SCOTS Project - www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk Document : 1676 Title : Interview with David Thomson for Scottish Readers Remember Project Author(s): N/A Copyright holder(s): SAPPHIRE SCOTS Project Audio transcription M1193: My very early reading would be hazy to say the least. F1189: Mm. M1193: Erm, it would be before the war. Er we were living, my brother and sister and I lived with our grandmother //and// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: spinster aunt. While Dad, he, he was, he was an auxiliary airforce person and the minute the war started //he was whipped away.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: Erm. We didn't have any contact with our mother so we were actually brought up by our grandmother during the war. F1189: Right uh-huh. M1193: My aunt had a great influence, really, in my life because she was pretty kee-keen on, you know, getting us onto learning very early and ehm I know she gave me a big help as far as reading and writing and that sort of thing went //before school.// F1189: //This was your aunt, David?// //Yes, uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// M1193: //Yeah, spinster aunt.// Erm and she was with eh I lived there for oh till I was twenty-one, twenty-two. F1189: Mm. M1193: So she's a big influence in my life. And probably was one of the main people in getting me to read, you know, anything really. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Oh I suppose we read the Beano and the Dandy and //all those.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: Oor Wullie and all [laugh], the Broons and all those sort of things. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Er on- erm of course once the comics came out after the war, I'm not so sure we, those comics were available during the war. I don't think the Hotspur and the Adventurer, they may have been, I can't remember. But I used to read the Hotspur faithfully every week. But I got into reading, I liked the adventure and history and ehm Sir Walter Scott's. Most of those books I've read. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm Robert Louis Stevenson I suppose. F1189: Hm. M1193: "Treasure Island" //and ehm// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: and eh Walter Scott, he wrote "Red Gauntlet", didn't he? //Yes.// F1189: //He did, yeah.// M1193: Yeah, I'm just trying to think of all the other ones. //Eh.// F1189: //Well, one way// it might be easier for you to remember when you read things and, and, M1193: Yeah. F1189: how you got your hands on them, is if you tell me a wee bit about ehm where it was you lived. You were born in //nineteen thirty-four, is that right?// M1193: //Oh yeah, well, sorry, well// we lived in Partick F1189: Mm. M1193: in Thornwood Terrace F1189: Mm. M1193: which was just up the road from the Clyde. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: We could see the granary or the 'grainery', //whatever you want to// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: call it. And I lived there for oh gosh, sixteen, seventeen years I suppose. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm. We went to the local church at ehm Balshagray. And I was in the Boys' Brigade, the Life Boys and that sort of thing. F1189: Mm. M1193: Youth Fellowship. We spent most of our Sunday at church which was the usual thing in those days. //Er.// F1189: //Were your family quite religious then, David?// M1193: Well, my grandmother certainly was, //and// F1189: //Hmm.// M1193: ehm we went to the church and that //was it.// F1189: //Mm// mmhm. M1193: Sunday school in the morning and Bible class in the afternoon and we used to go to Youth Fellowship at night. I enjoyed it. And the Boys' Brigade of course, I did, we went, that was every Friday night. F1189: Mm. M1193: And I did reasonably well there, I got my King's badge when I was... And then of course ehm I went to Hyndland school, which again was only quarter of an hour up the road. F1189: Did you go to ehm a primary school in Thornwood, //or Glasgow?// M1193: //Ah well, the// primary school was across the road. F1189: Mm. M1193: Thornwood F1189: Mm. M1193: Primary School, it's still there in fact. F1189: Mm. M1193: Yes, I went there till I was eleven and then I went to Hyndland Senior Secondary School and spent five years there. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And then I did my horticultural training with the Glasgow Corporation Arts Department. F1189: Mm. M1193: And a couple of years at eh West of Scotland Agricultural College. F1189: Oh that's down in eh Auchincruive. M1193: I don't think it's even, I don't think it exists anymore, not in Glasgow. We used to do our theory in Glasgow and used to go down Edinburgh somewhere to do a couple of weeks' //practical.// F1189: //Right.// //Uh-huh uh-huh mmhm.// M1193: //I can- I can't remember the name of the place.// F1189: If we go back to, to your house in Thornwood, you were there for a good long time, sixteen //years.// M1193: //Yes,// we weren't evacuated, fact we were probably the only people in our street who weren't //evacuated.// F1189: //Really? Uh-huh.// What age were you when your, your dad went into the RAF then? M1193: Well, I can remember it vividly. I was, he went in 1939 so I would have been six. F1189: Mm. M1193: Five, six. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: We were at Helensburgh on holiday and F1189: Mm. M1193: he came down and kissed us goodbye and was away [laugh]. F1189: [laugh] M1193: And we could- I couldn't figure out what was going on. //That was// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: just when war was declared. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: So he was away in ehm he was in the six-oh-two Glasgow, city of Glasgow //squadron.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// Did he join up or was he part of //an auxiliary?// M1193: //He was in the auxiliary,// //which// F1189: //Ah right.// M1193: before the, //[?]first to be used[/?].// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: And then of course they're first F1189: Mmhm. //Mmhm.// M1193: //taken away so he was away right at the very beginning.// F1189: And what did he do for a living before the war? M1193: He worked in the Albion Motorworks. //So he// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: was a motor mechanic. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And he did a similar type of job in, in the RAF. He couldn't fly because he's colour-blind. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: But he looked after the planes he was in charge of. //Whereas...// F1189: //So he was// an engineer then? M1193: Yeah, he was an engineer //yeah, and ehm// F1189: //Mmhm mm.// M1193: that's what he did throughout //the war.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// Hmm. M1193: And he was a wing commander //when he left.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. And you all lived in, was it your grandmother's house then? M1193: Yeah, was the We all, th-th-the three of us lived there but my father ehm remarried. F1189: Mm. M1193: And eh we had the usual family F1189: Mm. M1193: squabbles and //[cough]// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: without going into it in detail I preferred to stay with my grandmother. //So I stayed// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: there and my brother and sister and the rest of them went up to Hillhead. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm I didn't particularly like it up there so as I, I came back down. F1189: Mmhm. So how, //how many brothers and sisters// M1193: //then I think...// //I've just got// F1189: //do you have?// M1193: ehm well I've got a half-sister F1189: Mm. M1193: who lives here //in New Zealand// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Oh right, uh-huh uh-huh.// M1193: //because they emigrated to New Zealand.// And I came out here in 1965. F1189: Hmm. M1193: And ehm yeah um one brother and a sister at home. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: Who, they're older than I am. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. So there's four of you? M1193: Yes four //of us altogether, yeah.// F1189: //Four of you uh-huh.// //And where// M1193: //Mm.// F1189: do you fall in-in-in the family then? M1193: Ehm. Between my brother and sister at home and I, I was the youngest and then Freddie who lives out here she's, she's the youngest of the four of us. F1189: Right uh-huh so you're, you're in the middle really. M1193: Yeah. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// Now, in your house in Thornwood then, your grandmother's house, ehm were there books in the house? M1193: Yes. F1189: Hmm. M1193: There definitely were //because// F1189: //Hmm.// M1193: we ehm my aunt Peggy, she, she introduced me to a lot of that sort of thing, //books, but I// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: honestly can't remember ehm exactly what the ones were. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm. I've got a few of, is it J B Priestley? F1189: Mmhm. M1193: In fact I think they're even out there somewhere. Ehm but I don't honestly remember reading any of his, his books. F1189: Were they your aunt's books then? M1193: Yeah, yeah, she //sh-she// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: bequeathed them to me. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: But she certainly got me interested in, I was interested in history right from the beginning //so// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: I followed a lot of ehm, we're supposed to be related in some way to Greek Thomson, you prob- F1189: Oh yes, I've //heard uh-huh// M1193: //Supposed to be.// //[laugh]// F1189: //uh-huh uh-huh.// M1193: I, I tried to do some research //on him and// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: his family tree's about that //width.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: About eleven, twelve, thirteen children so F1189: Mm. M1193: where we come in that set-up, I've no idea //to be honest.// F1189: //[laugh]// Is that part of family lore do you think or, or is //do you think it's probably based on// M1193: //Well, I'm i-i-// it's rather //strange because// F1189: //accuracy?// M1193: my sister lives in Balfron. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm for some, ehm Greek Thomson had some connection with Balfron. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Eh the people of Balfron got to know Alison and thought the connection, the connection because ehm she opened the, they must have had a special eh room in the library or something for him. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: But I'm, I have my doubts whether we're any, F1189: [laugh] M1193: we're related to that extent. F1189: Well, you'll maybe be able to prove it sometime. M1193: Well, let's see, my brother started it //but// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: I haven't got onto it //yet.// F1189: //Mm.// Now, where did you keep books then? There were books, your aunt had books, you say. //Where were they kept?// M1193: //Yeah, well// There were ehm, yeah, we had a fairly big bookcase. F1189: Mm. M1193: I, I just can't remember all that too much. Ehm of course during the war I'm not so sure that there were all that many books printed or //even,// F1189: //Mm// mmhm. M1193: even comic books F1189: Mmhm. M1193: I don't think were printed to any great extent. F1189: Can you remember the first book //that you owned?// M1193: //No...// It would be one of the Biggles books probably. F1189: Hmm. M1193: I've read all of, all of those //books.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: Erm. Or it could have been ehm, "The Thirty-Nine Steps" was a book I read early on. F1189: Mm. Oh what age were you about when you read that? //Because it is an adult book, isn't it?// M1193: //[inaudible]// Yeah, I was probably ten, twelve. //Oh no, I'd be// F1189: //Were you?// M1193: twelve, thirteen maybe. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: But all the Biggles books I read long before that. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And I enjoyed, I used to go to the library. I used to go to the Whiteinch Library. And we were made to go to the library //which was// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: quite good really. F1189: You were made to go? M1193: Well, my aunt used to instruct and say `Well if you don't read you don't learn' so. F1189: Your aunt seems to have been a big //influence in that way mm.// M1193: //Oh big influence in my, my life.// //Yeah, there's no question about that.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: She was a very clever lady. F1189: Mm. And what did she do for a living? M1193: She was a, she was an accountant F1189: Mm. M1193: in a lawyer's firm, and ehm she worked there ehm in the one firm just about all her life I think. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. A lady accountant th-th-that's something //then.// M1193: //Yeah, that's// away back, //and// F1189: //Uh-huh.// M1193: she was pretty well respected //in// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: in her job. F1189: Do you remember anything of what she liked to read? M1193: No, I honestly can't, to be //honest.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: No, it's, it's a, it's a pity but I can't really remember. F1189: Mm. M1193: [throat] F1189: But did she direct your reading in any way by buying you books or //or// M1193: //Well// she always made [throat] If I... she used to buy, she probably bought most of the Biggles books I read and also F1189: Mm. M1193: ehm Robert Louis Stevenson's, you know, "Treasure Island" //amongst others.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: I used to get them for Christmas presents or ehm, and I also used to get eh presents from the Boys' Brigade. //Best attendance and all this sort of thing.// F1189: //Oh yes uh-huh uh-huh.// uh-huh. M1193: I've still got them out there. F1189: Mmhm oh well, we could maybe have a look at them then, the //books you got.// M1193: //Yeah, yeah.// We've actually ju- I've just tidied a lot of the books up //because// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: we've had a swag of The Reader's Digest F1189: Mm. M1193: omnibus editions. I joined The Reader's Digest thirty, forty years ago, //I suppose.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: But eh when I went into the RAF to do my National Service I was in Germany F1189: Mm. M1193: for a while. And that's when I joined the World Book Club which doesn't exist anymore I don't think. And that got me into reading quite a lot of different ehm books. F1189: Hmm. M1193: But most of my books were either ehm history orientated or ehm autobiography so //I was very// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. M1193: nosy, shall we say, in eh people, you know, in the past. F1189: Mm. M1193: Scott and all those people. F1189: What did you think about the, the Walter Scott novels? //Mm.// M1193: //I rather liked them.// I, I know pe-people used to say they were maybe a bit funny but I'm sure I've read most of them. Ehm, I think I was probably a patriotic Scot, I suppose, in those days. Anything English I didn't like. F1189: [laugh] M1193: But ehm no, I-I-I didn't have any great trouble reading those books. I, I usually finished them. F1189: Mm. M1193: Very often you start a book and you don't, you see five or six hundred pages, you don't, and you don't bother but ehm F1189: Now, where did you get the Scott novels? Did you own them? M1193: I think I had them, fact I've F1189: Mm. M1193: I don't know whether I've still got some here or not. Ehm. I know at one time we did own S- er Sir Walter Sco- er Walter Scott omnibus. F1189: Mm. M1193: With all his books in at the one time but, I've, since I left home and been around but F1189: Mmhm. M1193: eh I never actually got that book. //So where// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: it is now //I wouldn't know.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: My brother might have it. But ehm F1189: Did yo ever re-read the Scott novels? M1193: Yes I've read, I have read them again because eh with the ehm Reader's Digest omnibus, you know, the shortened version, it very often came up in the five books that you're reading are the full books, F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: ehm. But ehm I've, I've very often read our Reader's Digest and then gone back to reading the full story. F1189: Mmhm, right uh-huh. M1193: I have done that F1189: Mmhm. M1193: a few times. F1189: Now, Whiteinch Library I have been in, //erm,// M1193: //Yeah.// F1189: it's quite a small library. M1193: It certainly was //pretty small// F1189: //Mm.// //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1193: //in those days, yeah.// But ehm F1189: Can you remember anything about it? M1193: I can remember the librarians F1189: Mm. M1193: ehm this business of having to keep quiet all the time. F1189: Mm. M1193: It looks from my point of view, it looked quite a nice, nice entrance to it, if I remember right. I've no idea what it's like now. //But ehm// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: No, we, I used to enjoy going down there. F1189: Did your aunt take you or did you //go on your own?// M1193: //No we went [?]with others[/?].// I had a friend, he was a bit like me so we used to go down there together. F1189: Mm. M1193: And then we would play in the park on the way through, sort of thing. F1189: Mmhm. //Would you say// M1193: //Ehm.// F1189: you were quite bookish then, as a child? M1193: I think, well... yes, probably I would, I would say that, I would quite enjoy the F1189: Mm. M1193: reading. But the comics, you know, the eh we used to get the usual Dandy, Beano and The Broons for Christmas or whatever, used to get those books. F1189: How did you buy the Dandy and the Beano? Ehm. M1193: Oh we got it on a weekly, it was a weekly thing if I remember right. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: And the Hotspur, it came out on a Thursday or a Friday. F1189: Mm. //And what was it// M1193: //Ehm.// F1189: that you liked about the Hotspur? M1193: Well, there again I liked the adventure stories in there. F1189: Mm. M1193: The, the continuations week by week. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: I enjoyed those. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Whether it was just fantasy or [laugh] the imagination runs wild. F1189: Mm. M1193: No, I quite enjoyed it. F1189: mmhm M1193: And I bought the Hotspur for a long long time. F1189: Mm. Now you said you, you weren't evacuated even though you lived quite near the Clyde. M1193: Hmm //my// F1189: //Hmm.// M1193: grandmother was adamant. F1189: Mm. M1193: I think, I'm not a hundred per cent sure but I think they were going to separate us. F1189: Mm. M1193: The three of us, //there was only the// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: three of us at that time. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And she said `no way'. And she got away with it which was quite surprising. But funnily enough, you talk about that. I've just seen this ehm Asp-, you know the chap who does the Antique Roadshow? F1189: Mmhm. M1193: He's just had a programme. He was evacuated. F1189: Mm. M1193: And they've just it's ehm shown as a series on, that he's just refilmed, //you know, filmed with,// F1189: //Mm mm.// M1193: going back to the... In some cases it's been good, some cases it's pretty disastrous [inaudible]. I know that we had eh people that came back from Canada. F1189: Hmm. M1193: I think there was three girls. And the mother was at home obviously and ehm I think they stayed a year, then went back to Canada. F1189: Mm. M1193: They just couldn't. F1189: It could be disruptive, yes, of a family. M1193: So we were pretty lucky, I think. F1189: I'm just thinking, if you were there all during the war you must have seen the bombs drop M1193: Oh yeah, we ehm F1189: on Clydebank? M1193: There was one dropped I don't know whether you know, Crow Road in Glasgow. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: There was one dropped there, it didn't explode. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: We used to go up and have a look at it. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: But we had the big water tank at //the...// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: There's only, Thornwood Terrace is only th-th-three houses. F1189: Mm. M1193: It's extended now but //in those// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: days it was three //tenement bu-.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: And we had a vacant [inaudible] office at the school. And that was made into one of those water tanks as well. But we always went we-we-we went across the road to the school for, the siren went, that's where we went, the air raid shelter. F1189: Right, I see. M1193: Just across the road. F1189: Yes, how many people would have been in //the air raid shelter, then?// M1193: //Oh yeah, yeah.// F1189: Would there have been quite a few? M1193: Well, there was, there was ehm I think there was three air raid shelters //in the school.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: Ehm we went to the one obviously nearest us. F1189: Mm. M1193: It was always pretty full. F1189: Mm. //Erm,// M1193: //And// F1189: were you able to read in the air raid shelter or would you have wanted to? M1193: Oh it was pretty dark. We used, we were too excited really, I think we used to enter it and watch what was going on above. Ehm. No, we didn't, we didn't really read. It wasn't conducive to reading, I don't think. F1189: Mm. M1193: Er we slept most of the time. F1189: Hmm. Well, you were quite young, ehm. M1193: Well, yeah, I was six, seven maybe. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm during the Battle of Britain. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm but... No, we, we had quite good times actually [laugh], made your own fun, made your own friends and ehm. As I say, there weren't that many of us around in, between forty, forty-three, forty-four. But ehm F1189: Can you remember reading anything about what was going on M1193: Oh yes. F1189: with the war? M1193: Yeah, I used to read quite a bit. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm. Papers, I read the paper. The, I think it was the Bulletin it was called F1189: Mm. M1193: in those days. Ehm. Yes, I, I was always interested in the war, whether that's a sort of mercenary attitude, I don't know [laugh]. I used to go and watch all the ehm, how the Americans won the war, //you know, in, in films,// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: at the cinema. But eh Yes, I've read most of the stories and, and I got a a book, the city of Glasgow six-oh-two squadron. That was presented to me by the Duke of Hamilton. F1189: Mm. M1193: And ehm I was very interested in that because my father knew all the, the aces and that. And ehm so... And, and I've always read, I've al-always been interested in what, you know, what happened in the past, not, I'm not, I'm not a futures person. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm I like to look back rather than look forward. F1189: I'm just wondering th-this wee boy who was excited about the bombs dropping [laugh], //[laugh]// M1193: //[laugh]// F1189: and the fireworks no doubt, //ehm if that extended into// M1193: //Yeah, we, well we got into trouble for it.// F1189: what you liked to read as a, a, //as a small boy?// M1193: //I think to some extent it// probably did, yeah, you're //probably right.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: But I know at school, I wasn't particularly brilliant but I liked history F1189: Mm. M1193: and ehm I was eh I was quite good at history in actual fact. And eh William Wallace and Robert the Bruce and all that. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: [inaudible] of course. F1189: Do you remember reading about them? M1193: Oh yes, very much so. I can even picture the book I used to read F1189: Mmhm. M1193: on William Wallace and ehm F1189: Well, tell me about that then. M1193: Well we, eh even in primary school, we learned about them. And I suppose, during the war, there weren't all that many books around from, I wouldn't think they were printing school books. F1189: Hmm. M1193: And we were taught by, funnily enough I was taught by a a Miss Thomson. There was no men in the school, it was all women. And ehm she was very good, she was a great teacher. But I just seemed to... It was a wee thin book, it was about so big and had all those //pictures of// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: William Wallace and ehm all the bad English people that were //around then.// F1189: //[laugh]// M1193: But ehm no, I can remember reading those books ehm quite clearly but I can't remember anything else about... I wasn't good at geography so I put a blank on that, I just, I never particularly liked geography. But throughout senior school too I wasn't too bad at history. F1189: Mm. What age were you when you left school? M1193: Seventeen, eighteen. //Seventeen.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: Yeah, cause I went to the National Service when I was eighteen. F1189: Mmhm. So did you go straight from school //to National Service?// M1193: //No, I was, I// I, I joined the Glasgow Corporation Parks Department //and// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: I thought I might have got exemption through that but I didn't. I was there for eighteen months, I think it was F1189: Mmhm. M1193: and then I was called up. And I did my two years. Eighteen months in Germany. F1189: Mm. M1193: And ehm that was when I extended my reading cause there wasn't a hell of a lot else to do there. F1189: Mm. M1193: And ehm F1189: Now, Hyndland, was th- was that a fee-paying school //at the time? No,// M1193: //No. No.// //No.// F1189: //it wasn't?// //Did you have to sit in-.// M1193: //No, it's a s-senior// secondary school. //No, my brother went to a fee-paying school,// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: but I didn't. F1189: Mm. M1193: Sister and I went to Hyndland. F1189: Mmhm. Ehm it's quite a good school, though, it was //a senior secondary.// M1193: //Oh, it's a very good school.// I think it's still going. F1189: Mmhm it is. //Yeah ehm.// M1193: //Yeah, I, I haven't been// up there for a long long time. F1189: Did you have to sit a qualifying exam M1193: Yes, //that's right.// F1189: //to go there?// M1193: We had the qualifying exams. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: That's right, we did too. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Yeah, so I managed to pass that [?]figure or not[/?]. F1189: Do you remember studying at all for, for that exam? M1193: Actually I wasn't a very good study. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm. I used to go to the Mitchell library in, when I went to the Agricultural college. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And I, I don't think I really studied, I don't think, I was just looking at the pages. F1189: Mm. M1193: But ehm no, I wasn't very academic-inclined in that respect. F1189: Mm. M1193: I prefer to do it practically, //than// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: other ways. F1189: You were reading all the time you were at Hyndland secondary. //And you mentioned// M1193: //Yeah, well of course.// F1189: Buchan there. M1193: Yeah, that's right. Well eh a lot of the English books, we used to get the home readers I suppose. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: And some of them were Charles Dickens, I wasn't a great fan of Dickens, I was [laugh]. Ehm funnily enough I used to like Shakespeare at school. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: I might not have understood some of it but ehm I used to quite //enjoy reading that.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: Macbeth and Richard the First, Second and ehm F1189: Do you ever remember discussing any of this with your aunt? M1193: I discussed a lot of, she was a Sir Walter Scott person. F1189: Mm. M1193: And ehm I could always go to her and ask. She was always pretty good that way. F1189: Mm mmhm. M1193: Ehm, and she'd make suggestions, you know of, how to read, or you know, whether you read two chapters or three chapters or half the book. //But she was// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: very good that way. But eh I enjoyed, yeah I must admit I enjoyed reading. And then of course when we were in to the, we got into the, after the war we used to get Time magazine. F1189: Mm. M1193: Well, I got Time magazine, yeah, when I was in Germany. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And I used to read that from cover to cover F1189: Mm. M1193: for many years. And National Geographic was another. I used to buy and read that. F1189: Do you actually buy those, David? M1193: Yeah. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Well you, well we got them, well I got them up until, what? Oh, three, three, four years ago I suppose. Ehm till they started getting a bit pricey //and// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: we weren't, I mean I wasn't working, I was retired by then, so we stopped, I stopped both of them in actual fact. F1189: Mm. M1193: But I kept the Reader's Digest going. I like the Reader's Digest. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: It's not really half the magazine it used to be. F1189: Mm. M1193: Not quite. F1189: Do you think so? In what way has it changed? M1193: It's smaller for a start, F1189: Mm. M1193: ehm thinner. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And also I think Time magazine's changed, it's not quite the magazine it was F1189: Mm. M1193: ten years ago, //five years ago,// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: I don't think. F1189: Mm. M1193: Hmm. Yes it's eh [?]that still[/?] come back to me every now and again [laugh]. F1189: Things do come back to you. M1193: Yes, it's surprising really. F1189: Now, you've talked quite a bit about ehm your National Service. Did you choose the RAF then? M1193: Yeah, well, my father was in the RAF //and my,// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: my brother did his National Service in the RAF. F1189: Mm. M1193: But I'm rather a pig-headed person, I wanted to join the army [laugh]. F1189: [laugh] M1193: And ehm F1189: Did you just want to be different? M1193: Yes, like they, they supported Rangers soccer team and I supported Hibernian. //[laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// Hibs! //And you a Glaswegian?// M1193: //[laugh]// F1189: [laugh] M1193: Well for-, I used to play with a bloke whose uncle F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: played for Hibernian. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: So I said oh I'll, I'll support Hibernian. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. //And, and did you say the others all supported Rangers?// M1193: //However that's...// Oh yes. //Very much so.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1193: They still do [laugh]. F1189: What about you, do you still follow football? M1193: Yeah, not so much. I, I got into playing rugby ehm why, I'll never know really, //because I was too small to start with// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// M1193: and I wasn't bad at soccer. F1189: Mm. M1193: I played soccer up until senior school, //prima-// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: eh secondary school. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm my brother was playing rugby and I thought oh well, he can play it, I'll try //it out too.// F1189: //Mmhm, mmhm.// M1193: I used to play cricket. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: But eh in fact I was a member of the West of Scotland Cricket Club. F1189: Well, that cricket club's not far from where you lived. M1193: No, that's right. I used to walk down //there with my bat under my arm and [laugh],// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.// M1193: and ehm F1189: Do you ever recall reading anything about sports then? M1193: Oh yes eh well, I've got a few, a lot, a few cricket books //ehm// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: I got a few golf books. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm. Yeah, I read those. I didn't, I wasn't a great fan of ehm autobio-autobiographical F1189: Mm. M1193: eh like me read- writing a book about my F1189: Mm. M1193: escapades. I don't, never, and statistics I wasn't ehm interested in. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm but I've got eh books on how to play most sports. F1189: Mm. M1193: And ehm [?]so I like my[/?] cricket. F1189: Mm. M1193: And I've, yeah, I've read quite a few of those. F1189: Mm. M1193: And... F1189: Did you go to watch football in Glasgow? M1193: No, I didn't go to soccer, no, //I didn't.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: Ehm in the first place there was nobody really to take me. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm my father was oh he was during the war //but ehm// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: after the war he didn't go //to watch// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: soccer, the odd occasion he might have. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm but oh My grandmother wouldn't let me go to any Celtic-Rangers games, it was just impossible [laugh]. F1189: Well, I was going to ask you. It's a, a, it's a contentious issue still, //in Glasgow, football.// M1193: //Well, it's stil-, isn't it? Yeah.// //Yeah.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: I watch the odd game on, on telly and Sky //TV// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: show the odd one now and again. Ehm, I've lost interest in soccer, I think. F1189: Mm. M1193: I think ev-ever since it became such a professional money game //it's// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: changed entirely. F1189: Now, I'm told th-that there is more interest in soccer in New Zealand //now.// M1193: //It's// It's coming good. //Yeah.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: They've ehm... It's, I don't know how they're, it's not for the want of trying but the people who have been running it are basically English or Scottish. F1189: Mm. M1193: I'm not so sure that that's the best way to... They're, they're thinking from the way they were trained and it's //not// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: the same out here. F1189: Mm. M1193: But no, they've improved a bit. F1189: Mm. M1193: Eh but I don't know, I don't watch sport now at all. F1189: So, so what do you think they're doing wrong then, in coming out here? M1193: [laugh] Well, I wouldn't really know to be honest i-it's the, a New Zealander is quite a different person from even me or, or certainly the English people. And trying to push your ways onto theirs. F1189: Mm. M1193: It's, the mentality's different, the //upbringing's// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: different. They're a lot more casual out here ehm, certainly in soccer, maybe not in rugby but certainly in soccer. F1189: Mm. Well they take rugby very seriously. //[laugh] [laugh]// M1193: //Oh aye, take that, it's the other end, you take it too seriously.// I don't watch, I don't watch rugby now either, very seldom. F1189: Mm. M1193: This competition we have at the moment. F1189: Mm. M1193: It's probably the hardest competition in rugby. F1189: Mmhm yes, uh-huh. M1193: Oh it's a tough super-fourteen as they call it. F1189: Now, I'm interested in the reading that you did as a National Serviceman. Eh. M1193: Ah well, that, that ehm, that's when I read a lot of Time magazine. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm, they can't, they can't, I, I spent eighteen months in Germany F1189: Mmhm. M1193: and I'm not a hundred per cent sure that the camp actually had a library. That's when I joined the World Book Club, that's right. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm I used to get the books F1189: Mm M1193: sent to me, but what they all were I wouldn't honestly know now. F1189: Can you remember any of them? M1193: It's not that long since I threw them out. F1189: Oh you kept them. M1193: Oh yeah. F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: Aye, that book there was full of F1189: There's a //bookcase// M1193: //ehm// F1189: just through ehm. //We're in David's sitting room and// M1193: //Reader's Digest and// F1189: there's a bookcase in the hall. M1193: Janet'll tell you that there's a thing in eh. Since we moved into this smaller house here we thought oh we've got to get rid of some of them. F1189: Eh. M1193: So we gave some to the, I've got two daughters and we gave some to them. The rest we just nobody wanted them, the library didn't, the libraries don't take The Reader's Digest //books which actually// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: surprises me, I can't understand that. F1189: Mm, mmhm. M1193: Eh, I suppose it's their turnover and the full book [inaudible]. F1189: So did you get, how often did you get sent books through the World Book Club? M1193: Oh well that, that lasted quite a while. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm. I have a funny feeling the World Book Club packed in. F1189: Mm. M1193: I've a feeling it, I can't honestly remember. But no, I wa-was a member of that for two or three years. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. //W-was it// M1193: //I think.// F1189: promoted to Serviceman then at all? M1193: Well, I'm not sure. Ehm I think I might even have started that at home originally. F1189: Mm. M1193: And I got them to send them out to me in eh in, in Germany. F1189: Mm. You said that you, you didn't think there was a library in the, in the camp. M1193: Yeah, well, I-I-I worked in a radio, I was a wireless operator. F1189: Mm. M1193: And it was a small camp we were in. I don't, I certainly don't remember going to the library, put it that way. F1189: Mm. M1193: Maybe I didn't bother, maybe I didn't //read so much then as// F1189: //[?]you didn't[/?] [laugh]// //You,// M1193: //ehm// F1189: you said yourself there wasn't much else to do sometimes. Eh. M1193: Well we didn't have a lot of eh, we weren't allowed to go into the, you know, I'm talking nineteen fifty-one, //fifty-two, sorry.// F1189: //Hmm mmhm.// M1193: It's not that long after the war. F1189: Mm. M1193: We weren't allowed to go into town //by ourselves,// F1189: //Mmhm.// Mmhm. M1193: eh or even in pairs, we had to go in in threes and fours. F1189: Mm. M1193: Because there was still a lot of bitterness. F1189: Mm. M1193: And ehm F1189: Did you have to wear a uniform when you were out? M1193: Yeah, you were supposed to wear uniform all the time, F1189: Mm. M1193: basically. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm, but it was ehm [inaudible] I enjoyed my National Service. F1189: Mm. M1193: Something I think everyone should have done sometime or other. F1189: And how come you didn't go to the army? M1193: Ah well eh what happened then? When I went for my interview I did the usual. I wanted to be, you know, become a flyer but when they mix all those numbers up in the different colours I couldn't pick them out. F1189: Mm. M1193: Which was the same as my father, he was the same thing so. And they said `oh you'll have to sign on'. F1189: Mm. M1193: And I said `Well I'm not signing on for three, five years' and ehm I said `I'll go into the army if it comes to the crunch'. F1189: Mm. M1193: And next thing I-, they said `Okay, we'll see, we'll let you know what's going on'. And surprise surprise they said I couldn't stay and do my two years in the RAF. F1189: Mm. M1193: They were just trying to get people to sign on for five years. F1189: Ah right, I //see uh-huh,// M1193: //That was the main thing.// F1189: uh-huh. So you, you generally enjoyed it then? //How much// M1193: //Oh yeah.// F1189: time did you spend reading do you think, as a serviceman? What kind of day wou-would you do it at? M1193: Well, F1189: Time of day I meant. M1193: we didn't have a lot of time. Because you're either, during the day itself, it's mainly at night F1189: Mm. M1193: I would say we'd ehm, and while I was doing my square-bashing, the two months that you have, you're all in barracks F1189: Mm. //Mmhm.// M1193: //of twenty, thirty people// and you didn't really have any, much time there. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm and I didn't drink alcohol at that particular time so I didn't go to the Naafi very often. Ehm. We didn't, in Germany we, in our, in our spare time, we worked shift work, erm because as, as a, a wireless operator, F1189: Mm. M1193: we used to sit and listen to the Ger- eh the Russian F1189: Mm. M1193: Morse code. And that was a shift. So we used to work two days on, two days off. In our two days off we probably did a bit of sport, I used, I took up fencing for a while. F1189: Mm. M1193: And ehm that took up a bit of time and then we... you could walk into the local township which was just a wee village really. In fact, we weren't all that far from Belsen. Er you could walk up the road to Belsen if you wanted. Ehm. Yeah, I enjoyed the, walking around the area probably. F1189: Mm. M1193: Er the Naafi was a bit better over there. But ehm the Germans certainly looked after them. The soldiers. Erm it was a German camp //we lived in.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Ah right, I see. Now, did you get sent any kind of news from home, newspapers or magazines? M1193: Oh yeah, I used to get letters from home //and ehm,// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: ehm of course it wasn't the same news connection like you can get now but F1189: Mm. M1193: it was letters we, we sort of got. Ehm, I used to write home er to my, my aunt, my grandmother and that //sort of thing.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// //Mmhm.// M1193: //Friends at home.// F1189: Did they send the, you any of the, the Bulletin for example or, M1193: Sorry? F1189: The Bulletin, for example, or any of the, the newspapers from Scotland? M1193: Er oh I I used to get the, was it the Sunday Express? F1189: Mm. M1193: Yeah, I used to get the Sunday Express F1189: Mmhm. M1193: sent out. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And ehm the football results //and that sort of thing.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: And read what's going on. F1189: Mmhm. Now you mentioned Oor Wullie and the Broons //back there.// M1193: //Oh yeah.// F1189: Do you recall them from the annuals? M1193: Yeah, well, I do yeah. F1189: Mm. M1193: I didn't get the comics, I don't think. F1189: Mm. M1193: Well, I might have got the Beano. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: What was it, the Beano and the Dandy, weren't there two? F1189: There were two. //Yes uh-huh.// M1193: //Yeah, but we, we weren't// allowed both, we //had to get one// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: or the other. //Now// F1189: //[laugh]// M1193: Of course we used to swap them. F1189: Right. //Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1193: //A, a lot of swapping// F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: eh with each other. F1189: Was that with //your brother?// M1193: //I said// `I've got the Beano', he says `Okay, you get the Dandy and then //we'll swap'.// F1189: //Uh-huh// uh-huh. M1193: That sort of thing. //Ehm.// F1189: //That makes sense.// [laugh] M1193: Well, yeah. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And eh F1189: Did you ever swap them with your school friends? M1193: Yeah, well, we did that. There was quite a bit of that //went on.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: Ehm. Now I come to think about it, you're probably right, we did. Yeah, cause I had a few schoolfriends who lived nearby //in eh// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: fact I had one schoolfriend who ehm, he got the American Superman and Batman comics which we certainly couldn't get //in Britain, so// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: that was a big bonus. I used to read those. //Superman,// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. M1193: Batman and all those ones. I, I used to quite enjoy those comics. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: You always learned something from them. F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: But ehm F1189: What kind of thing did you learn from them? M1193: Oh well, I suppose, it was the way, the way the, the way the people lived, what they did, you know. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: The Broons was always a first-class example of... it's rather like I, I read the comics we've got here, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: like [laugh] oh Calvin and, Calvin and Hobbes and [inaudible]. F1189: Oh I see, you've got Hagar the Horrible //there too which is,// M1193: //Yeah [laugh].// F1189: it's a good old traditional one. M1193: Peanuts. F1189: And Peanuts as well? //Uh-huh.// M1193: //Yeah.// F1189: Now, what's that you've got there? Is that the //Otago Daily News?// M1193: //That's the Otago Daily// er, the what do they call it? The Otago Daily //Times.// F1189: //Daily Times.// Uh-huh. M1193: Well um I do the crosswords, I try to do the crosswords. F1189: Uh-huh. You said you got the Sunday Express then which would have been a M1193: Yeah. It ehm F1189: a weekly paper //erm, sent out to you.// M1193: //it came out on Sunday,// //well,// F1189: //Uh-huh// //uh-huh.// M1193: //Sunday Express, yeah.// It's the weekend paper. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Of course it gave all the information //of what was going on.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. M1193: Ehm, but of course then I went to Ceylon. F1189: Oh right, so you moved from Germany. M1193: Yes. [laugh] F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: I was there for eight, eight and half years. And it was similar then, I got the Reader's Digest //and ehm// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: We didn't have a library at all. So that was... F1189: Now what took you to Ceylon? M1193: Oh my horticultural //and so I// F1189: //Right, so this was,// M1193: became a tea planter. F1189: uh-huh now this was after you came out the, the airforce. M1193: Yeah, I went to college F1189: Mmhm. M1193: I finished my eh not quite finished my horticultural training. And through my aunt again, //she got// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: me, she worked, her firm were accountants //for// F1189: //Mm// //mmhm.// M1193: //er tea plantations// in Malaysia and Ceylon and India. Ehm I got the chance to go, in fact I had a choice to go to India, Ceylon, ehm Malaysia. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Well, Malaya, as it was called in those days. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: With all the strife... I wanted to go to Malaya. F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: But with all the strife there they [laugh], they sort of um said, `No, I don't think that would be a good place to go' so F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: I went to Ceylon. F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: And F1189: Was that a Scottish company who owned //these plantations?// M1193: //No, it was, it was English.// //It was an English company.// F1189: //Was it?// //Uh-huh.// M1193: //Yeah.// F1189: Can you remember the name of it? M1193: Yes, it was the [inaudible] tea and rubber estate. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: And the agents were Harrisons and Crossfield F1189: Mmhm. M1193: in London. F1189: Now, that's quite an exciting sort of career //choice really.// M1193: //Oh yeah.// That was //probably the best// F1189: //Ehm// mmhm. M1193: i-i-it was probably the best, not the best time of my life but it was //certainly// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: [inaudible] it spread my, you know, ideas and ehm on //life.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. M1193: And, of course I got to mix with not just Scottish people, I mean that's the same in the RAF, I, I met er Welshmen, Irishmen //Englishmen.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: I became very friends with an English chap. And we were together for the two years we were there so //it was good.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. M1193: Eh when I went to Ceylon of course it's a completely different sort of Somerset Maugham-type set-up. Oh yeah, I used to read his books. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And ehm it was a thoroughly enjoyable time. //That's where Jan and I met.// F1189: //Mm.// Mmhm. M1193: She was a nurse F1189: Mmhm. M1193: in the European hospital. F1189: Now, did you want to emigrate then? Was that always part of your life //plan?// M1193: //Well, you see, that's,// I don't, whether I'm peculiar, my family, but I wanted to go and see how other people lived. And I've always been nosy in that respect. But ehm and Jan's obviously been the same because she came out to Ceylon. F1189: Mm. M1193: Al-although she came out for oth- because of the climate. The climate, I wasn't particularly worried about that, the climate at that time. F1189: Mm. M1193: It's ehm, and it developed from there, I ehm I, I've, I think I had The Reader's Digest omnibus editions then. F1189: Mm. M1193: And I used to get them directed to, to me. Time magazine. Oh and ehm National Geographic, I got when I was in Ceylon. And eh I did a, a lot of reading then, various books //and eh// F1189: //mm// M1193: detective books, `Who-done-it's and ehm, //through the// F1189: //[inaudible]// M1193: through the Reader's Di- through the Reader's Digest, //of course.// F1189: //Mm// mmhm. M1193: Ehm. F1189: Can you recall any of the, these are works of fiction then? M1193: Yeah, I did, I read a lot of fiction. //Ehm.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: What do you call that eh, oh what's the name, that, that woman author? F1189: Agatha Christie? M1193: Yeah, that's the one, yeah, //Agatha Christie,// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: yeah, that's right. I read a lot of hers. F1189: Mm. M1193: And I started to re-read, like, as you say, `Red Gauntlet' and `Thirty-Nine //Steps'// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: and those books. Ehm. F1189: Had you taken any of your, your own books with you to Ceylon? M1193: Ehm now, there's a question. I can't honestly remember. I think I might have. But what they were would be a mystery, erm eh, I wouldn't, no I don't think I could put a name //to,// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: to most of them but it's possible I could have done. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm. F1189: I'm just wondering if you had some real favourites, ones that meant something to you that you, you took with you. M1193: Well, a lot of the, some of the ones I got when I was in the Boys' Brigade, //ehm,// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: for best all-round boy and things like that, I got ehm [inaudible] They would all be Sir Walter Scott's books mainly because I- and ehm I can't just think off-hand. F1189: Oh so you got some of the Scott as ehm Boys' Brigade presents, //did you?// M1193: //Oh yeah.// Yeah I-I- I also got ehm Scott of the Arctic, what was his name ehm F1189: The explorer? M1193: Hmm? //Yeah, explorer, yeah [laugh].// F1189: //The explorer mm mmhm.// M1193: That one must be in the other room //then.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: Ehm. Yeah, I was quite proud of F1189: Mm. M1193: some of those things I got //[?]while I was a Lifeboy[/?]. Oh they// F1189: //Yeah, so you should be.// //Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1193: //go back a long while.// Eh I looked at one the other day there, it's dated nineteen //forty-four.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: Hell's teeth. [laugh] F1189: Well, maybe we could have a wee look at them at the end, that would //be interesting.// M1193: //Yeah.// F1189: Ehm. //Can I ask// M1193: //Oh yes.// F1189: you, though, if you ever took a Bible with you? M1193: Oh yes, well, I did, yeah, //I always had a// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: Bible with me, //you're quite right.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: Yes, I always carried the Bible. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm, certainly in those days. [throat] Not so much, eh I did have one in Ceylon but I didn't really go to church in Ceylon. F1189: Mm. M1193: And there was a Presbyterian church in the village F1189: Hmm. M1193: where, where I was F1189: Mmhm. M1193: stationed. But eh I don't know, I got out of the habit. [laugh] Or I may have got fed up with the habit, I'm not //quite sure.// F1189: //Mm.// Do you think that was being away from home that did that? M1193: Yeah i-it-it seems to, whether I've, you know in your back of your mind, without even thinking about it you think oh well, I don't have to do that any more. And eh that's possibly true because I never seemed to miss it. F1189: Mm. M1193: I don't remember missing it. F1189: Well, what about when you were in the RAF then? Were there church services //and things// M1193: //No.// F1189: there, no? No. M1193: Well, no, when I was, I was down in England doing my square-bashing //as we call it.// F1189: //Mm// mmhm. M1193: We had to go to church. F1189: Oh right [laugh]. M1193: Yeah. F1189: Is that more of the discipline [laugh]? M1193: Well, I got friendly with a, a bloke who was actually in the S- in the Salvation Army. F1189: Mm. M1193: And I didn't realise that until, till we were in town once. There's the, the Salvation Army band //pumping away there.// F1189: //Mm mmhm// mm. M1193: [laugh] And there he was too. I didn't realise he was in the Salvation Army. But yes ehm, we went to church but it was an English church F1189: Mm. M1193: we had to go to. F1189: Mm. M1193: Not the High English but, //you know, the,// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: just an ordinary church, really. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: I quite enjoyed that too. I-, I've always been interested in seeing what other people do F1189: Mm. M1193: other [?]tacks[/?] and ehm in, when I was in Ceylon I certainly did a fair bit of... the peculiar British Raj instinct that you're not allowed to fraternize with the locals and ehm I wasn't even allowed to get too friendly with, with them at all. So if you happened to meet. I was there for four years. That was the first tour. During that time you weren't allowed to own a car. You weren't allowed to get too friendly with any of the fair sex. So it's, it was just frowned upon. F1189: How did you live when you were in Ceylon? //then?// M1193: //Oh yeah,// very, very ehm, we had a bungalow //each.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: With F1189: Your own bungalow then? M1193: Yeah. F1189: Very nice. M1193: Each. F1189: Because, what age were you? You must have been still //quite young.// M1193: //Twenty-three,// //twenty-four.// F1189: //Uh-huh// uh-huh. M1193: When I went there. Twenty-three. //Yeah,// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: probably about twenty three. And servants by the mile. F1189: Mm. M1193: Even had someone to go and get your mail for you. You didn't have to go and pick up your own. And cooks, F1189: Mm. M1193: gardeners. Ehm. F1189: And was there a, a, a British club? M1193: Oh yes, very much so. Oh well, there was a, a local club. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm, it was mixed in those days but, but it was originally, no, it was, it was all European. F1189: Mm mmhm. M1193: There was a European-only club in Colombo. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm but that's of course, is all gone now. And we had our own hospital. F1189: Right. Where, where you met your wife who, who was a nurse. M1193: Yeah. //I met her through,// F1189: //Is that right [laugh]?// M1193: no, I wasn't in the hospital, I just met her through a friend. F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: And ehm F1189: I wondered whether perhaps the, the club, the clubhouse had a library or a //reading room?// M1193: //No.// F1189: Hm. M1193: If it did, it must have hidden it somewhere //because I, I couldn't find it. [laugh]// F1189: //Mm [laugh].// M1193: Ehm. No, it was purely a club where you, we had tennis courts and we played rugby. F1189: Mm. M1193: Eh we had a snooker room, //played snooker// F1189: //Mmhm.// //Mm.// M1193: //or pool or whatever you wanted to do.// Drinking obviously and eh and you can get a meal in some of them. F1189: Mmhm ehm men and women would, would come in there then? M1193: Ehm women were allowed there after a certain time of night, or was it before? [laugh] F1189: Oh right, so it was //a bit of a boys' own then, wasn't it? [laugh].// M1193: //It was, it was pretty, yeah it was to start with.// F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: It was one of those things where you called your boss `sir' until nine o'clock and then you could call him what you liked. F1189: [laugh] //Uh-huh.// M1193: //So it was,// it was still a bit of the eh the old... in fact we left in sixty-five to come here. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And ehm that was just about the end of it. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm. We were due to go home on my, after a second tour, F1189: Mm. M1193: ehm but the Ceylon government wouldn't allow them to send money to UK to pay us. So F1189: It's had a fairly rocky political history, //Ceylon.// M1193: //It has.// It's a beautiful, beautiful F1189: Mmhm. M1193: ehm place, really. F1189: Mm. Or Sri Lanka, I //suppose, as we should call it.// M1193: //Oh yes, Sri Lanka, yeah, as you say.// F1189: Mmhm. M1193: But I wouldn't recognise it if I went back. //Colombo// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: only had three, three main //hotels, I think, when I was there.// F1189: //Mm mm mmhm.// M1193: Now it's got God knows how many. F1189: Ah it's a tourist spot //now.// M1193: //It er// F1189: I'm interested that you got all these Reader's Digest books and you say as well, you think you had a few of your own ones, //the Boys'// M1193: //Yeah.// F1189: Brigade books. The ones that were meaningful //to you.// M1193: //I've probably still got// some of them. F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: Mm. F1189: Uh-huh ehm. M1193: But I've ehm I carted them all out here. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Well, some of the //ones I got when I// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: was in Ceylon. F1189: Now, that's interesting that you've, that you've taken these books with //you on the// M1193: //I-,// //yeah.// F1189: //journey that you've made.// M1193: Well, yeah because I res-, I sort of respect books. //I've go-// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: got a lot of F1189: Mm. M1193: time for them and ehm Janet's a profuse reader, she reads a lot, probably more than me. [laugh] F1189: Now did you get married while you were, M1193: We were married //in Ceylon, yeah.// F1189: //you were in Sri Lanka?// Yeah. M1193: Or Sri Lanka //if you want to call it,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// M1193: yes, we were married there in F1189: Mmhm. M1193: sixty-four. F1189: Mmhm. And that was during your second tour, //you say?// M1193: //Yep.// F1189: Did you come back to the UK after your first one? M1193: Er ah yeah, after my first tour I went back to the UK and ehm We were there er we got six months' leave, F1189: Mm. M1193: for the first, you know, //for the tour.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. M1193: Paid leave, so I tho- I, I, I thought I'd be bored sick but ehm I managed to pass the time. [laugh] F1189: Mm. M1193: Went up to Shetland. F1189: Mm. M1193: I spent, yeah, one of the chaps I was friendly with in, in Sri Lanka, he, his father was a doctor. F1189: Mm. M1193: in Lerwick F1189: Mmhm. M1193: or Lerwick. So I stayed with them for a week, ten days. F1189: So you came back and were a bit of a tourist really in your, your own //country.// M1193: //Yeah.// //I've always// F1189: //[laugh]// M1193: ehm had a bit of restless feet. //If I// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: had the money I'd be touring the world now, I must admit. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: It would be, I'm just waiting to win the lotto for a couple of million bucks. //[laugh] [inaudible].// F1189: //[laugh]// Get in the queue then. //[laugh]// M1193: //Yeah, that's about right.// F1189: Now, how did you get back from eh Sri Lanka to the UK at that time? M1193: Oh eh by ship. F1189: Right. M1193: That's a point, yeah, I went by ship. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: In three weeks, first class. It was ehm single cabins so we, we were pretty well looked //after, I must say oh yeah.// F1189: //I think you were uh-huh uh-huh// M1193: And we'd a, we'd a we'd a friend I went, chap I went over to Sri Lanka with. //We both// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: came back together. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And so we had a pretty good time on board ship. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: But ehm //On the P&O.// F1189: //Did you have much time to read// on the ship? M1193: Probably not, we were probably too busy [?]playing something[/?] or [laugh] I don't know but ehm I probably drank more then. F1189: Mm. M1193: It's one of the things when you go out to those areas. We were never excessive, //we just...// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: and you made friends with people on board ship. Met a lot of eh girls who were actually coming back from Australia, ehm on their OE or Overseas Experience or whatever you call it. F1189: I'm very interested in this OE concept. Ehm. I'd never heard of it before. //And everyone I've met has mentioned it.// M1193: //oh yeah, I don't suppose I had until I came// Yeah. F1189: And what do you think, I mean it's sort of It has hidden meanings, I think, to me. //The notion that// M1193: //I think it's a great thing,// //myself.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: I, I, we've tried to get both our girls to. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: They've been to Australia, and //that sort of thing, but// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: Oh my eldest one's been to UK. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: But ehm they don't seem to have the same wanderlust that Janet and I have. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Er however, they might, they might get there yet. F1189: Mmhm. Do you think it's important ehm //if you grow up// M1193: //I think it is, yeah.// F1189: in somewhere like New Zealand that's, that's thought of as very far away from, from an old European centre, M1193: I, well //that's my// F1189: //to// have that //experience?// M1193: //thoughts on it.// I think you've really got to expand. Especially now, the world's so small. F1189: Mm. M1193: You've really got to expand your horizons and see how other people live. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm I think most of, It took Jan and I until two years ago to go to Australia on holiday. I'd rather go to Rarotonga or Fiji or that sort //of thing,// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: see something different. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Although we enjoyed our holiday in Bris- in Brisbane. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm, but I would- I'm not so keen to go back. F1189: Mm. M1193: I'd go back to Rarotonga. F1189: mmhm //Right.// M1193: //Sit// on the beach and //do nothing.// F1189: //Sounds lovely,// yeah. //Do you read// M1193: //Well Rarotonga is-// F1189: on holiday then, David? //Is that// M1193: //Yeah.// F1189: Do you? Right. M1193: I must admit the last couple of years I haven't really read all that much, ehm, I had bypass surgery F1189: Mm. M1193: four, three and a half years ago. Ehm. But eh i-i-, it slowed me down to a certain extent. F1189: Mm. M1193: My concentration's not quite the same as it used to be. F1189: Mm. M1193: And I tend to get up and put things down and [laugh] I find, I find the book's expired by the time I'm half-way through. F1189: [laugh] M1193: So I must, I haven't been in the library for oh this year anyway. Probably part of last year. F1189: Mm. M1193: But I still read eh now I don't get Time magazine and I don't get National Geographic, mainly because they're so expensive nowadays and ehm I still get the odd Reader's Digest magazine. //I,// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: I read the paper now more than I //used to.// F1189: //Hmm// Mmhm. M1193: And F1189: Do you get that every day? M1193: Yeah, this is a daily paper, //yeah, it// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: comes F1189: Mmhm. M1193: delivered. F1189: Now, if I can go back to, you obviously chose to go back to Sri Lanka so you would have had that M1193: Yes. F1189: three week... M1193: I would still have been, well not there now obviously //but ehm// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: it was just the second F1189: Mm. M1193: tour when Jan and //I got married and ehm// F1189: //Uh-huh.// M1193: we were expecting our first child. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: and it was where do we go home? I could have gone back to UK for my, it'd be four months' leave, I think, //you got the second tour.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: Ehm and then come back to Ceylon again. But the things were changing a bit over there and we decided to, it was either come out here or go back to UK and we neither of us were too keen on the cold weather //by this stage.// F1189: //[laugh]// Uh-huh. M1193: And my father and stepmother and F1189: Hmm. M1193: sister had come out here in fifty-four. F1189: Ah right uh-huh. M1193: I hadn't seen my father for, F1189: Mm mmhm. M1193: well, since he left, it'd be fifteen, sixteen years. So we, we thought oh well, we'll come out here, which didn't suit the people at home very well so F1189: Was your grandmother still alive? M1193: No, she was dead. But my aunt was. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm it's probably something I've regretted, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: ehm, because she died before I could get back again to see //her.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: Ehm. F1189: Now, on all these trips backwards and forwards, the UK and then coming here to New Zealand, //did you,// M1193: //Oh I came direct// from Ceylon to here. F1189: did you bring your books with you //on all those trips?// M1193: //Oh yes.// F1189: Hmm. M1193: Well a lot of those //Reader's// F1189: //Uh-huh.// M1193: Digest books came //from...// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: And //eh oh yeah, they have, yeah.// F1189: //So they, they've been round the world really.// M1193: Yes, well, I suppose books have. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And ehm, but unfortunately my father died before we got here. F1189: Oh. M1193: So that was, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: he died in November, we came here in January, F1189: Mmhm. //In nineteen// M1193: //before// F1189: sixty-five, //did you say?// M1193: //Yeah, he// he died in sixty-four. F1189: Uh-huh. //That was, that was unfortunate.// M1193: //So that was a bit of a// F1189: Mm. M1193: a bit of a crunch for everyone. //And ehm// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: But really, we've often talked about it, I don't think we've any regrets about coming out //here.// F1189: //Mm.// Did you ever consider anywhere else other than New Zealand? M1193: Yeah, well I- probably if I hadn't been married I'd have gone to either Kenya or erm Malaysia. F1189: And you would've stayed in tea planting? M1193: Yeah, I'd have stayed in tea planting, //yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: Because eh tea planting was just sort of beginning in Kenya at that time. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: [throat] I didn't really want to go to India. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: My father had spent half the war in India. F1189: Mm. So had heard something about India then? //Or had you read anything?// M1193: //No, it's just// eh it was too big. F1189: Mm. M1193: It ehm I thought, it was a vague idea we or I had that ehm I might have gone to Kenya. They were looking for planters with a bit of experience at that time. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: I see it's going quite well in Kenya now. They're still, they're growing tea properly now. F1189: Did lots of Scots become tea planters, were there lots of //them in Sri Lanka?// M1193: //Oh yes.// Yeah. //Th-th-they prefer-// F1189: //Proportionately how much?// M1193: they preferred us to the English, there's no question about that. F1189: Uh-huh. Now, why is that? M1193: Well, where we were there was three Scots people on, on one of the, on the estate I was on, ehm, in, we lived in a district //called// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: [?]Bajara[/?]. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm, there was quite a number of estates there. But in, in the well, put it this way, we had a Scottish rugby against England every year. F1189: [laugh] Uh-huh. M1193: Eh we always could produce fifteen Scots whereas the English were struggling to get their F1189: Mm. M1193: fifteen. So in the area we were, yeah, there was quite a lot of Scottish people. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: I think an awful lot of the estates were opened up by Scotsmen. F1189: Right. M1193: Ehm I've read the history of a few of them and eh //eh...// F1189: //Have you?// //Have you done that// M1193: //Yeah.// F1189: recently or did //did you do that when you were there? Mm// M1193: //No, no I did that when I was there.// F1189: Mm. M1193: Because we-we-, we'd also to learn the language F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Oh the Tamil language //which was the// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: language the, the workers //ehm,// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: well, they were Indian Tamil. //Indian, yeah.// F1189: //Mm.// Now how did you do that? Did you have to attend classes or...? M1193: No, we go- it's like everything, you had to read it, got a book on Tamil, a phrasebook. F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: And then we'd to go and do a, a verbal F1189: Mmhm. M1193: ehm examination on it each F1189: Mmhm. M1193: conversation, a thing like this. And ehm F1189: So did you ehm how did you get your hands on the histories of of of the tea planting in that part of the world? M1193: Well that was a bit of hand-me-down things really, it was [throat] I spoke to a couple of the older planters there and I said I'd like to //read up on the history of this.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: And ehm I got, I lent a lot of books //from people over there.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1193: Ehm. F1189: Did you do that generally for books amongst that community of people at the time? Did you //loan or swap?// M1193: //I did- I didn't eh// eh [exhale] not consciously, I just I, I got, I've got a book on eh ehm growing of tea and so ehm and that's, I've read that. But er it's, a lot of it's hand-me-down stuff, you know, from those F1189: Right, so, so you were given them but you never gave them back? [laugh] M1193: A lot of the planters that [throat] when I were there, when I was there, we were really coming to the end of the tea plantation system, F1189: Hmm. M1193: as they knew if because ehm there was no, cause there were a lot of ehm indigenous planters there too. F1189: Mm. M1193: Whereas ten years before I went there [throat] pardon me, there wouldn't have been any. //They would all// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: be European of some kind, Dutch or British or ehm whatever. //It was changing rapidly.// F1189: //Have you ever rea-// yeah, have you ever read erm Paul Scott's novels about the end of the Raj in India? M1193: No, I don't think I have. I've heard of it but no, //I haven't read that.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: It's, I've probably read more on the Raj, I've probably seen, since tel-television became popular, //but we// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: always watch F1189: Mmhm. M1193: those programmes on telly, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: ehm okay, that might not be quite so authen- they might be more dramatic than //authentic but ehm// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: it gives you a great insight //as to// F1189: //Mmhm.// //So what kind of television// M1193: //how things progress.// F1189: programmes would they be that you've liked to watch in that area? M1193: Well I must admit Jan and I, we al- we always watch Elizabethan, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: all the programmes we've had on that. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: The Boleyn girls, Henry the Eighth, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: recent ones. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm. Yeah, they're, I suppose, diverging a bit. F1189: Mm. M1193: What's that, that woman's name, Gabaldon, is it? Do, do you know her? //The author?// F1189: //No I don't.// Tell me about that. M1193: Oh well, she, she wrote, [third speaker clarifies name] Diane Gabaldon Gabaldon or something, I've got one there. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: She wrote ehm books about early America through the eyes of someone ehm Scottish chap who was, who was the Jacobite rebellion. For some unknown reason they, no she went through the barrier, went back in time. F1189: Ah right, now I think I have //heard of these.// M1193: //Yeah and// //she married// F1189: //Uh-huh// uh-huh. M1193: this chap. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: He was, he was living in that particular time but she, she went through the... F1189: Mm. M1193: And there's a series of books she wrote. And they're marvellous books. They're a big, great big thick things, five or six hundred //pages.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: And they're all based on fact as far as the actual historical //part of it goes.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: And eh they're very very very good books. F1189: So you've particularly enjoyed them? M1193: I did, yeah, they're great books. F1189: Where do you get them from, David? M1193: Ehm we bought them. F1189: Right. M1193: We had originally got them from the library, I think. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And got them given to us, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: I think, if I remember rightly. But we've read most of those. F1189: Mmhm so a bit of everything. M1193: Yeah, well, it's, it's... but I'm not a great fan for I don't like scientific books, I've never been a fan, outer space or, what's, what's up there doesn't interest me. Mm. F1189: Now before you came to New Zealand ehm had you read anything about this country? M1193: Ah the only, the only part I got about, was when Dad wrote home about it. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: He was absolutely eh flabbergasted, he actually came to Mosgiel. Ehm my stepmother, his aunt lived in Mosgiel. //And they were// F1189: //Mmhm// //mmhm.// M1193: //quite a sort of// well-known family in //the area.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: But he was absolutely flabbergasted, he came down to Gordon Road and there was absolutely nothing there [laugh]. F1189: Mm. M1193: And he was F1189: Was your stepmother a New Zealander then? Or? M1193: No. F1189: No, just you //had family here.// M1193: //She// //she was born in England.// F1189: //Mm mm hmm.// M1193: Eh but she lived all her //life in Scotland.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: Her father, her family lived in Scotland. F1189: Mm. M1193: It was ehm her mother's sister //married.// F1189: //Ah right,// I see uh-huh. M1193: He, this chap was a seaman, he was a F1189: Mm. M1193: he was a skipper //of some form,// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: I'm not a hundred per cent sure. Eh he was a New Zealander, he came out here. F1189: So did your, your father form an impression about New Zealand then? //It was favourable// M1193: //Yeah, yeah.// F1189: or otherwise. M1193: But he said, he said `What the hell have I come to?' F1189: [laugh] So it wasn't favourable? [laugh] M1193: I don't think he-, to be honest, I don't think he settled at all. F1189: Hmm. M1193: To be truthful eh he ehm I think his, his health wasn't particularly ehm brilliant. He had heart problems. That's probably where I get the hereditary part of it. Er that's what he di-died of just before we came here. F1189: So, you couldn't have had an entirely, from what you'd read anyway in letters, an entirely //positive image// M1193: //Not, not,// F1189: of where you were //coming to.// M1193: //Not really.// I mean I think we came, as I said it's always been my sort of passion //just// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: to see what F1189: See it for yourself. M1193: Yeah, the other thing was of course we thought oh yeah we could hop off back to UK but it wasn't //quite as easy as that. [laugh]// F1189: //[laugh]// M1193: Ehm, but I don't think I've, I've never really had any regrets. But it's the old story, wh-when you emigrate it's always us that have got to go home. They don't come out here. My sister wouldn't fly out here. My brother's been out once I must admit but ehm if we want to see them it's basically we've got to go home. F1189: Now why do you think that is? Why do you think that happened? M1193: Oh I've thought about it but I've never really... whether it's they can't be bothered getting off their bum and coming out here or whether it's the money wise. I don't think it's money because my brother and sister are pretty well-off I would imagine. Ehm. So it makes you think they don't particularly want to, that's [laugh] as you get down to, you get down to it, that's probably the thing. F1189: On the other hand though, you seem to have wanted to travel so M1193: Well I've //always// F1189: //Would you say that's// maybe the difference? //Those who stay home, yeah.// M1193: //Yeah, I've always wanted to travel, I must admit.// I didn't think twice about going to Ceylon, I didn't even think of what the repercussions would be, I just wanted to go. And worry about it when I got there ehm. F1189: Have you ever been homesick? M1193: Oh the odd occasion I think, yes. Ehm I was homesick when my grandmother died I must admit. And also when Peggy died. Ehm it just wasn't opportune for us. When, when my grandmother died I was just two years into my tour of Ceylon. Ehm I wouldn't have been allowed. F1189: Mm. M1193: I suppo-, if I'd asked them, I'd have gone home but there again, in nineteen fifty-odd, it, flights and flying wasn't quite the same. F1189: Mmhm. Now how did you get here? M1193: Uh well we came, we flew. F1189: Now that was exciting. //even in nineteen sixty-five.// M1193: //Yeah [laugh].// //It was exciting alright.// F1189: //[laugh]// M1193: We arrived in Singapore and ehm we were staying in Raffles hotel. Went to buy a drink. So I gave him a travellers' cheques, he said `I can't cash those'. But I looked at it, payable in New Zealand only. So we'd no money. F1189: No drink. //[laugh]// M1193: //No, we got the drink, we'd had the drink by this time.// I was going to get another one. Eh but I managed, I had some Ceylon money //which we// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: exchanged somehow or other, I can't remember all the ins and outs, but it rather shattered our our plans because we were going to buy us a few presents in Singapore, //but// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: didn't buy anything. So that was the first sort of hiccup. F1189: Mm. M1193: But from then on we ehm, we did okay. Having not seen my stepmother for fifty odd years we seemed to, we settled in very well. Jan-. F1189: I wanted to ask you about airports then cause that must have been your first experience of civilian airports //anyway?// M1193: //Oh yes.// Yeah, it was a bit. F1189: Ehm can you remember if they, they sold books in airports at that time? M1193: At Singapore they probably would. F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: Ehm but we came I think it was, was it Darwin, I think we landed [laugh] and Darwin was only a tin shack. //[third speaker adds that it was the middle of the night]// F1189: //[laugh]// M1193: And then we went from there to F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: to Sydney it //was in// F1189: //Uh-huh.// M1193: in the end. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: I would imagine there probably was, erm. Well there'd be a newspaper I would imagine. //You'd be able to get a// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: newspaper I would think. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: [throat] F1189: Do you recall reading anything on that trip? M1193: Hmm? F1189: On that, that flying trip, do you recall reading anything? //Or taking a book with you?// M1193: //Oh well, there, I// probably read the, the usual books they passed around which, probably mainly Time magazine or F1189: [laugh] M1193: National Geographic F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: in those days, which they passed around. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Or I might have read something on Australia or //something, or// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: probably New Zealand maybe to some extent. F1189: Mmhm. Yes uh-huh did you get any emigration literature? M1193: Oh I think they were pretty good at giving you what was happening in the country or //what would// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: be in the country but ehm not the way it is nowadays. F1189: Mm. M1193: You didn't, you don't get, advertising brochures //like// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: you do now. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: [throat] Not that I can remember of anyway. F1189: I just wondered if they gave you any pamphlets about what to //expect when you got here.// M1193: //What to do, where to go.// I don't think they did in those days. We were in a DC, whatever it was, F1189: Mm. M1193: number one to ten, which one it was, I'm not sure. Ehm, no we, I wasn't really all that interested cause it was a, it was a pretty busy flight, //if I remember rightly.// F1189: //Mm mm.// So you didn't really know what you were coming to? M1193: Well not really, not really, we were ehm, we were probably better off than my father was when he arrived F1189: Mm. M1193: originally. Ehm of course they arrived by ship, of course eh they actually drove F1189: Mm. M1193: down from Auckland. Ehm. Eh. F1189: Did you always know you were coming to this area, to Otago? M1193: No. //No.// F1189: //You didn't.// M1193: We arrived in ehm Christchurch, //and ehm// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: that's where our first baby was born in //Christchurch.// F1189: //Right,// I see uh-huh. M1193: Ehm. F1189: And did you find work there or had //you lined that// M1193: //I did.// F1189: up before? M1193: No, I hadn't lined anything up. //No.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: That was what, that was a bit ehm up in the air, my father was going to arrange stuff but of course he couldn't. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: He wasn't there. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And ehm I thought his friend was going to carry on and [inaudible] but he obviously didn't so I didn't really know. I, I just started looking myself. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: But it wasn't too difficult to get work. F1189: Mmhm. Well, what kind of work did //you get, David?// M1193: //Well, I// I, I took a eh job as a traveller cause then again I thought oh I'll see a bit of the country [laugh] while, eh for free. //basically.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: And I stayed, I was in Christchurch for a while. Er we rented a house there and ehm then I got a transfer down to Dunedin. F1189: Right, so how long was that before you got transferred down? M1193: Oh. F1189: Mm. M1193: th- two, three years //sixty-seven, was it?// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: [third speaker confirms details] Yeah. F1189: Mm. M1193: sixty-six maybe, thereabouts anyway. And then that's when my second daughter //was born.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. Now, what appealed to you then, cause you stayed, what appealed to you about New Zealand? M1193: Well, I liked this area. We moved out here from Dunedin on purpose, ehm because I didn't like to work and live in the sort of same ehm... In those days the old south road F1189: Mmhm. M1193: was quite different from, well you can still see, you can still come round the old road F1189: Mmhm. M1193: to Dunedin. //And ehm// F1189: //I should just say that// this, this is, Mosgiel's inland ehm Ot-Otago. //er.// M1193: //Well, it is, it's// but I knew Dad and Mum had lived here. They had lived here for F1189: Mmhm. M1193: four, five years, I think. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Before they moved to Invercargill. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: So in the end we came out here and F1189: Mmhm. Now the-this part of New Zealand, really, has many a Scottish M1193: Oh, it has. //yeah,// F1189: //associations.// M1193: there's a lot of Scots people live here, yeah. Ehm. F1189: Was that in any way an a-an attraction for you? M1193: No, I think the main attraction probably was the fact that Dad, they had lived here. F1189: Hmm. M1193: And I had connections here through them because they're cousins or ehm second cousins. //or whatever.// F1189: //Ah right, I see.// M1193: And they were uh they were always... F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: And my mother's, well probably the best friend she had, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: in this area, they were still living here. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: They owned a shop. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: which Mum worked in. F1189: So that made things easier? M1193: Oh it made it a lot easier, very, very helpful people. Ehm, especially the lady, she was extre-extremely good to us and the kids. Always brought presents and suchlike for the ki- children. Eh a very, very nice lady So we really had, and then we fitted in pretty well. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: We even- we, the kids lived more or less rather like me, across the road from the school. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm, eh the high school was pretty close by, the Taieri High School. So they, everything revolved round, we didn't have to go into Dunedin F1189: Mmhm. M1193: ehm for anything really. The shops were all, clothing shops, shoe shops, we don't have a proper shoe shop but we've got a sort of ehm one of the, one of those modern shoe shops. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Eh. F1189: Now there used to be a wool mill out here at, at //Mosgiel?// M1193: //Mm sorry?// F1189: There used to be a wool mill out here at Mosgiel. M1193: Oh there is, it's if you, oh, the, the, the old mill house is just up //there on your, on the other side of the road.// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm mmhm mmhm.// M1193: Ehm, yes, the Mosgiel wool mill, in fact I worked for them for a while. F1189: Did you? What did you do? M1193: Intern. I looked after the stock control, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: ehm of the knitwear division. F1189: Mm. M1193: But that went bust. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And then I, I finished working for the Mosgiel burgh council. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Before they amalgamated with Dunedin city council, so.... I enjoyed work- enjoyed working here. //And I wouldn't// F1189: //Right, you// M1193: particularly want to live anywhere else, F1189: Mm. M1193: in, you know, in Dun- in New Zealand, or even Dunedin for that matter. You get used to a place and where we are now I can walk everywhere I want to go. //Eh.// F1189: //Well, that's// an advantage I think. M1193: Well, you see //[inaudible]// F1189: //New Zealanders are// awfully fond of //cars// M1193: //Yeah.// F1189: I think. //[laugh]// M1193: //Oh they are, far too fond of it.// //Ehm.// F1189: //Now// M1193: And I'm sure we all use the bus service //into Dunedin more frequently// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1193: than we used to. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm. No, I've enjoyed it. //It's-.// F1189: //So you've no regrets then?// M1193: Oh it-it's the old usual thing, everyone has regrets like not, not being able to pick up the phone and s-say to your brother `I'll see you in half an hour'. Ehm, but now with ehm the eh eh the internet and telexing, we telex, I telex my sister quite a lot. Texting, not telexing. [laugh] F1189: [laugh] M1193: But ehm F1189: Now, how long was it then before you discovered the library in Dunedin `cause you, you've been a library user or you were in //Glasgow.// M1193: //Well, I've al-// I've always known where the library was in //Dunedin.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. M1193: We used to go there. We didn't actually live in Dunedin itself for very long. Ehm. We moved out //to// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: eh to Mosgiel. F1189: Well, I notice you've got a, //there's a branch// M1193: //Oh, it's a good li-.// F1189: library here, isn't M1193: Yeah, well that's where I used to, they used to, what they call the, the Mosgiel burgh council //sort of// F1189: //uh-huh// M1193: owned that, //built that library.// F1189: //Uh-huh uh-huh.// //I might go round and// M1193: //It's// F1189: and have a wee //look at it.// M1193: //Oh it's a nice library,// F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: beautiful place. F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: Ehm. F1189: So did you join there //fairly quickly?// M1193: //Yeah, oh yeah, I'm a member of,// well, I've been there for a long time. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: We always made sure the children //both,// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: they all read now and they always used to read when they were younger. And I think they still do. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm. F1189: How did you find what was on offer in, in the Mosgiel library then compared to what you'd been used to in the UK? M1193: I think, funnily enough I, I think the system's just the same really. You get fiction, you get non-fiction, history. Ehm. //It was// F1189: //Did you carry on// reading much the same things that you had? M1193: Yes I probably did. Ehm probably more so, `cause I got [throat] more involved with the sort of history. A lot of the stuff I used, that we've watched on telly, I thought, hell, I must read a bit more about that. F1189: So this is British history then? M1193: Yeah. F1189: Right. M1193: I've not really been interested too much in, I've read a bit about New Zealand history th-that's not, I've got ehm a couple of good books on New Zealand ehm history. F1189: Do you own them, David? M1193: Yeah, yeah cha- one by a chap, King, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: who just, he died not long after he'd written the book. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: I haven't read it all yet. //It's a,// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: It's a good book. F1189: Oh so that was something you got recently? M1193: Yeah, I would oh I got it as a Christmas or birthday present //a couple of years ago.// F1189: //Right uh-huh uh-huh.// M1193: Ehm, but those are the bits an-. F1189: So where do you feel your history fits in then? M1193: My own personal history? F1189: Uh-huh. Is that why you're still keener to read about British history? M1193: Well, I think as one gets older we tend to think `I'd like to know where I came from'. F1189: Hmm. M1193: Ehm, it's a very, very, not only is it really difficult //but it's// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: very expensive. I've got onto the Scottish, you know, archaeological people and eh what do they call themselves? //Yeah.// F1189: //Oh, Scotland's People?// Mm. M1193: And, hell it's expensive. F1189: Mmhm it is, yes. M1193: Forty pounds here and fifty pounds there. F1189: Mmhm. Have you read anything at all about researching your family tree? M1193: I don't, yeah well I, there is, there is a Scottish ehm thing on the internet. F1189: Mm. M1193: I read it for a while but I thought, hell this is going to cost a lot of money and then I didn't bother //after that.// F1189: //Mm.// Right. //I just// M1193: //Eh.// F1189: wondered maybe if there'd been anything like that available for you in the library or the bookshops round about here, //books on how to do it.// M1193: //Well, I must admit I haven't actually// gone into the library or er I haven't researched it enough possibly, concentrated on it //enough.// F1189: //Mm.// Oh well there's //plenty of time yet [laugh].// M1193: //I lose patience with those things.// //I haven't// F1189: //Now.// M1193: got the concentration. F1189: When you came here did you, when you were in sales //tha-that's// M1193: //Yeah.// F1189: what you were working in. Did you join any of the, the Scottish organisations //that are around here?// M1193: //No.// No, it's, I regret not. Ehm. I don't know why I didn't to be honest. I just didn't particularly want to... I wasn't particularly keen on Scottish country dancing I must admit. F1189: [laugh] M1193: The Highland Fling doesn't [laugh] F1189: [laugh] M1193: or the Dashing White Sergeant. F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: Ehm, no, I didn't really miss them that much. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm I didn't join the Burns club, an awful lot of Scottish people did, F1189: Hmm. M1193: eh even though I did play the bagpipes eh. F1189: Did you? Now you never told me that. //[laugh]// M1193: //Ah well those things [?]come[/?].// Up to Boys' Brigade standard. //That was, that// F1189: //Uh-huh right.// M1193: was my piping. F1189: And no one came round and said `But you must join'? [laugh] M1193: No they didn't, funnily enough, eh when I, when I ehm went into the Mosgiel burgh council, a few of the councillors, F1189: Mm. M1193: er one person in particular, a lady councillor, //she was the// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: president F1189: Mmhm. M1193: of the Scottish Society out here. And she was most disappointed that I didn't [laugh] show any great interest in it. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: Ehm, I can't honestly tell you why to be truthful. F1189: Well, I suppose M1193: Well, Jan, my wife's English of course. //And ehm// F1189: //Uh-huh.// Ah right uh-huh. M1193: er. F1189: Do you think your loyalties were divided? M1193: I think they were. //I,// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: I thought, well I can't //be too// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: patriotic or patriotic. Ehm so I didn't bother //too much.// F1189: //Mm.// What about Burns, I mean, what are your feelings //about that kind// M1193: //Oh Robbie Burns.// F1189: of ehm Scottish //literature?// M1193: //Well, I-// I was always brought up, F1189: Mm. M1193: my old grandmother th-thought Burns was an absolute ehm rogue and rascal and whatever you want to call it. But, I read something recently, we had oh there's, it's the Burns centenary. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And I was reading, there again, in this local paper F1189: Mmhm. M1193: ehm that he was actually a very clever, er very well-educated bloke for his, his time. And I never even realised that. F1189: Mm. M1193: All I'd read about him was that he was a... all his debauchery and his drinking [laugh], F1189: [laugh] M1193: womanising, whatever he was, but ehm F1189: Now would that have been a, a, is that something y-y-you just know you've heard? Or you, you actually recall reading about? M1193: No, it's something I've heard. F1189: Mm //mmhm.// M1193: //Pure and simple.// It's a hand-me-down. F1189: Mm. M1193: And when you're impressionable, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: it tends to stick. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: It's like the old drinking, Scottish drinking habit. F1189: Yes. M1193: Pubs. My grandmother //was// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: `cause I tend to think my grandfather drank too much `cause //he died// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: quite young. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And that's, yeah, F1189: Mm. M1193: an abhorrence of drink, we weren't allowed drink in the house. F1189: Right. //Mm. Mmhm.// M1193: //Except maybe port or sherry or something like that.// F1189: For medicinal purposes? M1193: Yeah, of course [laugh]. F1189: Now what about things like New Year there, then, since you mention drink? M1193: Yeah, well we, we celebrated it to the extent of probably having a sherry //or port// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: There was no whisky. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Well, of course there was ehm we-we used to do first-footing as the old thing and F1189: Mm. M1193: my brother was, he was dark, as I am, or was, fair. And he'd had his, he always took the coal out and brought it back in again. [laugh] That was New Year. F1189: [laugh] M1193: Eh well, we went first-footing in, //in those days, I used,// F1189: //[cough]Mmhm.// M1193: used to go out in a group. F1189: Mm. M1193: But it was always soft drink we drank. //never// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: I never drank until I went into the RAF and even then it was er very very rare. F1189: Mm mmhm. You would see more of that though in the, in an emigré community like, //like, such// M1193: //Oh yeah, yeah.// F1189: as there was with the tea planters. M1193: Yeah, well it's I actually drank, I probably drank brandy in Ceylon, F1189: Mm. M1193: as opposed to whisky. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm. But I was never a big drinker. F1189: Mm. M1193: I never drank, I don't drink a lot now. F1189: Mmhm. //No.// M1193: //Probably drink// wine more than anything else. F1189: Yes uh-huh. Now, what about those winter festivals because [laugh] it's winter back in the UK but it's summer here now, so M1193: Yeah, well. F1189: what changes have there been for you in, in celebrating them? M1193: That's something even with my time, I've spent more time out of Scotland than in it. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: I still tend to think of this time of year as winter. F1189: Mm. M1193: It's funny, it's even although it's completely opposite. I've never actually got round to thinking of December as, as summer. And I've, I've spoken to a few of er Scottish people I know and these tend to say the same, that ehm celebrating Christmas in, in the summer time. Even in Ceylon I never enjoyed it, I, I found it peculiar. Ehm but F1189: So, so New Year //here, do you, do you,// M1193: //It's a completely different thing.// //Well, we// F1189: //do the first-footing or// M1193: No. //No, no, you see// F1189: //bring in the New Year?// M1193: it's ehm it's a matter of eh drink and driving of //course is a// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: big thing. They're not quite as strict as they are in UK but I think it's coming to that. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: But, the RSA, the Returned Servicemen's Club, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: we, I've been there a few times and just a matter of walking back and forward. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: We didn't take the car. Ehm my car's only used two or three times a week. F1189: I just wondered ehm //if there's any of the tartan and the heather,// M1193: //The first-footing, no, no.// F1189: even at Hogmanay in this country. M1193: No, there's, ah well there would be ehm, the fanatical Burns F1189: Mm. M1193: Club people, I would imagine they do, I haven- haven't experienced that. Ehm but at the, a lot of Scottish people go to the, the RSA to celebrate New Year. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: And we just do the usual thing and twelve o'clock you have Auld Lang Syne and that's, that's about it, then you go home. //[laugh]// F1189: //Still a bit// Scottish then? //[laugh]// M1193: //Oh yeah,// yeah, this is, //this, th-this town// F1189: //Although that's international now, isn't it?// M1193: is actually quite Scottish. F1189: Mm mm. M1193: Er the mill is Scottish. //It's ehm// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: oh yeah, a lot of things around here, it's eh I think the, the original Invermay agricultural training. F1189: Mm. M1193: I'm sure that was a bit Scottish to start with. And that's been going on for a long long time. F1189: Now, when you had your children, your wee girls, did you ever encourage them to read anything //about// M1193: //Oh yes.// F1189: back home? M1193: Well, we've al-always tried to get them interested in that, erm, I wouldn't say we fanatically said `You must read this or you must read that'. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm they're probably more interested now, once they're getting a bit older and ehm but while they were at school they weren't particularly interested. They got stuff from home. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm. They used to get Christmas presents. And that was a big thing, getting Christmas presents from UK [inaudible]. F1189: Did they get books at all? M1193: Yeah, they probably did. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm, probably got a, books from home and th-th-the weight would be the biggest problem with that. //because it's,// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: you paid on weight. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm. I'm not sure just what books they got at Christmas eh. Probably the usual girls' annuals or whatever they were. Ehm [throat]. F1189: Did you continue to get newspapers from, from back in the UK? M1193: For a while and then we stopped them. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: We didn't see mu-, see, I can get it on the internet, I can look up Daily Express on the internet now if I want to [laugh]. F1189: And do you? M1193: Oh if, if I'm feeling a bit morose about something [laugh] I'll, I'll switch it on but I haven't done it for a while. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Yeah, it's a great, it, it's a great link, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: the internet, it's, it's a great learner too, it teaches you all sorts of things. F1189: Are you still interested in current affairs M1193: Yeah. F1189: in the UK? //or in Scotland in particular?// M1193: //Yeah I am, yeah I am, yeah I am, in Scotland.// //[throat]// F1189: //Hmm.// M1193: Ehm, I don't think we'll ever become completely independent but ehm we've at least got half-way there. F1189: Ah now you've followed the whole parliament thing then, have you? M1193: Oh my sister, when I talk to her on the phone, she gives me all the business, what's going on. F1189: Mm. M1193: She's a red hot tory if ever there was one. F1189: [laugh] M1193: [laugh] F1189: I was about to say that the Express is a Conservative paper. M1193: Yeah, well that's the way we were brought up. F1189: Uh-huh uh-huh. M1193: Don't ask me why because we weren't wealthy or anything. [laugh] F1189: No, Uh-huh. M1193: Ehm I don't know why my grandmother was, was //anti-Labour.// F1189: //It's interesting that you've stuck// with the Express then. M1193: I don't even know, is the Sunday Ex- I don't think it's available, is it now? Is the Sunday Express still available? F1189: It is, yes. //It is.// M1193: //Is it really?// //Oh.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: You can actually buy those papers, there's a, there's a shop. I've, can't remember where it is. There's a shop in Dunedin or, where you can buy all those overseas papers if you want. F1189: Mmhm. Eh well, there's one place near where I'm staying called the Edinburgh News. M1193: Oh yeah. Oh you're staying down in the motel down //there?// F1189: //Uh-huh.// M1193: Ah. F1189: Ehm. That, that might be it. And I certainly have noticed Scottish magazines //in-// M1193: //Yeah I'm,// yes, I'm oh that's interesting. F1189: and things like eh The People's Friend. M1193: Oh yeah. //Good grief.// F1189: //[laugh]// [laugh] M1193: That's, that's ancient. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: It's like the Woman, British Woman's Weekly. F1189: Yes indeed, that's there too. M1193: I used to read that. F1189: Uh-huh did you? M1193: Oh my grandmother used to get it. F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: [laugh] I used to sneak and read some of it. //Mm.// F1189: //Do you remember// anything about reading that? M1193: All I can remember is the front page, it was always very old-fashioned. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm. It had gardening things in it, //and,// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: if I remember rightly, I was interested in gardening. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: We lived in the bottom flat so I looked after the garden which was just about the width of that path there. F1189: Postage stamp //size?// M1193: //Yeah.// F1189: Yes uh-huh. Now, during your lifetime then, since you mention hobby books like that. Ehm I've had a look at what's popular in New Zealand and ehm and gardening is, does seem to be. //And so does cookery.// M1193: //Oh.// Eh fishing's one of the biggest sports in New Zealand, //I'd say.// F1189: //Right uh-huh.// //And sports.// M1193: //Especially white-baiting.// //[laugh]// F1189: //Right,// uh-huh. M1193: Ehm. I think they just about do everything, cricket, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: er golf's very, //very, I// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: play a bit of golf, or I used to. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm, most sports ehm squash is played, tennis is played. F1189: Have you carried on since you've been here reading books like that about sports and M1193: Well I, as I say I've, I've never, I don't read the analytical sports books where it //tells you// F1189: //Mm// mm. M1193: `A' played ninety-nine games for the All Blacks, that doesn't really interest me. Eh, or even individuals. F1189: Mm. M1193: Cricket books are different in as much, rugby books are purely, as far as I can see, al-, except the book on the All Blacks, I //must admit I've// F1189: //Mm mm.// M1193: I used to have a book eh The All Blacks, I gave it away to a friend //of mine down the road there.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: `Cause his father was an All Black. F1189: Uh-huh? M1193: And [throat] I like reading the old books, rather than the present day, I'm still on the history. F1189: [laugh] Yes. M1193: Hanker after the history of it. //Er.// F1189: //Now,// one o- one of the, the terms of history that, that would seem to be popular here is ehm aspects of royalty and and the history //of the Commonwealth.// M1193: //Oh well, yeah.// There-there's, there is a bit of that, isn't //there?// F1189: //Mmhm.// Does that interest you at all? M1193: Well it's, to the, to the point of how much it's really beneficial to places like New Zealand //or Australia, I mean they're so,// F1189: //Mm mm.// M1193: I don't think it would matter a damn if they separated the head from the body if you want to call it that, I don't think it made a lot of difference. F1189: No, mm. M1193: It'd still have a Governor General or whatever you want to call it. F1189: So you're not a royalist then? M1193: Oh well, this is where my Scottish part comes in [laugh]. I'm not a royal- I'm not a royalist from the English point of view. Ehm. No, not really, I don't really admire Prince Charles at all. As a person, I th- I think he's... Although, Queen Elizabeth, she's a pretty stubborn, strong wo- eh woman but I've never liked her type, she's oh it goes back the Scottish F1189: Mm. M1193: Elizabeth the First and [laugh] F1189: Now, how do you keep in touch with Scottish news then? M1193: Well I mainly read, what I read basically [throat] ehm I don't get a lot of information from home F1189: Mm. M1193: in that respect now because I'm too far away. Ehm I've lost contact with m-my main roots, my own personal roots, er my friends and that sort of thing. I'm probably more attached to the English side than, `cause the friend I had in Ceylon, he was very much English. F1189: Mm. M1193: And we correspond occasionally with him, we've bee- we went to see them in 2001. He lives down in Bournemouth. And, yes I'm more that way inclined. F1189: I-I-I just wondered about if it was the the Express that kept you in touch with, say, things about //the Parliament.// M1193: //Oh we haven't seen// //[throat] I haven't really seen the Express for...// F1189: //[throat]// M1193: No, it doesn't. I sometimes re-read the bulletins on how things are going in bits and places [?]where I was[/?]. I don't read it as a matter of fact. //I just,// F1189: //Right.// Mmhm. M1193: if I'm on there //[inaudible]// F1189: //Do you get a bit of that// kind of news in New Zealand then? //On the// M1193: //Well,// F1189: television or in the newspaper? M1193: to be honest, New Zealand erm news is really not world news, it's, it's, we've got Sky, I sometimes switch onto the news in Britain or even CNN. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And they give us sometimes even more news about New Zealand, as much //as about// F1189: //[laugh]// M1193: anything else, it's quite strange. //I don't think// F1189: //Would that be// M1193: the news in New Zealand is very good at all, to be honest. I don't particularly think it's... F1189: So how do you think the, the New Zealand newspapers compare to, //what you can get in the UK?// M1193: //Well the new actually newspapers are// quite good. We-we-we get our world ehm pull-out F1189: Mmhm. M1193: ehm of what's going on. I think it's once a week it comes out. And you can pick up what's on that. //Ehm,// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: the, the big thing we've got on at the moment on our news of course is the bushfires in Australia. F1189: Mm. M1193: I don't, I don't know how that, how that's been done in Britain, I would imagine it's just as good. F1189: I was thinking maybe about things like ehm the war in Afghanistan and M1193: Well there again, I learnt more about that from F1189: `Cause I think New Zealanders are involved in //that too.// M1193: //Yeah, they are, yeah.// F1189: Mmhm. M1193: [throat] I learnt more about that from two or three episodes of a programme that was put on by... oh what the hell's his name? Chap who used to be in Eastenders. Bald-headed. He followed a unit of F1189: Mmhm. M1193: the Anglians, I think they were called. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Regiment. //Ehm.// F1189: //Do you watch Eastenders,// by the way, I must //ask.// M1193: //No.// F1189: [laugh] What about Coronation Street? M1193: Ah yes we're pretty ardent Coronation fans. F1189: [laugh] M1193: Much to much of my friends' horror. I would say, I like that sort of thing, it's F1189: Mmhm. M1193: relaxation, //you don't,// F1189: //Uh-huh.// I'm a big Corrie fan so //you don't have to apologise [laugh].// M1193: //I like, I like Coronation Street.// But East- I did watch Eastenders for //a while but// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: they went off. Ehm I believe they're back, I'm not quite //sure.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. M1193: But I, I'm a great eh The Bill fan, I like watching The Bill. F1189: Right. You do get a lot of British programming here. //I, I have noticed that.// M1193: //Well, on, on the// Sky you can get UK TV, but it's it's ehm four or five years old. F1189: Mmhm yes. M1193: It basically doesn't matter if, F1189: Mm. M1193: if I haven't seen, so. F1189: And what about the, the BBC World News? M1193: Oh that's //to date.// F1189: //Do you watch that?// M1193: I have sa- not very often. //But we// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: do watch it. F1189: Mm. M1193: We sometimes //watch...// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: I should really watch it more than I do. F1189: Mmhm. Now, where is home for you now, David? M1193: Oh it would have to be here. Eh there's no no argument there at all. Ehm. This is, this is where I am and this is it really and eh Apart from the fact I couldn't afford to live in the UK, it's far too expensive. I couldn't even buy a house. F1189: You can say that again. //[laugh]// M1193: //Oh the// prices. F1189: Mmhm. Would you ever have considered going back? M1193: No, if ehm not to stay, no I don- I don't really think I'd, unless I had the money. And that's pure fantasy, you know you, couple of million you could buy a house there and live there six months, that's nonsense. F1189: Hmm. M1193: I think if truth be known, if I'd known what Australia was like ehm twenty, twenty-five years ago I might have been tempted to go there. F1189: Mm. M1193: `Cause it's the climate I like. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: It's, I couldn't go back to the cold in Britain, no, never. Ehm I went home. The twice I've been home was in the summer. Spring, summer, //um// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: leading onto winter. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And eh gets to September and it's getting a bit cold. F1189: Now, how was that when you went back home? How did you find things there? M1193: Well, it's ehm My first trip was 1991. //Ehm.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: That was the summer I picked, the time I was there from May till July, //I think it was.// F1189: //Mm mmhm.// M1193: Thereabouts. And ehm I still find it cool, I must say, it's ehm but the atmosphere or, or the heat there is quite different from here. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: This is not good this heat. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: You really do need to cover up. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Er Britain, it's quite different, it's much better, it's much more pleasant. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And even, yes it's, even Ceylon, it wasn't all that bad. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: We never used to wear F1189: You must have seen some changes though when you M1193: Well. //certainly in Glasgow `cause// F1189: //you got to Glasgow?// M1193: my brother, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: he travelled up and down Scotland quite a bit and I remember him. He says, `Oh I'm going to Aberdeen tomorrow.' I said, he said, `Do you want to come?' And then I said, `Where do you stay?' He says `Oh no, I'll come back.' And went straight up the motorway //to Aberdeen,// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: did his rounds, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: then rolled back by eight o'clock at night. F1189: And you were surprised //by that?// M1193: //Oh I was amazed, I// [laugh] `cause when I was there it was, I mean even going to Edinburgh was a, was a big journey, thirty-four miles or something. I used to go there with the rugby, you know, school tr- watch Scotland playing at Murrayfield and that sort of thing. F1189: Do you think people then, Scots who have come over here, cling to a sort of outmoded vision of what Scotland's //like?// M1193: //Well, well,// my experience of the, the Scottish people I know ehm, I've not any idea of why ha-, you know, why half of them came. Some of them were br-, some people were brought out by firms. F1189: Mm. M1193: The mill, the mill brought out people and ehm Cadbury, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Fry in Dunedin. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm I know two or three English [?]pals[/?] at that golf club who, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: specially brought out F1189: Mmhm. M1193: for their expertise as engineers or whatever //it was.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: Ehm, but other than that, the, the Scottish friends I've got, erm, I'm a member of the the Masonic lodge here. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And, well two of them, I wouldn't have a clue how they were brought out here. Ehm. F1189: Family often, family connections, I think. M1193: Well that, F1189: Mm. M1193: that could be this, in one of the cases it could be true er it could be true. But ehm most of the ones I've ehm spoken to don't regret coming here. As one of them said to me, `It would be too bad if I did.' //[laugh] I can't go back.// F1189: //[laugh]// Now could I just, before we finish, ask you about some very specific books and authors that have a, a Scottish association. M1193: Scottish //association?// F1189: //Yeah.// And then, if you don't mind, I wouldn't mind looking at a couple of your Boys' Brigade prizes. M1193: Yeah, you can have a look at the F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: books in there that //ehm, now.// F1189: //And then we'll finish, David, `cause// you've, you've done extremely well, awfully grateful to you. M1193: [laugh] It's, well, I suppose Robert Louis Stevenson. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: `Treasure Island'. F1189: Now, you mentioned Robert Louis Steve-. Would `Treasure Island' be your favourite? M1193: Yeah, well it's probably the most //popular.// F1189: //Mmhm// mmhm. M1193: Robert Louis Stevenson was a funny person. F1189: Mm. M1193: Ehm, he wrote his own way, I suppose. //He did.// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: All his books weren't quite readable I don't think. But I like `Treasure Island'. But I also liked `The Thirty-Nine Steps', was a good, I read that quite early on. F1189: Now what about the poetry of Robert Burns? `Cause you mentioned //the// M1193: //Apart from the fact I couldn't// F1189: ehm, M1193: The language was a //bit too difficult for me.// F1189: //Did you ever own a, did you ever// own a book of his poetry? M1193: I think I've st- I think I might have. We certainly used to have one at home, I know that. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: Ehm. F1189: You're not a fan, I can tell that. //But// M1193: //No, I'm not,// I'm not a fan. //Mainly// F1189: //Uh-huh.// M1193: because the way he was put over to me //and I// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: think that's, //as Gra- as Gran// F1189: //Has coloured your vision.// M1193: used to say, `Oh he', she says, `All he did was drink F1189: [laugh] //The demon drink.// M1193: //and womanise'.// //Yeah.// F1189: //Yes.// [laugh] //Ehm.// M1193: //So.// Yeah, I must admit F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: I've read a few things now and he, he was a clever bloke. F1189: Mmhm. Did you carry on with your association, by the way, with the Church of Scotland here or //did you give up on it?// M1193: //Oh I've more or less// given that up, that's, F1189: Mm. M1193: it's not a subject I like to get into I must admit because religion is something personal, //shall we say?// F1189: //That's fine.// //No problem.// M1193: //I ehm// ehm the reasons I gave up were pretty vague. F1189: Mmhm. It's just that, you know, there are a number of very prominent presbyterian churches here. //And there are lots of Scots// M1193: //Oh yeah there's, there's// F1189: and people of Scottish ex- heritage //join that. Uh-huh uh-huh.// M1193: //We've got the the East Taieri Presbyterian Church and// cemetery. F1189: Uh-huh. M1193: And ehm I very often, well very often, we use- we used to live up in that end of town. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Then we had a dog and we used to walk it. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And we used to often walk through the cemetery looking at all the names of the families that, you know, made Mosgiel. F1189: Lots of Scots ones I would imagine. M1193: Oh yeah, very much so. Yes, there's no doubt about that. F1189: Now before we leave Robert Louis Stevenson ehm //Did you ever have// M1193: //Oh.// F1189: `A Child's Garden of Verses' when you were small? Do you remember that? M1193: No, not really. My mind's a bit blank when it F1189: Mmhm. M1193: eh comes to... The only books I remember reading during the //war// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: would be Biggles mainly. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: I'm not quite //sure when-.// F1189: //He was very English.// M1193: Is that right? F1189: Yes, I think so, well I associate him with a certain type of English masculinity. M1193: Oh yeah, I see what you mean. //Yeah.// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: Yeah. I can't think of any other books I used to read. F1189: What about ehm since you mentioned J- eh John Buchan, the likes of Neil Gunn? M1193: That doesn't ring a bell. F1189: Mm. More popular ones eh by Neil Munro? Do you know the Para Handy stories? M1193: Oh yeah, right you are, now wait a minute. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: That rings a bell. I'm not quite sure when I would read those. Ehm. F1189: And what about contemporary Scottish authors? There are some that are very popular just now, people like Ian Rankin. M1193: Ian? F1189: Rankin. M1193: Oh yeah, I've read Ian Rankin's books. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Get them out the library here. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Yeah, that's, that's probably quite true. F1189: Mm. Would you choose them because they're just good detective fiction or because they have //an association?// M1193: //I'd probably be [?]quite[/?]// I wouldn't really have known he was Scottish until, till I read the cover [laugh], to be honest. F1189: So you're not looking out for things like that then? M1193: No, I look for ehm, well, I read o-obviously, read what the thing's [?]I suppose[/?] is about. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Or I might get Jan, she reads probably more than I do. F1189: Mmhm mmhm. M1193: She might give me an idea what F1189: Right. M1193: of, well she brings the books home and I read them sometimes. F1189: [laugh] M1193: It's very often the way it works. F1189: Now, what about New Zealand authors? Ehm. M1193: Mm. F1189: Are there any that //you can think of that// M1193: //Oh well.// F1189: you particularly like? M1193: To be honest, I I don't think I've read very many of, New Zealand authors, the only one that comes to mind is ehm Agatha Christie's counterpart ehm [third participant speaks in background] She wrote the same sort of books as Agatha Christie. F1189: Detective fiction. M1193: Yeah. F1189: Mm thrillers. M1193: Ehm. F1189: I know who you mean but I can't remember. //[laugh]// M1193: //Can't think of the name.// F1189: Mmhm. M1193: You tend to compare now, which is not a good i- not, not a very good idea, you compare. Those that put, UK authors with ones out here, I don't think it's a good comparison. F1189: In what way, David? M1193: Well, I tend, I tend to think us colonials still tend to think we are the... see I never became a New Zealand citizen, F1189: Mmhm. M1193: which keeps me apart from, in New Zealand really. It's erm not a particularly good, I still tend to cling to my Scottish roots as much as, although, although I've spent more time out of here, out of Scotland than inside it. F1189: It's not in a sentimental way though, I don't think. You're not clinging to them in a //sentimental way.// M1193: //No, I'm not clinging to it// for that. I think I'm just proud of being Scottish really, that's probably the thing. Ehm I don't like people running down Scotland. F1189: And do they, do you, have you ever //suffered from// M1193: //Oh.// F1189: many negative ter-stereotypes of Scots? M1193: Oh yes, one or two ehm used to couple of [?]bods[/?] often said, `Why the hell are you out here? Why didn't you become a New Zealand citizen?' I said, `I don't particularly want to.' F1189: Mm. M1193: And they said, `Oh well.' They said, `We're,' well the usual nonsense, `We're keeping you' and `Why are you out here?' F1189: Well. M1193: `Utilising our stuff because UK's not any good.' That sort of thing. F1189: Do you think you might be the last generation of //immigrants who ehm// M1193: //Well, as far as our particular family go, I will be `cause// neither, neither of my children have got children. Ehm. F1189: No, I meant that you might be the last generation of people to do that, to keep your British passports and, and keep that //that part of your identity.// M1193: //Well, I've,// I haven't, it's not something I've ehm investigated too much but you, you're probably right. I suppose we could actually have dual, we could have dual F1189: Mm. M1193: passports, we could have a New Zealand one if we wanted it. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: But ehm well, we're quite happy with a UK passport. It's served us in good stead, I don't see any point changing it. Only now of course it's a Euro- it's a European passport, isn't it, it's not a F1189: That's right, it's not, it's not the nice //er// M1193: //We've// still got my, my blue one somewhere. //Or pink, was it [?]all orange[/?].// F1189: //No, it was a blue one, that's// right, you know, it's so long now I'd forgotten, it's, no it's a sort of ehm maroon red now [laugh]. M1193: Well, ours is [third speaker clarifies it is browny-red] Yeah, it is too. F1189: [laugh] Now, lastly in terms of, of New Zealand eh, we mentioned fiction, you said you wouldn't particularly look out for that. What about ehm the history of indigenous er people in, in New Zealand? //Would that interest you?// M1193: //Oh.// Yeah, I'm quite interested in that, I've, we've got, I've got books on that too. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm. We used to, used to get weekly synopsis on different things on //[inaudible].// F1189: //Mm.// M1193: You could put them into a folder. //I don't know whether we've still got that.// F1189: //Right. Uh=huh uh-huh.// Was that a kind of magazine then? M1193: Yeah. F1189: Right. M1193: Mm. F1189: And what was that called? M1193: Oh, I can't remember, the [?]Royal[/?] New Zealand ehm. No I can't remember what they were. //It's gone.// F1189: //Mmmh.// M1193: But you get a lot of, there again the television's a great educator and they had a a programme two or three years ago now, on the New Zealand wars. F1189: Mmhm //mmhm.// M1193: //And ehm// it was very well done and well illus-illustrated. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And ehm that certainly gave you an idea about what went, what went on on the, the old colonial //way of doing things.// F1189: //Mmhm.// Mm. Now, there's a, there's a Maori television channel. M1193: Yes that's a good channel, Jan watches that. F1189: Yeah, I was watching it too //the other night uh-huh// M1193: //It's a good, it's a good channel.// F1189: uh-huh. M1193: I must, I must admit I forget about it //occasionally, it's...// F1189: //Mmhm.// M1193: And you get some very good programmes on //that.// F1189: //Mm.// I did notice it was mostly in English though. Well, at least //the night I watched it.// M1193: //Yeah, it will,// sometimes it's in, it's in Maori with //subtitles, it depends// F1189: //Mm mmhm mmhm.// M1193: what they're doing. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm, I suspect in a few years' time it will be Maori. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: Ehm but it's A-and they produce the programmes very well. F1189: Mmhm. M1193: And they don't get much money. //It's done,// F1189: //Don't they?// M1193: no, it's done on a pretty shoe-string budget. F1189: Right so the, it's not subsidised. M1193: Yeah, the government subsidises it but it's, I don't think it's subsidised to any great extent. F1189: Mmhm. Mm that's interesting. M1193: Oh yeah, it's, there's some very good //Maori people around.// F1189: //Mmhm mmhm.// M1193: There's like a whole thing on fanatics there too which... There again they weren't treated too well by the British colonials when they arrived. [laugh] We've never learned, I don't think. F1189: [laugh] Now, my last question is, is quite a hard one. Ehm but it is the last one. And that's if you could sum up for me, David, what reading has meant in your lifetime. M1193: Oh. Well, reading, is, it's entertainment but it's also biggest thing as far as I'm concerned is the learning ehm about different things, different people. I've a fascination about races and people, Janet gets annoyed when I look at someone and think, `God, he looks Indian' or `he looks...' So what? But no it's ehm it's the education part, I, you can never stop learning. F1189: Do you think that's a particularly Scottish legacy, especially here in New Zealand, the education part? M1193: That's something you, you probably answer better then me but I know the people I've got out here are always learning. They're keen on, the Scottish people I know. Eh but they're sort, sort of have the same hobbies as, as I do. Ehm. No, I think you can always learn from somebody or... You don't have to agree with them but you can always learn from them and ehm F1189: I'm just thinking that Scots have a reputation in that area, //of// M1193: //Oh do they?// Oh well, //it's,// F1189: //being// M1193: yeah. //I've always,// F1189: //interested in education.// M1193: yeah, I've always been interested in education. F1189: But you've never reflected on that as being part of your Scottish heritage? M1193: Well, I've never thought of it, I've just, that's just the way I am and that's er and I think we've, it's reflected in our two girls, they've both done pretty well, and ehm, They certainly read. I know that the older one seems to read more than maybe the younger one nowadays but... F1189: Did they ever read any of your old books? M1193: Yeah, well, funnily enough some of the, [third participant laughs] some of them have, some of them have gone up the, F1189: [laugh] //They've whipped them, have they [laugh]?// M1193: //The Reader's Digest.// We've got a whole stack //piled// F1189: //Uh-huh.// M1193: away there. Not sure what we're going to do with them. Ehm. But the big thing as far as I'm concerned is that we emphasised on both of the girls when they were young. And they did ehm they, they did read a lot. //And they're well// F1189: //So you did// the same thing that your aunt did for you? M1193: Oh yeah, my aunt was a big ehm influence in all of what I did. F1189: David, you've spoken with me for a long //time, I think// M1193: //[laugh]// F1189: I've exhausted you. And it's been an absolute pleasure. //Can I thank you very much.// M1193: //Well, I've thoroughly enjoyed it,// it's, if it's any help. F1189: It's an- of an enormous amount of help, we're really grateful to you. This work is protected by copyright. All rights reserved. The SCOTS Project and the University of Glasgow do not necessarily endorse, support or recommend the views expressed in this document. Information about document and author: Audio Audio audience For gender: Mixed Audience size: N/A Audio awareness & spontaneity Speaker awareness: N/A Degree of spontaneity: N/A Audio footage information Year of recording: 2009 Recording person id: 1189 Size (min): 130 Size (mb): 501 Audio setting Recording venue: In interviewee's home Geographic location of speech: Dunedin Audio relationship between recorder/interviewer and speakers Speakers knew each other: N/A Audio transcription information Transcriber id: 1222 Year of transcription: 2009 Year material recorded: 2009 Word count: 20274 Audio type Interview: Participant Participant details Participant id: 1189 Gender: Female Decade of birth: 1950 Educational attainment: University Age left school: 16 Occupation: Research Assistant Place of birth: Ayr Region of birth: S Ayr Birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Country of birth: Scotland Place of residence: Glasgow Region of residence: Glasgow Residence CSD dialect area: Gsw Country of residence: Scotland Father's occupation: Journeyman joiner Father's place of birth: Ayr Father's region of birth: S Ayr Father's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Father's country of birth: Scotland Mother's occupation: Domestic Mother's place of birth: Ayr Mother's region of birth: S Ayr Mother's birthplace CSD dialect area: Ayr Mother's country of birth: Scotland Participant Participant details Participant id: 1193