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Title    : Scottish Parliament: Committees: Equal Opportunities: Official
Reports: Meeting 2, 2003
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Text

Session 1 (2003) 
Scottish Parliament
Equal Opportunities Committee
Official Report 
Meeting No 2, 2003 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
31 January 2003 
CONTENTS

Friday 31 January 2003


EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES COMMITTEE 2ND MEETING 2003, SESSION 1
   
  Col.
 
EUROPEAN YEAR OF DISABLED PEOPLE 2003


EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES COMMITTEE
2nd Meeting 2003, Session 1

CONVENER

*Kate Maclean (Dundee West) (Lab)

DEPUTY CONVENER

Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP)

COMMITTEE MEMBERS

Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con)
*Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
*Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
*Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP)
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)

COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTES

George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)

*attended

WITNESSES

Janet Allan (Donaldson's College)
Stuart Duffin (Scottish Chambers of Commerce)
Douglas Hamilton (Barnardo's Scotland)
Iain Montgomery (Scottish Trades Union Congress)
Robert Mooney (National League of the Blind and Disabled)
James O'Rourke (Scottish National Federation for the Welfare of the Blind)

CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE

Jim Johnston

SENIOR ASSISTANT CLERK

Richard Walsh

ASSISTANT CLERK

Roy McMahon

LOCATION

Scottish Health Service Centre, Edinburgh
 
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31 January 2003 
Scottish Parliament

Equal Opportunities Committee

Friday 31 January 2003

(Morning)

[THE CONVENER opened the meeting at 10:28]
European Year of Disabled People 2003

The Convener (Kate Maclean): I welcome everyone to this meeting of the
Equal Opportunities Committee. I apologise profusely for the half-hour
delay in starting the meeting. Some members have had problems in getting
here—there have been some traffic problems. Other members will arrive. We
have received apologies from Tommy Sheridan, Elaine Smith, Jamie Stone, Kay
Ullrich and Lyndsay McIntosh.

I welcome Elspeth Attwooll, who is the Liberal Democrat member of the
European Parliament for Scotland. One of the committees of which she is a
member is the European Parliament's Employment and Social Affairs
Committee. I hope that she enjoys this meeting. I also welcome Catherine
King and Sue Mowat, who are interpreting into British Sign Language. I
remind members and witnesses of the need to speak clearly and one at a time
for the interpreters' benefit.

Last weekend, Gil Paterson attended the launch of the European year of
people with disabilities in Athens. He will report back to the committee
and to members of the public.

Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP): I inform members of the public
that I will be attempting to pronounce some Greek words. If anyone laughs,
I will have them ejected.

As committee members will be aware, I attended the opening ceremony of the
European year of people with disabilities at the Athens concert hall on
Sunday 26 January 2003. The senior assistant clerk, Richard Walsh,
accompanied me. I put on record my thanks to him for his invaluable
assistance before, during and after the event.

I hope that the committee will allow me to give a brief oral report on the
understanding that, in due course, I will provide a written report as a
public document for a future meeting of the committee.

The committee heard evidence from the Scottish steering group for the
European year of disabled people on 3 December 2002. The aims and
objectives of the Scottish steering group for the EYDP were subsequently
announced on 23 January 2003, in response to an inspired parliamentary
question—reference number S1W-33375. I have submitted a copy of the
response today as a late paper.

The Scottish steering group for the EYDP set out four main aims. The first
aim is to work towards the inclusion of all who are affected by disability
through promoting well-informed, responsive and effective decision making
in policy and practices. The second is to build for the future by seeking
to engage young people in the EYDP. The third is to raise public awareness
of disability issues and the fourth is to ensure that, where possible,
Scottish events are co-ordinated with United Kingdom-wide and European year
of people with disabilities activities.

The opening event, which was attended by about 1,500 people, was organised
jointly by the Greek Ministry of Health and Welfare and the European
Commission, with the support of the European disability forum and the Greek
National Confederation of Disabled People. The aim of the event was to
transmit all over Europe the message that people with disabilities have a
right to be accepted and to participate fully in society. The event also
represented the launch of the EYPD bus, as part of the get on board
initiative. The bus will visit the UK between 2 June and 2 July.

The address by the President of the Hellenic Parliament, Mr Apostolos
Kaklamanis, gave particular emphasis to the role of children, whom he
described as ambassadors for the EYPD. He said:

"they can educate their peers and their parents".

There was also strong emphasis on achieving full rights and participation.

The address by the Minister of Health and Welfare of the Hellenic Republic,
Mr Costas Stefanis, continued the theme of rights and participation. He
referred to the removal of barriers to social inclusion, the creation of
efficient and integrated services to assist disabled people and the
reinforcement of local societies for self-help initiatives and social
solidarity.

In her speech, the European Commissioner for Employment and Social Affairs,
Mrs Anna Diamantopoulou, reiterated the European Commission's commitment to
the removal of barriers to social inclusion and to the elimination of
discrimination and exclusion. She said that there would be three priority
areas: employment, with the requirement for qualitative outputs from any
supported schemes; assisted technology to change the lives of disabled
people; and physical access to buildings. In the last area, she mentioned a
competition between municipalities to find out which can offer best access
to citizens. She closed her speech with the thought that the

"indicator of civilisation for any society in the 21st Century will be the
standard of services which it offers to those citizens with disabilities".

It is interesting that many groups at the event had expected the
announcement of a draft horizontal directive on disability following the
Návplion informal council of European Union ministers of employment and
social affairs, which preceded the launch. That did not occur, although the
council's agreement to mainstream disability issues to allow their review
in national action plans on social inclusion was further strengthened by
the announcement a few days after the launch event that the European
Commission would from now on also seek to mainstream disability in its
policy process along the lines that have been established for gender. More
seasoned Europe watchers seem to expect that, given the European
Parliament's whole-hearted support for a horizontal disability directive,
lobbying of the European Commission may well move to ensuring a commitment
to produce such a draft directive by the end of the year rather than
production of the draft directive itself.

The president of the European disability forum delivered a rousing speech
that called for the establishment of

"two pillars of European society as a tangible heritage from the EYDP".

The first pillar was strong anti-discrimination legislation and the second
was the consistent strengthening of the rights of people with disabilities
so that there is no discussion about disabled people without their full
participation.

The concluding address by the Vice-President of the European Parliament, Mr
Guido Podesta, confirmed the main themes that were established by the
previous speakers and appeared to announce the establishment of a new civic
participation exercise—a European parliament of disabled people that will
work directly with members of the European Parliament. That appears to tie
in with the grant to the British Council of Disabled People for its United
Kingdom disabled people's parliament project.

The event then heard six deeply moving and powerful personal testimonies on
disabilities from across the European Union before a theatrical performance
by the Theatre of Tuesday, which is a mixed theatre group of the Cerebral
Palsy Association, Greece. The performance was based on the voyage home to
Ithaca by Odysseus and musical interludes were provided during the event.

Prior to the launch, I took the opportunity to have an informal but useful
discussion with Mr Bill Campbell and Sir John Wall. Bill Campbell
represents Inclusion Scotland at the UK disability forum for European
affairs and represents the organisation on the European disability forum.
Sir John Wall is vice-president of the European Blind Union, former chair
of the Royal National Institute of the Blind and a key player in the UK
disability forum for European affairs.

I will submit more details in a written report in due course. However, I
ask that the committee agree that the convener should issue letters and
represent the committee's views to the many groups that were involved,
acknowledging their hard work. Secondly, I ask the committee to agree to
address the broader issue of our scrutiny of European matters as part of
the clerks' legacy paper.

The Convener: I thank Gil Paterson. I think that I forgot to mention that
Gil is the disability reporter for the Equal Opportunities Committee. He
has asked the committee to agree that I should send letters on behalf of
the committee to acknowledge the hard work of the many groups that were
involved. Are members agreed that I should do so?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener: Michael, do you have any questions for Gil?

Mr Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab): No.

The Convener: As Gil Paterson said, the full report on the launch will be
presented to the committee and will be posted on the Equal Opportunities
Committee's website. I am sure that, if any members of the public or any
organisations that are present have any questions for Gil Paterson about
the launch, they will be most welcome to e-mail him once the report has
been posted on the website. Thank you, Gil.

Item 2 on the agenda also relates to the European year of disabled people.
We will hear evidence from two panels of witnesses. On the first panel we
have Janet Allan from Donaldson's College, Douglas Hamilton from Barnardo's
Scotland and Iain Montgomery from the Scottish Trades Union Congress. I
will not ask the witnesses to make initial statements. However, if they
want to make extended points during the lines of questioning, they are
welcome to do so.

I will kick off with a general question to everybody on the panel. Why do
we need a year of disabled people? Is that a suitable way of improving
disabled people's situation in society? Are there any concerns that this
type of showcase year might overshadow the continuing work of campaigning
for and helping people with disabilities? Anyone can kick off with a
reply.

Douglas Hamilton (Barnardo's Scotland): I will start. Thank you for
inviting us along today. I hoped that one of our service users or a member
of staff from one of our projects would be able to come. I apologise for
being unable to arrange that. I extend an invitation to committee members
to visit some of our young people during the year.

The idea of the European year of disabled people is fantastic. It will help
to provide a focus for raising awareness on several issues. Barnardo's has
been looking at issues around the participation in society of children and
young people, particularly those with disabilities, and at how those
children and young people can be given a voice in society. We have also
looked at poverty and disability issues for families who are affected by a
disabled child. We have highlighted issues of multiple discrimination,
particularly in relation to families from ethnic minorities who have a
disabled child—they could be called a minority within a minority.

Throughout the year, I hope that, because of the EYDP focus, there will be
several opportunities to raise awareness on such issues and to take matters
forward. The issues to which I referred would fall within the priorities
that the UK Government and the EYDP have set.

Janet Allan (Donaldson's College): I concur with most of what has been
said. Any raising of awareness is good, if that awareness is sufficiently
wide to cover all groups of people. I suppose that I would have liked some
young people to be represented here. When I gave evidence previously to a
parliamentary committee, I took a youngster from my school. His evidence
was infinitely more powerful than that of the professionals, who were paid
to be there, if you like.

Interestingly, when I spoke to my fifth-year and sixth-year pupils
yesterday in preparation for my coming to the committee meeting today, they
said: "What year?" News of the EYDP had not got to them. Rather than using
what is perhaps the older model of our helping young people, perhaps we
should empower young people to help themselves.

Iain Montgomery (Scottish Trades Union Congress): I agree with everything
that has been said. From our perspective, awareness is a big problem. Many
workplaces and employers seem to think that awareness raising is a gimmick,
but it must be a great deal more than that. It must be something
sustainable that addresses many issues across society.

The focus is specifically on young people. The demographics of unemployment
among disabled people show that young people in particular are affected.
They have to struggle through the education system to prepare for
employment, but they find further barriers when they seek employment. That
is true for all disabled employees and disabled potential employees.
Something important must be done in that area.

The Convener: Douglas Hamilton suggested a visit for the committee, but,
unfortunately, the committee dissolves at the end of March—that is not as
uncomfortable as it sounds. However, we are preparing a legacy paper for a
future Equal Opportunities Committee. The clerks will take a note of the
invitation and I am sure that a future committee will want to take it up.
We invited some young people to give evidence, but they were not able to
come.

Janet Allan made a point about awareness. Do the witnesses think that the
European year of disabled people has not been particularly well publicised
among organisations or the general public? What could be done at this stage
to improve awareness?

10:45

Janet Allan: I do not think that the year has been well publicised to the
people who need to know about it, although I do not know what steps have
been taken to publicise it. People watch television and youngsters go to
places such as McDonald's. I wonder whether the publicity has been too
formal to reach the people who might say, "Great, that is about me and this
is an opportunity for me to do something."

The Convener: That is an interesting point.

Douglas Hamilton: Barnardo's Scotland received money through the European
year of disabled people to run a project. However, even though I am in the
system, I was not aware of the Scottish launch until after it had happened.
I was aware of the UK launch and I was invited to it, but we did not
receive any word about the Scottish one. I admit that we must make steps to
connect with what is happening in Scotland, but, at the early stages, the
communication did not work both ways.

The Convener: Your answer pre-empts my next question. I was going to ask
what involvement the witnesses' organisations had in the preparation for
the European year of disabled people, either at a Scottish or UK level.
When the committee first discussed the matter, we were concerned to
encourage the participation of organisations that are heavily involved in
the issues.

Douglas Hamilton: We have been given around £10,000 through the European
year of disabled people for project work in three of our services. The
project encourages the participation of children and young people through
the snakes and ladders training game, which some members might have played
at party conferences. We hope to use that model to allow the views of young
people with disabilities to be heard in the wider community. The groups in
Dundee, Inverclyde and West Lothian aim to provide a safe environment in
the community for young people to tell local authorities, employers,
schools and health workers about the issues that affect them. The money
that has come through the European year of disabled people will focus on
that.

Iain Montgomery: I am fortunate because I have been involved in the
Scottish steering group for the European year of disabled people. I
disseminated information about our activities as widely as I could, but
some of the work has been limited. A classic example is that, on the day of
the launch, there was a newspaper supplement about the European year of
disabled people, but, as far as I am aware, it appeared in only one format
in one newspaper and so was not accessible to many people. The supplement
was not even in the newspaper that the Scottish steering group had been
advised it would be in, so even we were not aware of where to find out what
was happening. Moreover, the supplement was not trailed on the front of the
newspaper but hidden in the middle. I accept that it is early days, but we
clearly must do more to raise the profile.

Janet Allan: We have had no involvement.

The Convener: I have been hogging the questions, so I will let Michael
McMahon in.

Mr McMahon: Thanks, convener. I apologise for being late this morning.

Iain Montgomery touched on the business community's role and he mentioned
that it might see awareness raising as a gimmick. Has there been enough
awareness raising in the business community? Are you aware of any projects
that involved the business community and, if so, what were the benefits or
problems with those projects?

Iain Montgomery: My experience of dealing with employers has been somewhat
confrontational, which is unfortunate. One side tends to be looking for
something, while the other side is costing it. There is a lot to be said
for a partnership approach to exploring the benefits of long-term support
for disabled people who are in the workplace or trying to re-enter it. We
need to think more about partnerships than about "them" and "us". That
agenda is being taken on board quite effectively by the public and
voluntary sectors. We need to maintain that momentum.

Mr McMahon: A few years ago, I attended the launch of an initiative by the
Confederation of British Industry. The CBI had identified that it was
losing out on the potential of a large section of the community because it
was not sufficiently aware of disabled people's needs. Have you any
experience of a change of attitude in the business community, even if that
has been because of the regulatory demands on it? Has any progress been
made?

Douglas Hamilton: I shall hand that question over to Iain Montgomery.

The Convener: That is called delegation.

Iain Montgomery: There have certainly been improvements in attitude. Some
of that has been the result of regulations, but there is a growing
awareness that benefits can be gained from doing more than the minimum.

We always try to discuss the wider benefits with people. I shall give you a
specific example. In one case, we had to argue for improved access for
wheelchair users to a location. Once we had achieved that improvement, we
found that other groups using the same location, such as mothers with
prams, were also benefiting. We could then sell what we had done by saying
that it was not just about disabled access or improving things for disabled
people, but about creating a better image for the organisation that had
provided the access. The organisation could then use that image to sell
itself, which would help it to grow.

Janet Allan: We have to consider access, and what we mean by it, carefully.
For people with whom I work—most of them are profoundly deaf—access to
work is limited by access to post-school education, which enables people to
compete effectively. We get into circular arguments when young people leave
us and there is little or poor post-school support. For example, we have
observed that there is a shortage of people to train our hearing staff in
British Sign Language; we want them to be trained by deaf people, because
BSL is their language, but no courses in Scotland train deaf people to do
that work. A problem for industry is that there are not enough trained deaf
people to run courses on deaf awareness in firms that could easily employ
deaf people.

Mr McMahon: I shall change tack a little. On numerous occasions, when the
committee has discussed in general terms initiatives to promote any one of
the range of equalities, young people say, "Where do we fit into this?" Is
enough being done for young people? Are they being represented in the
initiatives that you mention? Specifically, how does the EYDP assist young
people and what sort of representation do young people have generally in
disability groups?

Douglas Hamilton: A couple of years ago, I was involved in some research
that examined the participation of children and young people generally
throughout Scotland. Three groups of young people who were not
participating in existing structures were highlighted. They were children
from ethnic minorities, very young children and children with disabilities.
There have been attempts to find ways of working with children and young
people with disabilities, such as those with communication difficulties and
learning disabilities, to enable them to participate. The organisation
Children in Scotland has been carrying out a project on that issue, which
will also be a focus for our work this year.

From my experience with disability organisations and young people, I have
found that young people often do not seem to have a significant voice in
disability communities. I hope that we will improve that situation this
year. The reason why they have not had a significant voice is because
traditionally most disability organisations do not have a focus on children
and young people. Although organisations such as Capability Scotland and
Enable, with which we work closely, have been leading a lot of that kind of
work, there is no structure in place. I hope that one will emerge during
the year.

Janet Allan: Government has to make the legislation that it introduces in
relation to disabled people accessible to the disabled person. This week, I
asked a profoundly deaf, sign-reading sixth-year pupil who was going to a
university for an exam whether the university had arranged for an
interpreter. He said that he did not know, as his letter did not say. I
told him to contact the university to tell it that he required one, but he
said that it would not listen. I told him that the Disability
Discrimination Act 1995 requires it to provide one. Enabled by the
knowledge of the law, he was much more confident and I hope that he has
told the university that the bill for the interpreter should go to it, not
to him. The point is that he did not know what his rights were. Government
must ensure that legislation is understood by the people whom it affects.

Mr McMahon: We know the good work that Capability Scotland and Enable do,
but do young people feel that they can engage with national organisations?
Can they get involved and ensure that their voices will be heard by such
groups?

Iain Montgomery: That is a challenge. In the trade union movement, a lot of
work is done to encourage young people to become more involved, but the
initial visual impact of national organisations, particularly the trade
union movement, is of a lot of old fuddy-duddies who have been around for
years. Young people cannot see the relevance of such organisations, but it
is important that they do. We need to make them aware of the fact that the
organisations are not only relevant to them now, but will continue to be so
as they grow up and mature.

Mr McMahon: As a former chair of the Scottish Trades Union Congress youth
committee and now a fuddy-duddy, I can sympathise with what you are saying.
The problem that you talk about can mean that children do not have access
to the mechanisms that allow their voices to be heard.

One of the focuses of the European year of disabled people is to build
links. What can be done to enhance the links between groups at a national
level and an international level?

Douglas Hamilton: A lot of disabled people and young people are not
involved in groups. Within Barnardo's, we have seven dedicated services
that work with children with physical or learning disabilities. However, we
would not be seen as one of the groups that you are talking about. There is
a responsibility on organisations such as ours to try to provide links
where we have them at other levels. We have to reach out to children and
young people where they are and enable existing structures to make
themselves accessible to those children and young people.

Mr McMahon: Will the European initiative enhance what we already have or
kick-start something that people have been looking for for a long time?

Douglas Hamilton: To an extent, we are looking for things that we can get
going—a lot of national work is being done in relation to that, although
it is at an early stage. As Janet Allan said, we have to get the message
out to children and young people that they can get involved and we have to
provide them with opportunities to do so. That would be a positive outcome
from the European year of disabled people.

Janet Allan: There is also a large group of children and young people who,
realistically, will not be able to have an influence themselves, and their
parents will be important as their mouthpiece. For the parents I deal with,
one of the great difficulties is finance; they cannot work because there is
no specialist child care. Another problem is simply getting their act
together, because there are so many people to see. To empower parents, we
need better child care and facilities for specific things, such as getting
tuned into any of the initiatives that their children need help with. That
would help.

11:00

Mr McMahon: I am sure that we will take that on board.

Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab): One of the objectives is to raise
awareness of the multiple discrimination that faces people with
disabilities. How do you feel that the issues of multiple discrimination
are being addressed, if at all, and what changes would you like to result
from this year's activities?

Douglas Hamilton: Reference has already been made to our Apna project in
Glasgow, which involves working with children with disabilities from ethnic
minorities. As far as I am aware, the project is one of very few such
services in Scotland, if not the only one. It is certainly the only project
in Glasgow that has that focus. I was speaking to the service manager
earlier this week and discovered that there are plans afoot to increase the
service. There are bilingual workers who provide an appropriate and
culturally aware service, but there is now a waiting list.

We have heard of people moving from one side of Glasgow down to the south
side, simply because that is the only place where they can access such a
service. That does not seem right to me. The service manager was talking
about people changing their jobs and giving up their businesses to move
across Glasgow and access a service for which they now find themselves on a
waiting list. There is clearly an issue surrounding service provision for
that group, and we hope that that will be highlighted throughout the year.

Iain Montgomery: I wholly support that. We were discussing a colleague who
is taking up a position with Scottish Women's Aid, which provides a service
for disabled women and women with disabled children who are looking for
refuge. That sort of facility is unique. There is a tendency for society to
put people into categories, and if someone crosses over one or more
categories society finds it difficult to accept the issues or to realise
what they are. We must be far more aware of dual discrimination and how we
can address it.

Cathy Peattie: The Madrid declaration recommends that local authorities
should draft plans of action on disability in co-operation with local
representatives and organisations, so that they can spearhead activities in
their communities. Do you feel that that would be a constructive way
forward? If so, how could people work more closely with local authorities?
We are concerned that those very people do not have information, so perhaps
that would be better addressed at local level. It is important that local
authorities are proactive, but how do we encourage them to be proactive?

Janet Allan: It would depend on which branches of local
authorities—social work, education and so on—you were dealing with.
When I think of multiple discrimination, I think of young infants who have
no access to services. Disabled parents of disabled children have been
mentioned. We have a wee one in school who was not picked up by any service
until her mother went into Department of Health and Social Security
bed-and-breakfast accommodation with five children, including that child,
who had very complex needs. We load discrimination on discrimination as
those babies become children, then adults, and more and more opportunities
are missed. Education starts at three, but we need to provide services
earlier than that, perhaps through health departments.

Cathy Peattie: You are talking about delivery through education or through
health. Do you agree that, with local authority plans, we should be looking
at mainstreaming and working across departments? It is too easy to pass
issues relating to disabilities to the social work department, for
instance, when they could involve everything from planning to education to
housing. All departments that deliver services to communities need to be
aware of the services that they need to deliver to people with
disabilities.

Janet Allan: I would not argue with that. Joined-up thinking in local
authorities is important, but there is a danger that the departments create
a superstructure of industry, in which they talk to each other yet the
actual delivery to the person who needs the service does not happen,
because the structure is so complex and it is not clear who takes
responsibility.

Cathy Peattie: That was my point. How do local authorities then engage with
their communities and with local voluntary organisations?

Iain Montgomery: Local authorities already do some very good work in this
area, and some of it is joined up. That work is about engaging with groups
of disabled people or people who are discriminated against and involving
them in the process. Children's services plans, which already exist in
local authorities, are quite a good model, because they involve a full
range of departments, but they also involve the people who ultimately
benefit from the services that are provided. Again, it is about profile and
awareness. It is about letting groups and individuals know that the
opportunity exists, and making the opportunity accessible to them in terms
of communication and physical access, and ensuring that their views are
taken on board and that they drive the agenda.

Douglas Hamilton: I agree. Children's services plans are probably the
logical place to start, because children with disabilities should be
counted in those plans as children in need. Services plans are supposed to
be corporate documents anyway, so that is the logical route. New structures
do not need to be created. We should ensure that those plans work
effectively.

I agree that many local authorities are already working in partnership and
are doing good work. That just needs to be enhanced across Scotland. When
we consider some of the funding streams that are becoming available, such
as the changing children's services fund, let us ensure that money is
dedicated for services for disabled children and young people. If money is
available, that will focus local authorities' attention and ensure that
something gets done.

Cathy Peattie: As an MSP, most complaints that I get from parents are from
those who have younger children with special educational needs. They
complain that local authorities never listen to them and that they feel
excluded from such plans. How can we encourage local authorities and others
to listen to those parents?

Douglas Hamilton: Without beating them with a stick?

Cathy Peattie: I do not care what we beat them with.

Douglas Hamilton: We hope that the provisions in the draft education
(additional support for learning) (Scotland) bill to allow a supportive
person to be alongside will go some way to addressing those concerns and
will place more focus on listening to those people who are affected.

Janet Allan: Sometimes there are issues with the parents of disabled
children in that they want specific education services for their children,
but the authority, which is the provider and is responsible for paying,
turns them down for one reason or another. If the parents want to appeal,
they appeal to the authority, and find themselves going round in circles.
For every one child who comes to us, we probably have three parents who
would say, "We were not listened to." Choice should be available, but it is
not, and because the appeal body is the local authority, the parents go
round in circles.

Cathy Peattie: My background is in the voluntary sector, and I am reminded
of the many years with this or that theme, or the flavour of the month or
the flavour of that year, and everyone getting really excited that this
would be the year to challenge a particular issue. How do we ensure that
this year's flavour of the year does not disappear to make room for next
year's flavour of the year? How do we ensure sustainability on issues
relating to disability? How do we ensure that some of the issues that have
been raised or are starting to be raised this year are kept on the agenda?

Douglas Hamilton: I can think of a number of ways to ensure that. Indeed,
it is a shame that the Equal Opportunities Committee will be dissolving
soon. Hopefully, those issues could be covered in your legacy paper and it
would then be a matter of continuing the work that is being done now. You
could set goals and call for certain things to be achieved by the end of
the year. In relation to the participation of children and young people,
for example, you could aim to have the structures, or at least the plans,
in place by the end of the year for that to happen in the future.

It is important that we remain targeted on the issues. If there are issues
around multiple discrimination, for example, let us set out what we want to
achieve, say by the end of the year. Ideally, we want Government to commit
to developing services and to making funding available. If we can raise
awareness on those issues and give more people a voice with which to speak
directly on the things that affect them, that will raise awareness. We can
then put things into action.

We have to sustain things throughout the year. We should be looking towards
the end of the year and deciding what we would like to have been achieved
by the end of December. If we do not do that, things could end up fizzling
out, so a plan needs to be in place. I have not been involved so much with
the steering group, and I do not know what its plans are, but I hope that
there will be something there.

Iain Montgomery: There are certainly plans. There is also the more cynical
approach, whereby we ensure that we engage people's self-interest. At the
launch of the year, we heard a very good presentation from an employee of
B&Q, who spoke about the benefits to her employer of being more disabled
aware and disabled accessible. If it is possible to engage people in that
way, that will maintain the momentum and ensure that people keep their
interest after the European year and the pat on the head, and after all the
bunting has gone back in the box. It is important to view people's actions
as positive: it is not just about having to do things, but about wanting to
do them.

Mr Paterson: How will we be able to tell whether we have achieved the aims
of the European year of disabled people? I will throw another question on
top of that, for people to think about. I have deliberately used the
acronym "EYDP" in my report. Using the acronym might seem like using
shorthand, or being lazy, but does the use of "EYDP" instead of "European
year of disabled people" in full make the year more sexy and highlight it
better? If I am lazy and use the acronym—I will do so if I know that I am
talking to people who know about it—am I missing out some folk, or does
it encourage people to take note of the year?

To go back to my first question, how do we judge whether we have been
successful?

Janet Allan: The targets that are set need to be measurable. When targets
are set for the end of the year—as Douglas Hamilton was describing—it
is important that we know what the measure of success will be.

I would guess that about 90 per cent of the population would not know what
you were talking about if you mentioned EYDP. This touches on what Iain
Montgomery said about self-interest. It would be good to have some sort of
title that would give people a feeling that they have a right to get
something—something with a "Get in there and take what's yours" feel to
it. Those who most need Government benefits are often the ones who do not
get them. I have a horrible feeling that the same thing could happen in
this case if we do not get to where the people are.

Iain Montgomery: We should be slightly cautious, in so far as some of the
measures of success will not be apparent over the 12 months. If the
successes are truly to be long term, some of them will not become apparent
immediately. We need to let people know that, so that they are not
disheartened if, at the end of 12 months, they do not see a fundamental
change in society, in the public sector or voluntary sector or wherever. We
should set milestones rather than targets, and we should build on those.
One of the things that we should ask at the end of the year is what we are
going to do next. We should remind ourselves at the end of the year that
the work is not finished, and we should keep it going.

Mr Paterson: Do you expect a difference to develop from what is,
effectively, a pan-European campaign?

Iain Montgomery: I would like more disabled people to become involved
locally. I would like them to realise that what is involved is not just
some groups of people speaking for them; they can speak for themselves and
become involved locally, then feed their views through those structures. I
have always been guilty of thinking that there is just me and that I am all
alone. If we use a pan-European campaign properly, people will become
involved and will feel stronger for doing so.

11:15

Mr Paterson: Janet Allan spoke about targets. What targets should we aim
for? That question is open to everybody.

Janet Allan: I agree with Iain Montgomery that a target is not the end
point. Targets should cover the inclusion of young people in decision
making. How many young disabled people were involved in the conception of
the year? Is it what they wanted? Is it the best way to do what they want?
I have no idea how the Scottish steering group works, so it is hard for me
to specify targets, but the people whom the year is about should be
involved in the decision making on it.

Mr Paterson: Is the year an opportunity for a wider discussion on the
definition of disability?

Iain Montgomery: Yes, very much so. The experience is personal. Finding an
all-inclusive form of words will be difficult, but the current legalistic
form of words is also a difficulty. My trade union is unhappy with that
wording and feels that it excludes as many people as it includes. However
many amendments are made, people will always be excluded. Rather than legal
protection, we should talk about full civil rights, which are the subject
of a long-standing campaign that will continue and could run in parallel
with the European year of disabled people. We need to consider rights and
civic involvement.

Douglas Hamilton: As an outsider on such issues, I sometimes feel that it
is best not to spend all our time focusing on definitions and that we
should recognise needs. Whatever definition is used, the children and young
people in question have needs. How do we meet those needs? Regardless of
the labels that are attached, I would rather that we raised awareness of
those needs, took action to provide services where they are not provided
and listened where we do not listen. Sometimes, matters such as definitions
can be a distraction from people's needs.

Mr Paterson: Do any objectives miss a target or have we missed out any
objectives?

Douglas Hamilton: In the UK's objectives or in the European objectives?

Mr Paterson: Both, but I suppose that what is happening in Scotland and the
UK is more important.

Douglas Hamilton: I highlight poverty issues, although they are probably
included in the objectives. Poverty is a great need that could be addressed
this year. The report that we published last year and sent to all MSPs
highlighted the impact on a family of having a disabled child. It can cost
three times as much to raise a child with a disability as it costs to raise
a child without a disability. A family with a disabled child is less likely
to be in work, and Government policies make work the route out of poverty.
Because of the condition of a child, work is not an option in many
families. How do we deal with that? We need to grapple with such issues.

If we are committed to reducing the level of child poverty and to
eradicating poverty within a generation, we should tackle it. During the
year, we should highlight the fact that a group is massively excluded from
many of the policies that try to deal with those issues.

Mr Paterson: Is that where the Scottish Parliament can make the
difference?

Douglas Hamilton: I hope so. Obviously, the Parliament does not have much
power over issues related to benefits and social security. However, we have
raised issues about the lack of specialist child care that is available for
families who have disabled children. The Scottish Parliament could make a
difference on issues such as housing adaptations and service provision.

The Convener: Douglas Hamilton and Janet Allan have talked about the lack
of participation of young disabled people in planning and structures such
as the Scottish steering group. It occurs to me that, when my daughter and
son were young, I would have been vaguely worried about them sitting on
steering groups and being involved in committees that were planning things
to do with Government initiatives—or anything at all, for that matter. If
they had come home and said that they would be sitting on a steering group,
I would have been vaguely worried. Would such participation put terrible
responsibility and pressure on disabled young people that perhaps they do
not want? Is there a desire among disabled young people to be involved in
planning at that stage? Would they prefer—as do a lot of younger
people—that adults talked to them and took on board their points of view?
I suspect that my kids would not have wanted such pressure.

Douglas Hamilton: I do not particularly want to sit on planning committees
and I would not expect any child or young person to want to do that. I do
not think that we have said that the young people should be members of the
committees; we want to ensure that their views are heard when the
committees make decisions and that things are being done appropriately for
them. One of my big bugbears about the participation of children and young
people is that it must be fun and the activity must be good.

It is quite daunting for me to sit in front of a committee such as this and
I certainly would not want to put a child or young person through the
experience. We will try to find ways to make participation fun and
enjoyable in our planned snakes and ladders project. The end result of such
participation is that we will be able to feed the views of children and
young people into the decision-making structures and ensure that their
views have been taken into account. Often, we ask young people questions,
get their views and say, "Thank you very much," before we carry on anyway.

Janet Allan: I agree with Douglas Hamilton to a large extent. I do not
think that the young people want to be on committees.

We had persuaded some MSPs to come to the school to discuss an issue with
us in the early evening. When I told some of the older resident kids that
we were really lucky to get those people to come to the school, they said,
"Aw, but what about the football?" That is what you expect from kids.
However, they also said, "Will you tell them that we want A, B, C and D?"
There must be avenues through which young people can get their voices
heard. Most young people just want the result. We are guilty, as a nation,
of failing to respect our young people; we take evidence from them and do
not bother to tell them what has happened with it.

We talked about the national debate on education. The information that came
out of that debate is readable by some of us, under duress, but it is not
accessible to most of us and it is certainly not accessible to young
people. Some feedback and interaction with young people would be useful.

The Convener: Thank you very much. That has clarified that matter.

I thank the witnesses for coming to give evidence to the committee. The
result of the evidence session will be included in the legacy paper that we
leave for the next Equal Opportunities Committee.

I suspend the meeting for a couple of minutes to allow for the changeover
of witnesses.

11:23

Meeting suspended.

11:25

On resuming—

The Convener: I reconvene the meeting and welcome Stuart Duffin from
Scottish Chambers of Commerce, Robert Mooney from the National League of
the Blind and Disabled and Jim O'Rourke from the Scottish National
Federation for the Welfare of the Blind. We had hoped to take evidence from
the Minority Ethnic Learning Disability Initiative, but we have received
apologies from its representative.

We will go straight to questions. As the witnesses have the advantage of
having seen the previous evidence session, they will know what to expect. I
will begin with a general question. Why do we need a year of disabled
people? Is it the way to improve the situation of disabled people or any
other specific group in society? Furthermore, will it have any positive
effect or will it somehow overshadow the work and initiatives that are
already going on?

Stuart Duffin (Scottish Chambers of Commerce): As far as the business
community is concerned, such a year is important for raising awareness. We
need to build up knowledge, skills and understanding within the business
community and across the range of initiatives that involve employees,
employers and customers. Raising awareness throughout the business
community would be a key outcome of such a year; it is certainly an
achievable and laudable target.

Robert Mooney (National League of the Blind and Disabled): Many media
issues concern disabled people. Even if all that the European year of the
disabled does is open up forums in which such issues can be discussed, that
will be a major step forward.

James O'Rourke (Scottish National Federation for the Welfare of the Blind):
It is important to have a European year of disabled people; however, it is
more important that, once the year is over, we do not have wait until the
next year of disabled people for more positive steps to be made. We must
ensure that the message gets through to business, employers, employees,
education and benefits organisations that disabled people are out there and
must be respected as much as anyone else in the community.

The Convener: What is your response to my question about publicity, which I
asked the previous panel of witnesses? Are people in general aware that
this is the European year of the disabled, or is it mainly the people in
this room who have an interest in the issue? If the people whom we really
need to make aware of this event are not aware of it, what more can be done
to publicise it and to make people realise what we are trying to do?

Stuart Duffin: For a start, one has to ask where the business
representation on the steering group is and, indeed, how we can raise the
business community's profile in all the key issues. I speak this morning on
behalf of Scottish Chambers of Commerce; however, in my day job, I am chief
executive of West Lothian Chamber of Commerce, which has been trying to
raise awareness with employers and business through developing links and
working with key voluntary sector agencies. By doing so, we hope to develop
a toolkit for the small to medium-sized enterprise sector. Such links and
the promotion of issues locally are helping to raise awareness, but we are
talking about more of a bottom-up approach than a national campaign.

The Convener: Is awareness being raised of the fact that disabled people
have money to spend and that businesses should therefore be made more
accessible to disabled people, or is awareness being raised in terms of
disabled people needing to earn money so that they can spend it? Has
awareness been raised among employers about the importance of being good
employers?

Stuart Duffin: Awareness is being raised about both. Business is beginning
to recognise that there is an untapped market of customers out there. Let
us again take the West Lothian example: the retail sector in West Lothian,
especially in Livingston, which is a new town, has the Almondvale shopping
centre and the McArthurGlen designer outlet centre. Those are large retail
regional outlets that are on the level. It is interesting to look at those
developments in relation to the increase in disabled customers that has
resulted from the retail community developing its awareness.

There is also an issue in terms of the economic drivers, in that there is a
wealth of talent among people with disabilities. If we are turning
Scotland's economy round from being a manufacturing economy to an economy
that is based on knowledge and service to people, there is a key issue in
considering the talent of people with disabilities who can add to that
knowledge economy.

11:30

Robert Mooney: I work with Glasgow City Council, and I have been
disappointed that the EYDP has not been publicised more within the council.
It could have included such information it in its monthly magazine or on
the notice boards that it has all over the place. Those would be ideal
places to publicise the year. I also feel that we should be publicising it
to children through education and the schools, in order to raise their
awareness.

James O'Rourke: I am retired and I feel that the issue has not been
publicised enough through the media of television, radio, newspapers and
advertisements. As a blind person, I feel that the year could also have
been publicised more through talking newspapers.

Mr McMahon: My question is primarily for Stuart Duffin, but Robert Mooney
and James O'Rourke may comment. You heard me earlier asking about
initiatives in the business community; I mentioned one that the CBI kicked
off a few years ago. What is your interpretation of the success of that
initiative? Can you give us any examples of other initiatives that have
been used by the business community to attract people with disabilities
into the work force and to meet their needs?

Stuart Duffin: The CBI initiative was successful for a period, but that
success was not sustained. A number of good outcomes could have been
achieved if additional support had been given to the initiative, which
could have embedded itself in good employment practice. One of the
initiatives that we are considering in relation to disability in the work
force is to encourage it to be seen as part of the corporate social
responsibility agenda; we want to marry those two elements as a key policy
directive for business.

There are three issues: first, we must consider the workplace. I will use
the West Lothian example again. About 16,500 people in West Lothian are on
some form of incapacity benefit. That is a huge pool of people to be
exploited—I use the word in its best sense—both as consumers and as
potential employees. A variety of initiatives work through the new deal;
through connecting people with disabilities to potential jobs and through
Scottish Enterprise's academies projects, which provide skills for
particular sectors such as the health care sector, the retail sector or
whatever. There are mainstream initiatives that disabled people should be
able to access and develop.

There is potential on the consumer side for business to exploit disabled
people—people need to be able to buy goods. The e-commerce debate is
developing and the development of online buying is also a key initiative
that we need to begin to exploit in relation to people with disabilities.

Mr McMahon: Do James O'Rourke or Robert Mooney want to comment on any
initiatives?

James O'Rourke: As far as online buying is concerned, more companies should
try to make their websites more friendly to visually impaired people, so
that they can use them. There are websites from which visually impaired
people can buy online without a problem, but there are many websites that
are not visual-impairment friendly.

Mr McMahon: I have a specific point for Stuart Duffin. I know in general
terms that the business community would like education authorities to
ensure that the people who come through the education system are ready for
employers to take advantage of at the end of the day. However, do you think
that the education authorities are aware of the needs of young people with
disabilities in ways that allow them, at the end of their schooling, to
enter the work force on equal terms with their peers?

Stuart Duffin: There is an issue about capacity building in terms of young
people with disabilities—for example, in building their confidence to go
into the workplace, which is a new environment in which they are different
from their workmates. There is an issue about education of the work force.
Our terminology refers to the education of the work force for diverse work
forces, so that people and work colleagues can understand the needs of
disabled people. There is a multilayered need for education and awareness
development that simply does not exist among businesses or employees.

Mr McMahon: Do you think that education as it stands is geared to ensuring
that young people come into the work force prepared in any way for such
diversity?

Stuart Duffin: No.

Robert Mooney: It is obvious that education is important in people
eventually becoming employed. I think that most people know that a disabled
person is twice as likely not to have any formal certificates when they
leave school. I hope, and believe, that that is beginning to change. My son
goes to a unit for the visually impaired within Penilee Secondary School.
He has gone through the whole mainstream education system. Three pupils who
attended the visually impaired unit left school last year and all have got
university places—the situation is improving. The majority of children
who left school the previous year got university places, so I hope that the
situation is beginning to change through that. That is only one example,
but I hope that it is being mirrored throughout the country.

Cathy Peattie: My point is on the issue of accessibility to jobs. Robert
Mooney is right that more and more young people with disabilities are going
to university. I have a young local constituent who is an honours graduate
who is hard of hearing, and he is finding it difficult to get Scottish
Enterprise to understand and to help him to fund a postgraduate course in
information technology. He feels that he could develop his career.

How can we break down such barriers? That young man is a bright and
enthusiastic honours graduate. How can he break down barriers and convince
people that he is worth investing in and that, if he is given the
opportunity, he will be an excellent employee? People sign up to many
initiatives and say, "Let's do that—it will be wonderful," but the
reality is sometimes that they do not do what they signed up to do. How can
we change things? Can the European year of disabled people help?

Stuart Duffin: The development of potential must be put on the agenda and
sold to people. We need to break down the physical and social barriers that
exist and we must develop the skills and potential of young disabled
people. We must also consider what type of economic structure we want in
Scotland. We talk frequently about social inclusion, but we should also
consider economic inclusion as part of that agenda. Perhaps local economic
forums have a key role to play in taking forward that economic inclusion
agenda; they aim to move the economy forward and employees or potential
employees are a key element of that process.

Mr McMahon: I asked the other witnesses whether they believe that young
people's voices are being heard in a way that enables them to gain access
to the services that they require within the witnesses' organisations, to
the representation that they need and to links with other organisations.
Will the European year of disabled people assist in improving matters?

James O'Rourke: Young disabled people must be encouraged to speak their
minds and that encouragement should start at school. They must not feel
overawed by their able-bodied counterparts, but should be encouraged to
discuss what they want out of life and how they would like to get it. The
previous panel of witnesses mentioned young disabled people not wanting to
sit on planning committees, but there should be a structure in which young
people can speak to local forums, which could then bring their ideas
forward. As young disabled people grow more confident, their involvement
can be encouraged. There are many clever disabled people out there. I have
worked in supportive employment all my life and there have been many
opportunities to develop potential. We need to be more aware of the needs
of young disabled people.

Stuart Duffin: The issue is about getting beyond the usual suspects, which
is difficult. However, there are a couple of initiatives in Scotland. The
Scottish Youth Parliament could be a good vehicle for developing the debate
about young people, disability and access. We are all aware that the
elections are approaching; the Hansard Society Scotland is running mock
elections in schools and, in the European year of disabled people, such
elections are a very good vehicle for young people to drive the agenda on
particular election issues.

Robert Mooney: Confidence is one of the most important things for disabled
people, including disabled children. It is important to try to build
confidence; that can be done by integrating children at nursery school
level. If disabled children are integrated at that stage, it helps raise
their confidence and it is important in helping able-bodied children to
accept disabled people. I went to a school for partially sighted children
and was taken right out of the community. The school was miles from where I
lived and my disabled friends went to schools all over the city.
Integration is really important for building confidence.

11:45

Cathy Peattie: One of this year's key objectives is to raise awareness of
the multiple discrimination that people with disabilities face. How is that
being addressed? What changes would you like to result from the year's
activities?

Stuart Duffin: In general terms, I would like the disability agenda's
becoming a firm part of the community planning agenda being a key outcome
of the year, which would give the agenda a sense of longevity. There must
also be engagement with local groups. The best way to embed any idea or
policy change is to get people talking about it, regardless of the medium.
It is very positive that we are beginning to talk about the issue this
year.

James O'Rourke: I have a multidisabled, visually impaired boy and I would
say that there is more awareness in this area now. In particular, a lot of
good work is being done with visually impaired people with multiple
disabilities through the Royal National Institute for the Blind in
Scotland.

Cathy Peattie: I am interested in your opinion on the suitability of any
key messages to do with awareness raising that should be conveyed over the
year. Which are the important issues to raise, and how do we do that?

Robert Mooney: The most important issues are employment, education and
integration. Forums such as the committee are important. The matter is
about getting together with different organisations, including national
Government, local authorities and voluntary organisations. We should use
this year in particular to get together and talk.

Stuart Duffin: I agree. I add that one of the key messages that needs to be
conveyed from the business community's point of view is the message about
developing potential. That is about reducing employee turnover and
instilling the attitude that people with disabilities are good employees.
Keeping good employees is key to the economics of business these days. The
corporate social responsibility agenda is also about enhancing industry's
corporate reputation, which is a key element that we could achieve this
year. The type of business that we want to see in Scotland will determine
the sustainability of our economy.

James O'Rourke: I agree with that. We must ensure that consumers and
businesses realise that disabled people are good employees and that they
can work, provided that facilities exist for them, which does not always
mean paying a lot to enable access or to change things around to make it
possible for people to work in a certain environment.

Cathy Peattie: The Madrid declaration recommends that local authorities
have draft plans of action on disability and that they work with
representatives of local organisations to help to develop those plans and
find ways forward. Do you feel that local authorities are able to engage
with organisations and individuals with an interest in disability?

Stuart Duffin: That goes back to the point about being more heavily
involved in the community planning process and having disability as a key
agenda item for the modernisation of local government. Local authorities
are beginning to consider area co-ordination teams and to develop joint
centres, such as for health and Jobcentre Plus, to create an integrated,
connected approach. That is key.

Cathy Peattie: How do you ensure that local authorities are not just paying
lip service to an idea? Sometimes people have wonderful plans relating to
disability, but the voices of people with disabilities have not been heard
in the making of those plans. Local authorities have sometimes been guilty
of that. I would be interested in what James or Robert think about ensuring
that their voices are heard.

James O'Rourke: You are probably right. Local authorities throughout
Scotland are going up hills and down dales as far as disability is
concerned. I have been asked by the organisation that I am representing
today to become involved in two local authority task groups on the visually
impaired. One is making significant progress, whereas the other seems to be
bogged down. People tell me that there are no services at all in some
areas; when they ask why, they are told that it is all down to money.

Robert Mooney: Local authorities are striving to improve their
relationships with voluntary organisations, and there are one or two good
initiatives. However, I feel strongly that the way forward for local
authorities in disability awareness is for them to employ more disabled
people.

Cathy Peattie: Absolutely.

Mr Paterson: How will we know whether the European year of disabled people
has fulfilled its aims?

James O'Rourke: I hope that whatever we bring forward this year continues
next year and the following year. As I said at the beginning, we need to
ensure that we are not here in three, four or 10 years' time saying exactly
the same things that we are saying today. We held a conference on
rehabilitation training for the sensory impaired at which we heard
rehabilitation officers saying what rehabilitation officers had said 20
years ago. It is important that the agenda moves forward.

Stuart Duffin: It is key that we make links across the sectors. Today's
evidence is a testament to that, given that Scottish Chambers of Commerce
has given evidence on European year of disabled people. A successful
outcome for the European year of disabled people would be the establishment
of sustainable links.

Robert Mooney: As I said earlier, it is important that voluntary
organisations, national Government and local government talk together. I
hope that if that is achieved this year, it will continue for years to
come.

Mr Paterson: Do you anticipate that that will help to make a difference,
particularly for your own organisations or groups?

Robert Mooney: My organisation is the National League of the Blind and
Disabled, which is a division of another trade union—we amalgamated only
recently. We will raise awareness of the issues faced by disabled people
within the trade union, and that will help.

James O'Rourke: I hope that this year's Scottish National Federation for
the Welfare of the Blind conference, the theme of which was the European
year of disabled people, raised the profile of disabled people. We have
also set up a rehabilitation sub-group to consider the services that
rehabilitation workers give clients. We are considering those services from
the point of view of the employee, the client and the employer. We hope to
be able to produce some proposals that we will advance through our contacts
in the Parliament.

We took a Loughborough University transport survey to Lothian Buses'
Portobello bus station last week, in order to look at various destinations
and numbers on buses from the point of view of visually impaired people,
although able-bodied and other disabled people were there too. We examined
destination boards and how easy it is to identify destinations and numbers.
We hope that we can move whatever proposals we produce on to next year and
that we keep on moving forward.

Stuart Duffin: One key hope for the year is the development of an
information hub of everybody who has been doing something in the European
year of disabled people, so that the information and connections are
available for any organisation or business that wants to take a step up the
learning curve. It is often difficult, particularly for small businesses,
to make such leaps, and having the information available is part and parcel
of the year.

Mr Paterson: I was going to ask whether you thought that setting targets
was appropriate, but it is implicit that all three of you have already set
some targets. Should the Scottish Parliament set targets? If so, what type
of targets should we set?

Stuart Duffin: We are not necessarily setting targets but outcomes—there
is a subtle difference between them. If we set targets, we almost set
ourselves up for failure, because circumstances might mean that we might
not achieve them.

From the business community's point of view, particular issues would be,
for example, considering a percentage increase over the year in the number
of people with disabilities in the workforce or in self-employment. Those
are specific, achievable goals. Another really useful, achievable outcome
would be an increase in the use of the toolkit for small and medium-sized
enterprises, to enable them to take a step up the learning curve.

James O'Rourke: I would like the Scottish Parliament to examine the
services that local authorities give disabled people, which often help to
get disabled persons into employment. I speak for the visually impaired,
but I include all the disabled in what I say. The visually impaired need
rehabilitation training—mobility training using a long cane or a guide
dog. That training is most important for getting visually impaired people
into employment but it is also important for life in general.

The Parliament must examine the local authorities that plead poverty, why
they plead poverty and what can be done to help them and the other local
authorities that seem to be getting on with the job. As I said, it is a
case of going up hill and down dale throughout Scotland.

Robert Mooney: I agree with Stuart Duffin. We should not create targets
that we might not meet, but we have certain aims, such as more employment
for disabled people and a better deal in the education of our disabled
children.

Mr Paterson: So perhaps the definition is to do with goals rather than
targets.

Would you say that this is a particularly good year to open up a wider
discussion on the definition of disability?

12:00

James O'Rourke: Yes, I think so. I think that any year is a good year, but
this year in particular is a good opportunity to do that. What everybody
should realise is that disability can come to anybody's door at any time.
It can come when somebody is born or through illness or accident. A lot of
people shy away from disability. You may remember the BBC programme, "Does
He Take Sugar?" Many a time, as my disabled colleagues know, somebody will
speak over your head to the person who is with you without consulting you
at all. If this is the year when we can really raise the profile of
disability, let us do it.

Stuart Duffin: This year is a particularly good year, given that there is
an election looming—people with disabilities do vote.

Mr Paterson: Let me write that down.

Are there any glaring examples of things that have been missed out, which
we should really pick up the cudgels for in Scotland?

Robert Mooney: There is something that we spoke about earlier in relation
to access. Access to buildings is obviously important, as is access to
reading material for blind people, but it is also important to educate the
staff of Government departments and national companies. Access is not just
about getting into a building. If I, as a visually impaired person, go into
a pub for a pub meal and the menu is written only on a blackboard, I cannot
access that information. I can ask a member of staff what is available, and
if they read out the menu for me then the accessibility is there and that
is fine, but if the member of staff says, "Sorry. I don't have the time.
I'm really busy," that becomes a problem. Training is important.

Stuart Duffin: I would like to comment on integration and on understanding
and awareness of disabilities in the curriculum. We have mentioned the
curriculum and, in particular, the key role of civic education in schools
in focusing on the broad disability agenda. Initiatives with the business
community can also help to support awareness of disability in small and
medium-sized enterprises.

Cathy Peattie: There has been—quite rightly—discussion about business
having the toolkit to be able to provide appropriate support for work
placements. There are also issues about training. Do you agree that the
best people to provide awareness training are groups who have an interest
in disability, rather than people who have no experience? Do voluntary
sector disability groups have a key role to play, and should they be
resourced to do some of that work?

Stuart Duffin: That is vital. We cannot all be good at everything, so we
need some areas of specialism. That is a key element in developing a
partnership role between the voluntary, public and private sectors in
delivering awareness training. In West Lothian, we work with Into Work in
delivering and supporting disability initiatives for employees. That
partnership needs to be strengthened and facilitated.

The Convener: I think that Gil Paterson has a short final question.

Mr Paterson: As much for my own benefit as for anyone else's, I want to
take a straw poll of what people think about using the term EYDP, which, as
I said earlier, I use as shorthand. Is it a big mistake to use EYDP rather
than the longer form? Perhaps anyone in the audience who has a view on that
could write to us and let us know.

Stuart Duffin: EYDP sounds like an American medical soap.

Mr Paterson: So it might work.

The Convener: It sounds more like a police programme, like "NYPD Blue".

Robert Mooney: I feel that the long version should definitely be used. If I
were to refer to our organisation as the NLBD, most people would probably
not know what that is. It is important that we use the longer version.

James O'Rourke: I agree. If I said that I was from the SNFWB and you did
not have the information in front of you, you would have said, "What is
that?"

Mr Paterson: I would have thought that you were here to arrest me.

James O'Rourke: The use should depend on the context. If the term is being
used in a big document, it could sometimes be abbreviated. Perhaps every
two or three pages, the term should go back to the full name, so that
people can get used to it.

The Convener: I thank the witnesses for coming along. I also thank all the
Parliament staff for organising today's meeting—most people will not be
aware of the amount of work that goes into getting us out of the Parliament
chambers and into other venues. I also thank the interpreters for
facilitating today's meeting

My thanks also go to all the people who sat in the public gallery and took
an interest in our proceedings. I invite everybody to come through to the
buffet in the Cramond room.

Meeting closed at 12:06.


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