean you pub-
publish poems and stories. //and.//
M055: //Yes.//
F785: Yeah. So would you still see literary journals as being as important
now, especially for the Scots language?
M055: [Cough]. I think they they are still important [cough] it's eh, ye
know, d- despite media like the World Wide Web or, ye know, ony writer at
aw can have a website an an //and many//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: dae, ye know, many folk self-publish eh, I dae, ye know, I stick odd
things on the web eh just as it comes up my back, but eh it it's important
for work eh to go through an editorial process,
F785: [sniff]
M055: ye know and to to to be in competition with the work of peers and, ye
know, to to win acceptance or or not in that field so a thriving range o
literary journals is, ye know, of the first importance really to to bring,
to bring on new writers. And even, ye know, to to continue to publish
aulder writers whose whose output will aye be thin, but may have a a high
quality which which means it demands attention.
F785: Mmhm. Ehm, do you think McDiarmid and the modern writers that I
mentioned earlier have been important in showing that there's an interest
to reading Scots?
M055: [Tut], eh, [click], I think th- there is an interest in reading Scots
eh when folk happen ower it or when it gets read oot to them. It's very
successful wi audiences, //if you//
F785: //Mm//
M055: if you can get an audience, ye know! [laugh]
F785: Yeah. //[laugh]//
M055: //But eh// naebody's naebody's goin to get rich oot o wee books o
poems eh or anything like that so, eh ye know, ye need a thriving
poetry-reading scene and probably a a better thriving drama scene than than
what we have yet in Scotland, that's yin of the great causes unwon. Okay
we've got the National Theatre noo but it's no had time to dae anything
yet, eh and the the theatre culture in Scotland is in is in financial
difficulty, ye know, it requires massive subsidy and withoot political
faith in the arts to really, ye know, get behind institutions and finance
them properly it's hard for drama to to mak progress.
F785: Mmhm, ehm, what place do you think the S- the Scottish Arts Council
has in promoting Scots and are they fulfilling this role?
M055: [Tut]. It has a, it has a, at present a central place in promotin
Scots eh I mean if it wisnae for what the Arts Cooncil's daein it's
difficult to see what would have been done. When you look at the
developments of the last fifteen year in particular, things like the
emergence of the Scots Language Resource Centre, eh, the completion of the
two big Scottish dictionaries, eh, and then the the putting of these
dictionaries onto the web, in the the DSL project, if you think of the
Itchy Coo books for education, eh if if these, the activities undertaken by
the Association for Scottish Literary Studies, all these things are Arts
Council fundit. The the the huge gap has been that there's no education
system fundin for Scots. So it's a wee bit like bein telt, ye know, "Aye,
awa you an write a poem and play yersels", [laugh]. And eh, ye know, that's
the [?]sillier[/?] you're getting. And, I mean, after all the Arts Cooncil
is there to support the arts so Scots has had arts funding and what it
hasnae had is education funding. And that's that's the big political gap in
the system if you like.
F785: Mmhm, would you like to see a separate literature body just to fund
language and literature?
M055: [Tut], [cough], I dinnae think that's necessar.
F785: No? Okay. Ehm, so do you feel, do you actually feel that you've seen
a a strengthened Scots in the last few years? Has, have you noticed any
sort of change, or, especially since devolution has anything
M055: [inhale] //No, maist//
F785: //changed?//
M055: maist o the, maist o the developments eh that I've I've just talked
aboot in eh answer til yer yer last question eh was aw weel in hand afore
devolution.
F785: Mm
M055: And eh the the adoption even o the European Chairter for Regional
Minority Languages was done be eh Brian Wilson eh as an act of the the UK
government. Eh, as to what the Scots Executive, eh, has done, an that after
all has been the responsible body, no the parliament, the the Scots
Executive has done hee-haw, they've had nothing but a series of reviews eh
fae the day an hoor that they got in, and the the net result has been that,
that, ye know, there are no new, eh, executive initiatives whatsoever of
ony benefit to the Scots language or indeed to the arts generally.
F785: Ehm, on the Scottish Parliament website, ehm, they make Scots
translations of certain pages available. Do you think it's a step in the
right direction or is it just tokenism, or?
M055: It's a step in the richt direction but it's tokenism. //Eh, I mean
w-//
F785: //[laugh] Okay.//
M055: w- Gaelic eh has, ye know, complete web coverage, but, eh, there's
there's nae appintment, eh, been made to get officers that that can speak
and write Scots weel into the the Scots civil service. So, ye know, whereas
Gaelic is properly resourced and there are, there are a set of Gaelic
pages, eh, ye know, and and a continuing production of Gaelic documents,
eh, the Scots documents that have been produced number as far as I ken
aboot twa, maybe three by noo? Eh, and the, ye know, I think there's maybe
yae web page?
F785: I think so, yeah.
M055: Aye. //So it's//
F785: //It's not much.//
M055: it's there as a a bit o decoration. //Ye know?//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: Eh.
F785: So you think Scots will only be taken seriously when it's used in
official documents then?
M055: [drink] I think, I think Scots will be taken seriously when it it
captures back its place in the cultural life o the country in a mair
vigorous wey as a result of mair fowk speakin, writin, performin, eh, ye
know, and bein heard on on the media. I'm I'm I'm I'm sorry I've kind of
forgotten the the central thrust o the last question.
F785: Ehm, will Scots only be taken seriously when it's used in official
//documents?//
M055: //[sniff] Official// documents. Aye weel, a-, [tut] the t- the tran-
the owersetting of official documents, I mean I wouldnae like to think that
that the hale energies of the Scots Language movement were pittin in till,
ye know, makin official versions o every bit of [?]faustian[/?] nonsense
that the Executive ivver pits oot. I mean where would ye get the fowk tae
dae all that?
F785: Mm
M055: Eh, English in in official documents is is yaised for obfuscation, ye
know, for describing the boring, the mundane, ah, ye know, purely to
service requirements, some o these documents have shelf lives of, ye know,
five meenits, eh, ye know, tae think that we're a going to pit oor energies
intae that would be a sad waste. Noo if there was hunders o folk that could
write Scots competently, eh, and get ordinary jobs in the civil service to
dae that then fine, but where are ye gonna get the fowk? The fowk, eh, wi
the capability at present would be better employed, eh, puttin their
energies into arts and education raither than, ye know, bureaucracy.
F785: Mmhm. Ehm, do you happen to know if any of the political parties do
provide Scots translations of some of their speeches or
M055: [tut]
F785: any of //the documents?//
M055: //The eh// ehm, the SNP used to aye, eh, produce, or [?]Standing
Still[/?] does produce the Convenor's address to National Conference in in
//Scots.//
F785: //Yeah.// [sniff]
M055: [sniff] [sniff]
F785: [Tut], ehm, I think you've already answered this one but do you think
devolution has had any effect, positive or negative, on Scottish culture?
M055: Well, I-I- I think eh, ye know, i-i- it's almost beginning to be
detrimental. Eh, the less they dae, ye know, the mair it seems that we've
nae ideas. Ye know, when the, they can't see the the massive, I mean,
fortunately there's a degree of autonomy through, ye know, organisations,
eh, like the Scots Arts Cooncil, like the the local authorities. Ye know, I
mean Edinburgh Cooncil is a far mair significant cultural player and seems
to have far mair [laugh] interesting cultural ideas when ye think aboot it
and aw the activities that goes on in in in Edinburgh
F785: Mmhm
M055: eh, than the Scottish Executive from whom we hear absolutely
hee-haw.
F785: Mmhm. Yeah, Gavin McDougall yesterday was telling a, you were talking
about the importance of performing Scots poetry and apparently Edinburgh's
got a vibrant scene. I mean there's so many things //going on, I haven't
heard of it//
M055: //Mmhm, mmhm.//
F785: anywhere else. He mentioned 'The Big Word' which happens all over
Scotland but apart from that there's not an awful lot goin on.
M055: Yeah, yeah, I mean, well I don't, I dinnae ken aboot that, I mean,
there's [sigh] ye know, there's there's progress. I mean, take the A K Bell
Library in Perth, I mean, it has a hundred-seater lecture theatre and
there's there's events aw the time in that theatre, aw kinds of different
groups, many of them cultural
F785: Mmhm.
M055: eh, goin on, and and similar things goes on through the North East
and the Doric Festival and what have ye, ye know, there's a there's a huge
scene in Argyll of, eh, community drama and //whatnot, ye know there's//
F785: //Mmhm.//
M055: there's a lot oot there, eh, things that folk dae. I mean I was even
masel away talkin tae a rotary group the other [?]night[/?]. They were
fascinated about Scots.
F785: Mmhm.
M055: Ye know, I couldnae get away fae the place afterwards for folk comin
up tae me, //ye know?//
F785: //Yep.//
M055: Eh, hadnae hadnae heard, ye know, a long talk aboot the subject and
hadnae thought aboot it //fur//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: long enough but a lot o them were Scots speakers that were there and
they were they were interested to hear aboot it so there's a tremendous
fair amount out there it's a tremendous it's a tremendous national
resource, the Scots language and its its cultural product and power and, ye
know, to have, I I think there's, I think there's something about the
Labour mind in particular, just to be anti-Labour,
F785: [laugh]
M055: that they have a thing that the working class had to get away fae aw
this vernacular speakin to get on in life, //and they think that//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: that's the be aw and end aw of, ye know, this is what ye have tae dae
to get on, ye've got tae speak proper an aw this, and it's just it's just
nonsense actually in the in the day's world. Eh, in fact Scots voices are,
appreciate the [inaudible] we we seem to be quite successful at runnin call
centres and all kinds of things. //So,//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: eh, I dinnae ken whit ails them aboot it, ye know, but they've just
got a, they're they're no comfortable with it, they've got this kinna
cringe reaction and they dinnae ken whit tae dae wi it. And they also
suspect that it's the [tut] i-i- it's it's some agenda of the Scottish
National Party's to dae this, ye know? I may say, on the National Comatee
of the eh Scots Language Society, eh, ye know, we have a Liberal activist,
we have SNP activists or or two eh, ye know, we've a life-long Labour man
that's the the preses of of the Society at the present time. And, eh, ye
know, another of our notable members is no on the Comatee at the minute is
is a Conservative activist. So, ye know, there's there's support there in
all the parties potentially, but, ye know, spending onie siller on it, that
seems to be a problem.
F785: Okay. Do you think the fact the SNP is so connected with independence
could be detrimental? I mean, there could be a lot o Scots people who want
to speak Scots but wouldn't necessarily associate themselves with //that
sort of movement.//
M055: //But the Scot- the Scots language// disnae belang the SNP.
F785: But it does have quite strong associations with it.
M055: [cough]
F785: I mean, if they're the o- if they're the only party, well one of the
very few parties with a clear policy on it then maybe people are gonna
associate it too much with ideas of independence.
M055: We'll get indepence then we'll aw speak Scots ye mean?
F785: I don't know, I mean, it's, the idea of speakin Scots is tied up very
strongly with Scottish identity an
M055: Aye, aye //I suppose it is but then//
F785: //I think some people think it's too insular// maybe to just
M055: the celebration o Scottish identity aifter devolution is shuirlie
something that should be a common a common theme for aw //political
pairties//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: active in Scotland. Eh, I mean, I d-, I d-, ye know, how long can we
go on explainin, eh, the absence of any action politically by, ye know, the
fear of of some kind of promotion of of a separatist cause? I think I think
I think that exists, but I think it's time it's time Labour got over that
an, //ye know,//
F785: //Mm//
M055: if if if Conservatives have a problem with it they get ower it an aw.
It's no just Scots, I mean, it's it's it's a certain failure to celebrate
the national history too. //Ye know,//
F785: //Mm//
M055: even to deal with the national history. Just hard by here, ye know,
ye'll, ye've the site of the Sheriffmuir battle. Ye go up there, there's
very very little to mark it other than a a monument that that was put up be
the Clan McRae Society. Yet, ye know, it was a a major battle of a major
episode, seventeen //fifteen//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: rebellion there that could have changed British political history let
alone Scots political history, hardly celebrated at aw.
F785: Can't say I've heard of it, I'm ashamed about that really.
M055: Well, ye know //[inaudible] it's a major//
F785: //Just wasn't taught it.//
M055: engagement //and eh//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: it's the sort of thing that that could could, ye know, potentially
have aboot as much resonance as as Culloden, ye know?
F785: Mmhm.
M055: But no, it's no dealt wi and, ye know, it's it's it's no just
post-seventeen oh seven ev- events that are no celebrated, ye know, the
there's a very gappy kind of approach, eh and eh, ye know, ye feel if some
o these sites were in Ireland, eh, there'd be somebody there takin siller
at the end of the road, [laugh] ye know,
F785: Yeah. [laugh]
M055: for the tourist attraction [laugh].
F785: Ehm, [tut] how do you feel about Scottish authors not being published
by Scottish publishers? [sniff] Cause so many of our big names, you know,
are not published up here.
M055: Well I suppose if ye've a big name, eh, ye want to be with a big
publisher, eh, just fae a purely financial pint o view.
F785: Mmhm
M055: Eh, ye want somebody who's efficiently gonna get your book oot there
in as big quantities, ye know //eh//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: as can be done and, eh, the big prizes like f- film richts and aw
these things will come the easier to you I //suppose.//
F785: //Mmhm.// Do you think it's disappointing though that we we do have
M055: Well, //ye know, ye ye would//
F785: //[inaudible]?//
M055: ye would hope for success for the Scottish publishin industry. Ehm it
has in the past been a huge world player as a publishin industry. //It
fell//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: back, eh, there's a few firms that that have done well, ye know,
Canongate with "The Life of Pi" has shown that ye can ye can still lead a a
bestseller tae //market,//
F785: //Mmhm//
M055: so wi a few more o them an, ye know, if if we get political support
for guid initiatives like the, Edinburgh's the, what is it, the City of
Books or whatever they're goin to cry it,
F785: Mmhm
M055: ehm, then perhaps, ye know, the publishin industry can growe again.
F785: Okay. Okay, last question. Ehm, what's your general opinion of the
Scottish Executive's arts policy, ehm, especially regarding literature and
language?
M055: Oh weel, they hivnae got yin.
F785: Okay.
M055: They hivnae got yin so I cannae hae an opinion aboot it. //[laugh]//
F785: //Okay [laugh].// I mean, do you just feel that you're like you just
try to ignore it as much as possible?
M055: I [sigh] I cannae see into their heids, eh, but I dinnae ken if I
could I I doot if there would be an awfu lot tae see //that's aw ye//
F785: //[laugh]//
M055: can conclude fae the complete absence o action.
F785: Mmhm. What about the lack of writers at the parliament opening and
Edwin Morgan being used as a photo opportunity? Mm
M055: Weel, I cudnae quantify eh, ye know, how many writers they they did
or or didnae use but eh ach it's it's been a token thing, eh, wi them, ye
know, and nae doot they've many departments of eh, ye know, Scottish civil
society tae satisfy and gie their wee minute in the the limelicht but eh,
och they they'll no keep us oot the Parliament in the in the end, ye know.
Gavin McDougall had a S- had a guid eh Scots poetry readin session in there
and, eh, I suspect that, eh, the folk'll batter their wey intae the
Parliament soon enough.
F785: Okay. Thank you very much. //Thanks.//
M055: //Thank you, thank you.//


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Audio
Audio audience
Specialists: For gender: Mixed
Audience size: 2

Audio awareness & spontaneity
Speaker awareness: Aware
Degree of spontaneity: Spontaneous

Audio footage information
Year of recording: 2004
Recording person id: 785
Size (min): 38
Size (mb): 182

Audio setting
Education: Recording venue: Private house
Geographic location of speech: Perthshire

Audio relationship between recorder/interviewer and speakers
Professional relationship: Speakers knew each other: No

Audio transcription information
Transcriber id: 631
Year of transcription: 2005
Year material recorded: 2004
Word count: 6222

Audio type
Interview: 

Participant
Participant details
Participant id: 55
Gender: Male
Decade of birth: 1950
Educational attainment: University
Age left school: 17
Upbringing/religious beliefs: Atheist
Occupation: Computer Engineer
Place of birth: Dunfermline
Region of birth: Fife
Birthplace CSD dialect area: Fif
Country of birth: Scotland
Place of residence: Blackford
Region of residence: E & SE Perthshire
Residence CSD dialect area: Per
Country of residence: Scotland
Father's occupation: Writer
Father's place of birth: Newarthill
Father's region of birth: Lanark
Father's birthplace CSD dialect area: Lnk
Father's country of birth: Scotland
Mother's occupation: Housewife
Mother's place of birth: Pretoria
Mother's country of birth: South Africa

Languages:
Language: English
Speak: Yes
Read: Yes
Write: Yes
Understand: Yes
Circumstances: 
Language: Gaelic; Scottish Gaelic
Speak: Yes
Read: Yes
Write: Yes
Understand: Yes
Circumstances: 
Language: Scots
Speak: Yes
Read: Yes
Write: Yes
Understand: Yes
Circumstances: 


Participant
Participant details
Participant id: 785