SCOTS Project - www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk Document : 799 Title : Conversation 13: Two male postgraduate students on academic life Author(s): N/A Copyright holder(s): SCOTS Project Content label: This document contains strong or offensive language Audio transcription M741: Okay, [laugh]. Oh now it gets weird because it's like definitely recordin. //I'm gonnae,// M605: //[laugh]// M741: this is actually really good for me cause now I'll know how my test subjects feel when I'm recording them, //eh// M605: //Aye, aye.// M741: which is, cause I'm like, oh yeah, just talk, talk away. And I think now that I'm in this kinna situation, with being recorded, I'm understanding this whole observer's paradox, listening, recording, type thing, that makes it really difficult to get sort of natural speech. M605: And there's also an element of ehm, of teachin. I think maybe teaching us about all this. M741: Mm M605: In that you're sayin to folk, "talk" and they're sayin "well talk, what about?" M741: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. See that was, that was one thing that really annoyed me when I was an undergraduate, that hardly anyone would talk in the class. And you'd be like, it would end up the tutor would be like a sort of mini-lecturer, and you would just be talked at for an hour, because they had to do something to kind of fill in the time. M605: Yeah. M741: [CENSORED: forename] [CENSORED: surname] was really good at that, actually, eh, //she used to do.// M605: //Yeah, but [CENSORED: forename]'s actually// very good though. //She's got a// M741: //Yeah.// M605: good knowledge base and she M741: Yeah, totally, but it was just really annoying. Not in, not in because she was talking, but because everyone else just wouldn't. It was just like, they'd all be sitting there, going "Well, I don't know what to say; let's just be quiet for an hour and someone else will talk." //And that// M605: //Yeah.// M741: really really annoyed me, //really annoyed me.// M605: //And one of// one of the things is like, ehm, I think, this year, I've I've inherited classes from other people. M741: Right. M605: So in English you don't teach for the full year, you teach, ehm, they divide it in //modules.// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: So you teach, either One A or One B. M741: Right. M605: Ehm, and I'm doin One B, which means that, I've got a class who, well five five classes all of whom have already been brought together, //and they've been// M741: //Mmhm// M605: They've been ehm, g- gettin to know each other, with another tutor, M741: Mmhm M605: who paradoxically, one of whom was one of my old tutors. M741: Oh right. //that's weird, yeah.// M605: //And I've told them this, I've just said,// you know, I actually M741: Yeah. M605: [CENSORED: forename] taught me as well. M741: Who is it? M605: [CENSORED: forename] [CENSORED: surname]. M741: Don't know her. M605: Right. Ehm, and I almost feel as if, everyone has their different styles //of teaching, obviously, almost// M741: //Yeah, yeah, yeah.// M605: feel as if they're kind of expecting me to do things in the way that she //did them.// M741: //Yep.// M605: And I'm not either able or willing to do //that.// M741: //Yeah.// Yeah, cause you've gotta get your own sort of teaching style. You've gotta find it an M605: Yeah. M741: I think, ehm, like, emulating someone else, like, to an extent, is is good, but I think you've got to try and find your own way and your own feet, and do it //so you're own// M605: //But also I mean ye// M741: com- so you're comfortable like teaching in your own style. M605: It's also different as well, when you've got like a, you got three, three months, first time at University. M741: Mmhm M605: ehm, and th- the job of the tutor is to kind of ehm is to get people feelin at ease, and to just get like things flowin, and to put people in, in, put people at ease. But then by the time you know, you you're you're three months in, //you need to pick// M741: //Mmhm// M605: up the pace a little bit, you need to kind of //You'd be expectin// M741: //Yeah.// M605: a little bit more engagement, a little bit more involvement from M741: Yeah. M605: from people. M741: I think I just, I made it really obvious that they weren't talkin when they weren't. I was just like [tut] "so everyone have a good weekend?" Nothin happened, I was just like "Oh [inaudible] //[inaudible] thanks for that, that's// M605: //[inaudible]// M741: appreciated," //and I just// M605: //Aye.// M741: I just made them feel like, you know, youse aren't talkin, youse have youse have got to do this. Erm, anyway, they seem to be gettin somewhere now, like the past couple of tutorials it's been really good, because they've started actually talkin an asking questions an thinkin about things, which has been really really good but. You get, it's only a certain amount of people who who are like that, and then the rest of them are just like, not very talkative. I've been tryin, when I see them outside of class and stuff like that, and actually stoppin and goin "Hey, how are you doin?" you know, "Everythin alright?" So the- that kinda informality gets back into the tutor group. And people feel as if they can kinna chat and stuff like that. And I, like, I took them for a drink at Christmas time, to say, you know, good first term's work and stuff like that, and I think a lot of them were like "Wait a minute. He's takin us for a drink? Whit's whit's goin on?" But I think they really enjoyed it, cause it gave them then a chance to like chat about stuff totally informally, in a situation that's not M605: Yeah. M741: you know like a classroom, which w- I think was really really good for them. What kind of stuff is you're doin in One B with them? M605: It's ehm, well, we've got quite a lot of poetry, we've got, today was Wordsworth and Coleridge. We've done done Herbert M741: Right. M605: I've got two more poetry sessions //and he// M741: //Mmhm// M605: keeps sayin "I hate poetry", and I keep sayin "That's why it's compulsory." M741: Yeah, [laugh]. M605: [laugh] //[laugh]// M741: //Yep.// //Yep, yeah.// M605: //Which is which is which is the case, you know?// Ehm, I've got a session on kind of, I've tried to kind of group it just chronologically, so I've got a session on sort of Modernists, //but it's basically// M741: //Right.// M605: Eliot, and Hopkins, who doesn't quite fit in that Modernist mould, //but he was quite// M741: //Mmhm// M605: kind of influential, you know? And then I've got an, a session on modern Irish poetry, M741: [click] Oh right, cool. M605: And I don't quite know how I'm gonna do that, I think I'm gonna do something about like erm, I'd better be careful about how clichéd I go into what I'm talkin about, but I think I'll do something with ehm I don't know, Yeats and Heaney //and something on// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: ehm, artistic response to violence an. M741: Uh-huh M605: Do you know, s- somethin like that, I don't want to get into the, I think you can deal with these things in a really clichéd way, you know? And I feel a kind of a a responsibility not to do that. But it, but also I think that people are not very, they don't get political enough about their about their poetry. I mean sometimes, I mean, I'm co- I come at things from quite a kind of ehm politically engaged angle //in terms of// M741: //Mmhm// M605: the questions that I ask tend to be questions to do with language, power M741: Mmhm I think a lot of the times though, like, undergraduate students are kind of unwilling to get involved in these kind of big heady debates, like, not so much about the poetry, but about the sort of political dimension of it. M605: Yeah. M741: Er, why why that is, I don't know, but I definitely, when I was doin like Scot Lit and poetry er stuff, I never, I wasn't really willing or, to get involved in the whole political side of things. And even, even novels, not so much poetry, but novels as well, like, I just didn't really want to deal with that, cause it's really, it's complicated, I think. It can get messy, an //I think people get// M605: //People might// M741: a bit emotional about it, it can get a bit emotional about it as well, especially Irish poetry, like M605: There's gonna be a lot of resonances an things. M741: Mmhm M605: I mean, one of the things Wh- I'm be- I mean what I basically look, tend to be looking at in in my own work is about ehm the political implications of artistic form. M741: Mmhm M605: So why write this way and not that //way?// M741: //Yeah yeah yeah, yep.// M605: It's a really simple question. //but that's tends to be what I'm// M741: //Yeah.// //[sniff]// M605: //in one way or another talkin about.// M741: Yeah. //That looks quite cool.// M605: //Ehm, so when I come// to do in Wordsworth, and I mean I'm not, I'm not especially sympathetic //to the Romantics,// M741: //Mmhm// M605: and I ended up talkin the other day about Wordsworth and Marx. M741: Right. M605: just because it's like you know, what are the political implications of the Romantic ehm, sort of favouring of the country over the city? M741: Mmhm M605: What are the im- political implications of this, thinking about Marx and, you know, Ma- the C- Communist Manifesto's sayin about abolishing the difference between the town and the country. M741: Mmhm //Yeah.// M605: //You know, what are the// political implications of this apostrophe to nature that you get in in Wordsworth and Coleridge, //you know,// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: ehm in in reaction to the industrial revolution and. And some people were really interested; others were, like, "Oh all of a sudden I've got an angle on this." M741: Uh-huh M605: It just depends on the personalities and on the M741: Yeah, definitely. M605: Erm, cause you've got to find, I think, some way of like, especially in poetry when you've you always do quite dense formal patterning, M741: Yep. M605: you've got to find some way of saying, well why bother with all this formal stuff? M741: Yeah. M605: What's the point to it, what's the? And obviously you don't have an answer to that question, but what might be some //some ways// M741: //Yeah.// M605: of thinkin aboot it? M741: Hmm //That sounds quite cool.// M605: //Yep.// It can be but that was the one good class out of five. The other four, I I didn't fall flat on my face but they weren't very successful, you know? M741: Yeah, I've had a, I had one class like that so far this term. Fact it was it was only because I didn't really prepare it well enough Er, and we were talkin about the the semiotic triangle, se- semantics and stuff like that. M605: What, ehm, Saussure? M741: Er, yes, Saussure, reference, signifier //and all the rest// M605: //Yeah.// M741: of it so we were talkin about that. And they hadn't actually managed to copy down the the diagram and I've not, I didn't do semantics; I only did semantics in first and second year. Ah, and really didn't know anything about it, and I'm like [inhale] "Yeah, this is what this means", and they were like "Are you sure?" and I'm like "Yeah". "No! //No, actually, just give me a couple of// M605: //[laugh]// M741: minutes here until I read my tutor notes," and they were like "Oh my God!" But I made up for it the next week, like, I actually spent time like sitting and reading up on sort of Middle English, Chaucer stuff, so I was able to go "Boom boom boom, this is what it's all about", and I think they were a bit more impressed //by that.// M605: //Well your reputation// is so important isn't it? I mean you have, I feel very self-conscious at times about when you're //off form.// M741: //Yeah, [inaudible]// Yeah, oh aye aye like I know it was it was simply, not because I didn't know the material, it was because I never prepared it. Er, and semantics is just something that I'm I've never really been particularly interested in. But Middle English sho- is a bit easier, er, and next week it's sociolinguistics, which obviously //I'm gonna do in,// M605: //Which will be, you'll be in your// M741: I'll be in my element. M605: Whereas I kind of feel that like if I had a class on teaching Alasdair Gray, I'd feel quite nervous //because I'm I'd be// M741: //Yeah.// M605: thinkin well, you know, //all of a sudden// M741: //Yeah.// M605: th- that's what I'm supposed to be able to do. And then I'd be I'd be startin, well, how do I teach this stuff to beginners? How do I kind of //get on with?// M741: //Yeah.// M605: [inaudible] I mean I'd love to be asked to do it. M741: Yeah. M605: Obviously, I'd love to be asked to do it, but ehm M741: See that's the thing when you're, you've gotta teach something that you're not really sure of. It kind of consolidates your own knowledge base as well, because you've got this opportunity to go and read up and then you've got to be able to teach it, and that was one thing I was taught when I was doing my undergraduate. You just don't really ever know anything until you can explain it to someone else. And if you can explain it to someone else and they get it, then you know, you'd really know about it, because you're able to //sort o expl-// M605: //Which is what writin// essays is about, which is what the, basically your undergraduate essay is that same process. It's, M741: Yeah. M605: it's showin that you understand enough to explain it to a third party. M741: See I found it really odd actually that I can explain a lot more in an essay, and then it just kind of goes out ma head. I can figure things out and link them all together er on paper. But if you ask, really ask me to do like a lecture on exactly the same material, I wouldn't know anything about it. I would just be like, what do I talk about here? //But it's// M605: //Mmhm// M741: it's quite, it's quite weird that it's easier to keep your thoughts coherent on paper, but then it's a lot more, I think it's a lot more difficult to do it orally as well, but I don't know. I don't know if that has any currency or not. M605: I think it depends whether you actually read from a script or not. I th- I think if I'm gonna lecture I'll be reading from a script. M741: Yeah? M605: Because I'm, because the thing about, ehm, [inaudible] I mean I wouldnae be, there it is, standing at the //lectern// M741: //Mm// M605: just reading. //But I would definitely have it,// M741: //Yeah.// M605: because with the stuff that, that we're workin on is not so much ehm practical skills at the lecture level, //I mean that's where the tutorial// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: comes in. But it's not like like saying, well like, you know, John Corbett works through, quite often makes use of Powerpoint? M741: Yeah. M605: And when he's talkin about grammar an, and semantics an, and you know, those kind of things //to undergraduates,// M741: //Yeah.// M605: and that's a great way to do it, you put up y- your basic kind of concepts, your //information,// M741: //Yep.// M605: and then you just //kind of, expand on youv-// M741: //Kind of expand on it, yeah.// M605: yo- you kind of work out w- with the students what what makes sense //and doesn't make sense an// M741: //Yeah, yeah.// M605: ye- you take people through it like that. //Ehm// M741: //Yeah.// M605: I was at a class yesterday on Gaelic phonetics, actually, M741: Oh wow, cool! //Who was doin that?// M605: //which is// ehm, the new professor of Celtic. Ehm, [CENSORED: forename], ehm, [CENSORED: surname], //his name is.// M741: //Oh right, cool.// M605: [CENSORED: surname], in fact, is how he pronounces it. M741: Yeah, I didn't know, er, [CENSORED: forename] [CENSORED: surname] got promoted, //as well.// M605: //Yeah yeah, he got ma-// M741: Er, met him a couple of months ago; he came into work, and I was like "Dr [CENSORED: surname]." And he was "well, I, actually I'm a //Professor now." [laugh] And I was like, "Oh, right!// M605: //Professor now. [laugh]// M741: Congratulations, congratulations." So that's pretty good. M605: Yeah yeah, he's one of my supervisors. M741: Is he, yeah? M605: Yeah. //[door slamming] [inaudible]// M741: //Who's, who, [?]the other one[/?]?// M605: With er, [CENSORED: forename] [CENSORED: surname], M741: Right. M605: so they're the two profs. M741: Wow, that's pretty impressive. M605: Yeah. M741: That's pretty impressive. Er, are you, has [CENSORED: forename] found anything out about her viva yet? M605: I understand that she passed. //I haven't spoken to her personally, but I heard// M741: //Right, cool. Uh-huh.// M605: I heard that she'd passed. M741: Brilliant. //Excellent.// M605: //Like// obviously I didn't hear before she heard, but //aye, some,// M741: //Mmhm.// M605: she must have spoken to somebody who spoke to //somebody.// M741: //Yeah, the// Scot, Scot Lit department seems to be growing in strength. That's //pretty good.// M605: //Well,// it depends. The thing about it is, I mean, how many people are gonna get decent contracts? I mean, without [CENSORED: forename] and, do you know [CENSORED: forename] [CENSORED: surname]? She teaches //Scots language in this department, yeah?// M741: //Mmhm yep.// M605: [CENSORED: forename]'s a nice nice person. M741: Mmhm M605: Ehm, without [CENSORED: forename] and [CENSORED: forename] I'm not sure that they could teach the courses quite as well as they do. //Because// M741: //Right.// M605: both [CENSORED: surname] and [CENSORED: forename] do lecturing, I think. //I know [CENSORED: forename] does// M741: //Mmhm// M605: a bit. //I think// M741: //Right.// M605: [CENSORED: forename] does a bit as well. M741: Aye, she never ever taught me, but I've heard of her. M605: I mean she's she's she's just, she she got her viva passed last year. M741: Right. M605: Ehm, and they both do do ehm quite a lot of teaching, and and ehm, and [CENSORED: forename] does a lot of admin. But, I mean I don't know the details of their contracts, but they don't have proper jobs. M741: No, that was, when I spoke to [CENSORED: forename], ehm she was saying that, she was only on a point six contract or something like that. Er //and didn't know whether they would, yeah, it's not.// M605: //It's not, it's obviously not permanent either, you know?// //They've got no security.// M741: //She said it wasn't at all.// M605: And the other thing, the other problem is that the eh the department is facing ehm decreasing student numbers at the moment, M741: Right. //Oh that's a shame.// M605: //for whatever reason.// So, I mean I would say definitely, let's give, fine, get the money, and give [CENSORED: forename] and and [CENSORED: forename] both jobs, M741: Mmhm M605: because they've both got specialisms, but they're both really good in //general.// M741: //At everything// //else, yeah.// M605: //general kinna// ways as well. And, I haven't been taught by actually by either of them, M741: Right. M605: ehm although I've been to kind of papers that [CENSORED: forename]'s given, //certainly.// M741: //Right.// M605: Ehm I don't think I've been taught by [CENSORED: forename]. I might have been. I cannae mind. But ehm You know they the- they've got good reputations as //teachers.// M741: //Mmhm// M605: But that doesn't necessarily mean that that money's gonna be there to give them the //jobs.// M741: //Yeah.// M605: Cause it would strengthen the department immensely //if ehm// M741: //Yeah.// M605: [CENSORED: forename] [CENSORED: surname] was able to turn round tomorrow and say "right, you've both done x number of years or months kind of showing us what you can do, M741: Yeah. M605: Here's a salary, ehm here's the teaching responsibilities, go away and write, go and write some articles and let's get, //let's get some work done," you know?// M741: //Yeah, get it done, yeah.// //[inaudible]// M605: //I don't know if the department's gonna be in that position.// M741: Yeah, but I mean, I don't know, I don't think th- there's enough done at High School level to say to people "Look there are there are a few universities that do specifically Scottish Lit." Cause I didn't know that Glasgow did Scottish Lit, when I came in. //Er// M605: //I mean,// M741: and it was only English Language, sorry English Lit., did English Language because of the whole Honours system, you've got to do //English Language// M605: //Yeah.// M741: and then did Scot Lit., pure- found out purely on, by my supervisor, she was like "Oh, we do Scottish Lit., by the way." And I was like "Okay, I'll do that as well." Erm but I think if they did more at High School level, and said, you know, there is a whole, you know, other corpus here, there, you know, you can do Scottish Literature here instead of English Literature. But then they don't do enough with English Language either. Like, I never even knew that there was so much stuff in English Language, //but like phonetics,// M605: //Cause they do it in England of course// they do like a //separate A-level in in English Language, yeah.// M741: //Yeah, they do A-level English Language, yeah.// M605: They don't do enough linguistic study they don't do, they don't do obviously anywhere near, anything like enough //Scots Language stuff either.// M741: //I think we got all// SPOCA in High School. The the Subject, //Predicator, Object,// M605: //Predicator, Object,// M741: Complement, Adjunct stuff. Er, that was that was it in fact. And that was in fourth year, but when you did fifth year there was nothing, //it was all literature.// M605: //I mean I think they've got// this ehm, I think they, they do have a lot of nonsense in Higher English though, a lot of kind of stuff which the teachers hate to teach. //you know,// M741: //Yeah.// M605: kind of very, [inaudible] though apparently the government wants people to. What th- what they're doin is puttin a pressure on teachers of English to provide all these critical skills, M741: Mmhm M605: which teachers of m- almost any humanities subject M741: Yeah. M605: could be asked to be a part of the responsibility for. M741: Yeah. M605: Like, writing essays in history gives you kind of critical tools //and critical// M741: //Yeah.// M605: skills, you know? And there are, [?]askin[/?], it's now called Higher English and Communication, M741: Yeah. M605: so that, half of what they're, I mean that's one reason why I don't want to be a school teacher. M741: Mmhm M605: Ehm //But the only times I// M741: //That's// M605: consider bein a school teacher would be if I got to teach Scots language. M741: Right. //See that was the thing, you can kind of// M605: //Do you know what I mean, that's that's when I// M741: do that, but then it's all this this whole, I don't know, national treasure thing, like Scots language, you teach it on Burns' night type thing. Er, which I think's a, you know you do you do Scottish Language through Burns. And then you maybe do a little bit of Tom Leonard or somethin like that, but you don't really do all that much about the the grammar or it, the phonetics of it, how it's different from Standard English, this whole Standard English-Scottish continuum, you know, where you use it, why you use it. the historical developments. You don't do anything like that //and it's such a shame.// M605: //I mean,// in simple terms, I just think that on day one, primary one, people should come in and and they should get like, count to ten in //in English and count// M741: //And,// M605: to ten in Scots, //and just work// M741: //Yeah.// M605: its way through, //right// M741: //Yeah.// M605: through the education system. M741: See I I //and yeah// M605: //[inaudible]// M741: yeah, I totally, I think like they need to do something about getting Scots on a on a more even footin. And even if people are bi- I say bilingual, but, you know, I think if, if that happened, and people are able to code-switch effectively between the Scots an, and Standard English, it would be, it would be really good, and then you're totally discouraged from writing in it as well, speaking of which I've still to send you those essays. M605: It's alright, because I got them off the Corpus. M741: Did you? Oh //right, brilliant, excellent, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool.// M605: //Cause I mean it's published now, yeah, so I went, I did I did read them.// Ehm, I mean th- [exhale] the thing about it all is is that I'm forever sayin things like that when I've just forgot what I was about //to say. [laugh]// M741: //[laugh]. My friend// does that. He is like, that's that's one of his catchlines, "The thing about it is". //And, boomph, [laugh] yeah.// M605: //An an it, what it is it's the sp-, see you spend like four seconds, an it takes you... It's like if you read ehm// you know, oral- you know orally transmitted //poetry,// M741: //Yeah.// M605: A- and and it's full of these lines that are like, which appear, if you read them on the page, to be //repetitious.// M741: //Yeah.// M605: But what they're there to do is to //to allow the, gi- give you a couple of seconds to remember what he's got to say next.// M741: //they give you a couple of seconds to remember, yeah.// But that's, he always says that, and we always just burst out laughing when he does it, cause he doesn't, I don't think he realises it, when he's doin it; it's just totally subconscious, until we go "you've just said it again, you said it like two seconds ago." "The thing about it is. The thing about it is." And it's always when we're discu-, like not arguin about somethin but debatin about somethin. An, it always seems to precede like some sort of hair-splitting point. //[inaudible] like// M605: //Right, yeah.// M741: Come on, like, give it up, really, eh. //[?]He's a good guy[/?].// M605: //It's funny though, because// I'm I'm learning Gaelic at the moment, and one of the things that's kind of lacking in my Gaelic conversation is those kind of phrases. M741: Mmhm [sniff] Yeah, just sort of filler, //filler phrases, yeah.// M605: //Filler phrases, cause you need them.// M741: Yeah, oh yeah, //definitely.// M605: //You need them, whereas// you quite often hear me like using lots of "okay"s M741: Mmhm M605: And lots of "so"s. M741: Right. M605: A lot, occa- some things like "okay" have kind of made their way into Gaelic, M741: Mmhm //Mm// M605: //You know?// People will use that M741: Yeah. M605: Ehm //An// M741: //Do, when// you, when you converse in Gaelic, like, how how proficient are you? M605: I've been doin it, I've got I've got eighteen months' University Gaelic, M741: Right, cool. M605: ehm which means that I can read a bit, M741: Right. M605: and I speak broken Gaelic and I sc- I switch between Gaelic and English a lot. M741: Right. //Cause ma f-// M605: //Just because I don't// use it very, like every day, //you know?// M741: //Uh-huh// Yeah, cause ma flatmate, he's Welsh, M605: Yep. M741: erm, and when he talks to like his mum and his dad and his brothers and stuff like that, he. It's really really funny to listen to him, cause he will, like, big broken, big stretches of Welsh and then all of a sudden he'll just slip into English. And then it'll be all Welsh again, er and it's really interesting like hearin him kind of code-switch between using English words and then using Welsh words, but he uses English words normally when he's swearing, actually, that's maybe //[?]the point[/?].// M605: //I wonder about Welsh// because, cause Gaelic apparently, the the concept of a swearword apparently is is is alien to Gaelic. M741: Right, oh right. M605: Like the idea that a word in itself has value. M741: Uh-huh Yeah. //Yeah.// M605: //Right? So// in English you can, or in Scottish you can have your series of different words for parts of the body, you //know?// M741: //Yep.// M605: And and one word you would like use in, if you were teaching, M741: Mmhm M605: Right? Another word you would use down the pub. M741: Mmhm M605: And and with different people, different //ages.// M741: //Right.// M605: Whereas in Gaelic, I think they just like, words don't have moral value, so //yer arse is yer arse.// M741: //Mm// That's quite interesting. M605: So the concept of a swearword is is is alien to //as I understand it to Gaelic,// M741: //[cough] Uh-huh// M605: traditionally to Gaelic, M741: Yeah. //Cause there's been loads of work done// M605: //linguistic culture.// M741: in in English as well, sayin that, you know, a swearword's just a swearword, it's not any worse than any other word, like a table or whatever. It's just the kinna it's it's interesting how a meaning, a a judgement meaning has been put on on top of that, //on top of that word.// M605: //I wonder what that's go to// do with the like sociolinguistic history of //English and Norman French and Latin and some of these.// M741: //Yeah, I I don't know. I w- wondered if it's// more cultural than //anythin else.// M605: //Mmhm// M741: Cause I don't know, like being sort of, I would think that Gaelic's quite 'nicey' language, I suppose. Er I don't know whether English is maybe, because of all the sort of strife it's actually gone through //to get where it is now.// M605: //I don't know, I don't know if it's// so much that, I ju- cause I think it's just a very specifical-, specifically cultural i- idea that words can have //of themselves have value.// M741: //Yeah.// M605: But you can still ehm, abuse people in Gaelic. M741: Right. M605: But you you do s- you do that by calling them, ehm, like, think if you think about the English phrase "son of a bitch". M741: Mmhm M605: Eh, there's not, there's not a swear word anywhere in there. M741: Yeah. M605: But that is a a kind of taboo phrase //in the context in// M741: //Yeah.// M605: which you use it. M741: Well, it, like this is th- like, would you say "bitch" is swearin? //See I would say it is.// M605: //I would say bi-// I would say "bitch" is swearing in that phr- sentence. M741: Right. M605: Because //it's a it's a developed phrase, whereas// M741: //See I would, yeah.// M605: if we're talkin about ehm, dogs, well that's a bitch. M741: See that, that's the one thing, like, my girlfriend, her mum er keeps dogs, and when she says "bitch" like I can't au- but help automatically thinking it's the swearing word connotations, rather than the, you know, the the gender of the dog. //Er, and I'm just like// M605: //Aye, aye.// M741: "you ju- you just swore," [inaudible] "No, no, no, Robert, it's the it's the dog, the the she's a bitch". //Er, but it// M605: //[laugh]// M741: just, it's really weird that that's, that's w- that's what [inaudible] in ma head now. M605: I mean you c- you could take that far enough and say that then, you know, "cow" could become a swear word, you know //if you talk about a woman or,// M741: //Yeah, yeah.// M605: do you know, there's, and I think that's what happens. I mean don't, I'm not in any means like knowledgeable about this, but I gather that's what happens in Gaelic when they use like M741: Right. M605: phrases, but the words themselves aren't of erm value, but like it's in the context. M741: Mmhm M605: But then I wonder if religious words have value, in Gaelic. //Like, cause [inaudible] the concept of// M741: //Aye, cause that ehm.// M605: blasphemy must must still exist, c- in Presbyterian M741: Uh-huh //Cause in Middle English that was// M605: //culture.// M741: that was that was the thing, like religious terms like, "God's bones" and "God's teeth" and stuff like that, they were they were the bad words. //Ehm// M605: //Yeah.// M741: but obviously that's kind of all changed, with the sort of de-Christianisation of //of of// M605: //Mmhm// M741: sort of English culture, I suppose. But ehm, in Middle English, an Chaucer and stuff like that, that was definitely that was the that was the tabou-, the taboo words. It's b- it would be quite interesting to actually look at swear words. There's a girl doin a, some work just now on slang. And I think she's looking a bit at swearing in Glasgow, in Glaswegian, which would be quite interesting. Hopefully I'll look a bit at that //as well when I// M605: //Yeah.// M741: come to do, er, actually do my research. Cause I've not even started it yet, which is really bad, but I've got a meeting tomorrow. M605: When's your deadline? Kind of October? M741: Ehm, I think it's end of September, //so, I think I've// M605: //Aye, yeah.// M741: got, like, two months' groundwork, two months' recording which will take me up to the school holidays, and then transcribe it, analyse it, write up some sort of preliminary findings and then get it written down. M605: But a lot of it will be transcripts then and things like that, you mean, in terms of how much you have to write, do your transcripts count in part of your wordcount, or is that //appendixed?// M741: //Ehm// I don't know. All the other thesis that are, er, or is it "thesi"? //[laugh]// M605: //[laugh]// //I think I think the- "theses" sounds quite funny, you know? [laugh]// M741: //Eh, all the other stuff I have... Yeah.// //All the other ones that I've read er// M605: //[laugh]// M741: have all the the transcriptions actually included in the main body of the text, but I don't know whether they've counted towards the word limit or not. I don't know whether they would. //But then, I// M605: //Don't know.// M741: suppose they probably should, M605: I think M741: cause they're part of like your argument, like quotations get taken into your word count. M605: I think it just depends on ehm I think doing sociolinguistics, you're you're in a a funny position, cause you're sort of straddling kinna arts and social sciences, //in terms of how// M741: //Mm// M605: the rest of the Academy views what you're doin. M741: Mmhm, yeah, sociolinguistics seems to be the kinna I don't know, it's gettin a better, it's got recently a sort of better reputation bein a lot more scientific and stuff like that, especially with like, in the sixties there was the whole growth of, like, Labovian quantitative sociolinguistics and stuff like that. Ehm but even he, I was reading this last night in fact, even he says, you know, this whole sociolinguistics lookin at the relations between language and society, that's not what we should be doin, you know, we should be tabling stuff, counting things, and doin it like that, cause that's that's the scientific thing and he says, like, he's quite, he regrets the whole concept of sociolinguistics, cause he doesn't think that that's what it's all about. //Ehm// M605: //Right.// M741: but, it's got, it's got better. And even our department, like, we've only got one sociolinguist, //Um, [CENSORED: forename], yeah.// M605: //Is that ehm, [CENSORED: forename]? Yeah.// M741: But she, eh, she's hoping to get another one in fact, but there's loads she's got like loads of p- eh postgrads doin work on different bits of //[inaudible]// M605: //Cause I know [CENSORED: forename]// //And, sh- oh, don't.// M741: //Yep, [CENSORED: forename] and there's myself, there's [CENSORED: forename]. [CENSORED: surname]? I don't know if you know her.// M605: I think I've probably met her actually. M741: Eh, there's [CENSORED: forename] [CENSORED: surname] //Ehm// M605: //What about [CENSORED: forename]? Is [CENSORED: forename] doin// somethin sociolinguistic, or? M741: [CENSORED: forename], that's her job, erm M605: Oh she's postdoctoral? //isn't she, yeah?// M741: //Yeah, oh, I don't know if// she's post-, I don't know if she's got a doctorate, does she? M605: Can't remember. M741: Um, but she's she's actually workin. Eh, and then there's Who else? There's a girl called [CENSORED: forename], and there was [CENSORED: forename], erm, there was there's loads, and she's had like really some good thesis work comin through, the past sort o five years or so. M605: Yeah. //Well it s-// M741: //Ehm, but it's// M605: says something when you've got, you know, one member of staff in an area, but they've got a disproportionate amount of ehm //postgraduates an// M741: //Yeah,// that's the thing, like, all the work that we're all doin's all on Glaswegian. Er, we're not really doin anythin else. Like all ma work's on Glaswegian, all the M605: mm M741: [CENSORED: forename]'s work is on Glaswegian. Eh, obviously all of [CENSORED: forename]'s and [CENSORED: forename]'s work is on Glaswegian, [CENSORED: forename]'s, her's is on Welsh actually. Welsh and English code-switching, eh, which is a bit hard to do, from up here, so she has to do it through questionnaires and stuff like that. She went down a couple of weeks ago, to a school in Wales an an said, you know. M605: Is she a Welsh speaker herself? M741: Yeah, yeah, sh- well, wi English. Eh, she can speak Welsh, but she kinna f- really forgot a lot of it when she came up here for Uni. Erm, she had to kind of try and re-teach herself before she went down, //so she was able// M605: //Aye.// M741: to talk to the kids and stuff like that. Um, but yeah, I think she is maybe the only one who is not doin anything in in Glaswegian M605: Right. M741: just now, which is really, it's cool; there's like //so much stuff goin on here.// M605: //Well it makes a lot of sense, you know, it makes a,// well, it makes a lot of sense to be to be usin materials that you've got to hand, you know? M741: Yeah. M605: I was doin some work in one of these y- one of these moments of, it's actually not for my PhD but it's kind of I did this paper last year on ehm, I, it's kind of a misleading title, called "Sectarianism and the Scots language". M741: Right. M605: And I did a pa- I did this, basically the argument's about the ehm, the kind of Scots language literary revival of the early twentieth century. M741: Right. M605: And, er I'm lookin at people like William Souter. M741: Mmhm M605: And I'm tryin to say that the kind of catalyst behind this, behind, for some of the writers' M741: Mmhm M605: ehm linguistic tactics, is a response to Irish immigration. M741: Right. //Uh-huh// M605: //Okay?// Ehm, it s- it sounds really tenuous when you just hear it out of //the air.// M741: //Yeah.// M605: Yeah, but th-, so I put this argument together about like, what is the ehm what is the cultural context of Scotland in the nineteen-twenties? M741: Uh-huh M605: An, why after ehm two hundred years of parliamentary union with England, why a nationalist movement now? M741: Mmhm M605: And not, do you know what I //mean, why wo-,// M741: //Yeah, two hundred years ago, yeah.// M605: Well, I mean, there probably, sure there was two hundred years ago, but, do you know, why now? What's what's special about now? M741: Mmhm M605: Ehm and I'm lookin at, kind of, some of the the the strategies to do with ehm literary Scots writing M741: Right. M605: and talk about like linguistic choice, Ehm //like the privileging// M741: //Mm// M605: of ehm Germanic over ehm Latinate vocabulary, M741: Uh-huh M605: on the basis that the La- the Latinate vocabulary is stigmatised as English. M741: Right. M605: And then paradoxically they then go back to kind of G- Anglo-Saxon cognate //languages,// M741: //Yeah.// M605: to g- to and there's a lot, there's a kind of a kind of a political kind of ehm //subtext// M741: //Sort of thing goin on.// M605: to a lot of what's goin on go- goin on here. Ehm M741: Is th- is this a paper in progress, //just now? Right.// M605: //In, well I did it I did it as a conference paper last year.// And then I've got to revise it for ehm publication. M741: Right. M605: And I'm gonna turn it into a kind of a //more// M741: //Mm// M605: sort of developed, developed essay. //[?]But I will.[/?]// M741: //Ah, that's cool.// M605: but one of the the basic ehm So you've got this idea like that it it it's destructive to to, like you know, we we've both written essays in Scots, right, and //my attitude is// M741: //Mmhm// M605: always, ehm, don't stigmatise classical vocabulary, M741: Mmhm M605: a television's a television's a television. M741: Yeah. //Rather than// M605: //Right?// M741: a "far-seer" or something like that. M605: Which is something that I, in fairness like, as far as I understand, the Icelanders do that sort of thing. M741: Mmhm M605: And the Germans do as well. M741: Yeah. //Yeah, their// M605: //Right?// M741: their word's "Fernseher", I think. //for tele-// M605: //Whereas if you// go into like in Gaelic, ehm it depends on the word. M741: Yeah. M605: Right? So "television" in Gaelic is "telebhisean", //because you// M741: //Yeah.// M605: think about it, like, //a literal.// M741: //But it's spelt differently, is it not?// M605: Yeah, because the Gaelic alphabet doesn't have a 'v'. M741: Yeah. M605: But that's the only difference. M741: Yeah. M605: Ehm, well, no, actually there's one other difference too, but it's just phonetically //'television' in Gaelic.// M741: //Right.// M605: Ehm because if you think about television, like a "far-seer". M741: Yeah. M605: right, well, that's doesn't, that's what it literally means, but that doesn't M741: Yeah. M605: eh, you know that's not what it what it now means. M741: Yeah. M605: So the word itself has acquired kind of value in meaning, M741: Mmhm M605: so they've they've kept that word. But then the word for "Internet", M741: Uh-huh M605: is "eadar-lìon" I've got very bad Gaelic accent. e- "eadar-lìon" //'eadar-lìon'// M741: //Right.// M605: ehm, which literally means "Internet", M741: Right. M605: because it's the the c- net which joins up, the connecting net. M741: Yep. M605: Right? So that in that context, it makes sense. M741: Yeah. M605: I don't know how, if that's just, if that was actually thought out as as a good word to to Gaelicise. M741: Yeah. M605: Whereas they decided that "television" they would keep. I don't know if it was just habit that dictated that, or M741: Yeah. M605: or whatever, but. M741: Mm M605: But but they've, you know, there's a certain approach to it. But my attitude is always television's television's television. M741: Yeah. M605: Ehm, so I'm looking at kind of ehm linguistic choice, in in in ehm Scots, like, writing in the, in the nineteen, early nineteen-hundreds onwards. M741: Mmhm M605: And between the wars, you know, at the time when the Church is publishing its, the Church of Scotland's publishing it's ehm "The Menace to", "of the Irish race to our Scottish Nationality", //an all that kind of thing an,// M741: //Mm// M605: ehm. But what, we- we- th- the main kind of impetus for all this is that if you look at the Scottish National Dictionary, M741: Mmhm M605: ehm, there's a little, this is why, talk about, like, you, the work in this department on Glaswegian is so interesting, M741: Uh-huh M605: is, that if, was it, in the Scottish National Dictionary, in the introduction to Volume One, M741: Right. M605: published nineteen thirty-three I think, right? But, look in the introduction; it's like set out in kind of bullet points, //like, number, like,// M741: //Right.// M605: you know One dot One, and then it goes on kind of thing. Well, about fo- fourteen pages in or something, M741: Mmhm M605: It says ehm, there's this one little thing which says "Due to the influx of Irish and foreign immigrants, into the industrial, into the industrial area surrounding Glasgow, //the dialect// M741: //Mmhm// M605: has become hopelessly corrupt." //Right?// M741: //Yeah.// //Yeah.// M605: //So right near// the centre //of// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: this monumental work of Scottish scholarship //which// M741: //Mmhm// M605: ehm which begins in the nineteen, in the early twentieth century, M741: Mmhm M605: right, to catalogue the distinctiveness of Scots //speech,// M741: //Yeah.// M605: they ignore the city of Glasgow, the biggest city in Scotland, [?]wi her[/?] a huge population. They just ignore Glasgow, //one of the// M741: //Yeah.// M605: I mean they say, well, you know, ehm, it's okay to catalogue like the Norse influence on ehm insular Scots, //an// M741: //Yeah.// M605: it's okay to catalogue kind of the Romany influence //on// M741: //Yep.// M605: on my dialect of Scots, //you know in the South-East.// M741: //But it's not// M605: "But, we're not gonna touch Glasgow, because Glasgow's full of foreigners." M741: Mmhm M605: Irish people. //You know, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.// M741: //Yeah.// M605: And so Glasgow is left out //entirely// M741: //Mmhm// M605: of the the SND. M741: Mmhm [inhale] It seems that, that seems to be really endemic though, that urban, urban Scots seems to be bad, sort o correlated with bad Scots and rural Scots is good Scots. //Er// M605: //Mmhm// M741: and that's I think that's th- an impression that is even right up to the modern day, that, you know, you go and ask a a a schoolkid, you know, "do you, do you speak Scots?", they'll probably say no. But they'll they'll prob-, there's so much S- Scottish things goin on. Ehm, but it's just become so intimately correlated with, you know, if you speak, if you speak an urban variety then you're speakin, you know it's bad, it's bad Scots. Er, which is which is a real shame, //I think.// M605: //And it's not as if like ehm// M741: But it's interestin, that, that's kind of gone along with Irish immigration as well. //I didn't know about that.// M605: //Well I mean y-y-y-// you sh- you wou-, you shouldn't accept it, but I I I mean I'll put the argument in, M741: You think that's a m- main factor or //s- contributing factor?// M605: //I think them the ehm, I// think that the, the impetus, the cultural nationalism, M741: Mmhm M605: which we had in the early twentieth century //in Scotland,// M741: //Mmhm// M605: part of the driving force of this was a feeling that Scottish culture was under threat, as a result of immigration. M741: Right. M605: And that is part of the, kind of, the context in which you have, you have the poetic revival, //you have// M741: //Mmhm// M605: some of the scholarly - I haven't really looked too far into scholarly projects //yet, but might -// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: but, based on that thing in the SND, I'm thinking, well, this is what, this is the cultural context in which people are beginning to worry about Scottish culture. //They're gonna worry// M741: //Mmhm// M605: about the survival of Scottish culture. Why in the early, ehm, nine-, the early ehm nineteen-hundreds? And then the thing I was looking at yesterday was Jamieson's dictionary. M741: Right, yeah. M605: Right? And, the introduction to Jamieson's dictionary, and ehm a guy put me on to this at a conference, M741: Mmhm M605: Ehm, the introduction to Jamie-, cause it's into [inaudible] I'm not really a linguist, but I end up, you know, cause of the questions I ask kind of going down these kind of //routes,// M741: //Mmhm// M605: and you're not goin to ask a lot of advice off linguists, //you know,// M741: //Right.// M605: But, Ja-, the introduction to Jamieson's dictionary, ehm, all it is is it's a racial tract saying that ehm the Lowland Scots are descended from the Picts, M741: Uh-huh M605: the Picts ehm are a Germanic people M741: Mmhm M605: who came to Scotland and this, you know, the the Northern part of this //island, which you know// M741: //Mmhm// M605: [inaudible] in what's now Scotland, from, ehm, you know, Northern Germanic Europe, M741: Mmhm M605: ehm, in that they were different people from the Anglo-Saxons, they spoke a Germanic language, and the language that Lowland Scots speak today is a d- direct descendant of the language that their Germanic ancestors spoke when they first came to, ehm, when they first came to this island. //Right?// M741: //Mmhm// M605: So what they're basically saying is that, ehm, he spends, whole thing, it's called "dissertation on the origins of the Scottish language" //And// M741: //Mmhm// M605: wh- all it is is a big tract ehm trying to completely dissociate the Lowland Scots from any Celtic provenance M741: Right. M605: at all. Instead of saying "the Picts", this is eighteen hundred or something, //instead of// M741: //Mmhm// M605: sayin "the Picts, we don't really know much about them", M741: Mmhm M605: we know that the language that the people in this part of Scotland speak, is some form of Germanic speech, M741: Mmhm M605: with various influences. //Right?// M741: //Yeah.// M605: We know that. Ehm, where we came from ethnically, we don't really know. M741: Yeah. M605: Instead of saying that, he goes out of his way to say, whoever they are, they're certainly not Celtic. M741: Mmhm M605: Right, so there's a whole kind of. And that's what forms the introduction to his dictionary. M741: Yeah. M605: That that that is the introduction, there's no kind of. //It's almost like the// M741: //Mm// M605: the the, you know, the impetus for Jamieson writing his dictionary i-i- is is is influenced by this kind of whole ehm racial politics, //you know,// M741: //Mmhm// M605: which obviously has got implications for the relationship between Highlands and Lowlands, //the relationship// M741: //Mmhm// M605: between Scotland and Empire, M741: Yeah. M605: you know, ehm where are you in the imperial kind of //context?// M741: //Ah// M605: Are you, are you powerful or are you disempowered? M741: Yeah. //Oh, that sounds quite// M605: //So I keep, I keep// digging up and digging up and digging up //and then I'll// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: I'll hopefully finish it and then everyone can go "Rubbish!" //[laugh]// M741: //[laugh] No, no it sounds// quite, sounds quite interesting, like, it definitely wasn't anything like I don't know whether it would, like, just goin by what you said, whether it would be a main factor in in the kind of revival or whether it was kind of contributory //factor, but it is interestin to see why// M605: //[inaudible] [?]different talking[/?], yeah.// M741: like you say a big revival and a kinna cultural, cultural revolution, in s- some kind of way, happened two hundred years after, you know, we kind of get get taken over by England. M605: I mean I'm I'm lookin at a specific number o //writers.// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: And, it's definitely like ehm I'm not really talkin about spoken Scots. I'm just talkin about the the kind of academic an an literary //movements// M741: //Mmhm// M605: of the period, rather than a kinna more broad-based popular, M741: Right. M605: ehm, and certain people, like Hugh MacDiarmid gets exonerated, I don't, and one of the things I'm tryin to do is to say that like ehm, is to s- is to get rid of this idea that authenticity's a good thing. I wanna forget authenticity. M741: Right. M605: I wanna say, what is artificial is good, cause that's freedom. //Do you know what I mean, I I want to get a- get away// M741: //Yeah.// M605: from this idea of authenticity, cause I don't think authenticity is achievable. I think it's a pretence, whenever you claim to be authentic in writing. I think there's a I think there's a bit of //pretension goin on there.// M741: //I don't know, I// I think it's, I think it's probably more pretentious to be artificial, M605: Right. M741: in a lot of ways, and what what MacDiarmid did, admirable as it m- kinna was, I think was academic ag- arrogance, //in a lot// M605: //Right.// M741: o ways, and that, for that reason, I don't I don't really like MacDiarmid, but I think he he went sort of deliberately out of his way to be really obtuse. M605: In places he certainly did, //yeah.// M741: //Er,// An I, ehm, what's the point, like, he he even says, you know, that he wants his poetry to be read by, you know, the kind of average Joe in the street. M605: Hokum, you know, //I mean.// M741: //But that's// that, that's not the language that the average Joe in the street sh- street uses, I mean a [inaudible], c- you just, you know. It's not, it's not the language that normal people use an from a linguistic point of view like I had I had really big problems with MacDiarmid, like really big problems. ah, some of his stuff, his English stuff is r- is really interesting and his Scottish stuff is is interesting from a linguistic point of view, but not for the reasons that it's, you know, New Scots, it's I, this whole plastic Scots is eh really //strikes a chord with me// M605: //Mmhm// M741: I think it's, I think it's he w- really pretentious, arrogant that, to think that he would single-handedly make the Scots language new an accessible to everyone. But I just think that he'd do, he went [?]right[/?] about it completely the wrong way. M605: I think he's often ehm given too much, he's o- too much weight is placed upon him in terms //of what he's// M741: //Yeah.// M605: expected to have achieved. M741: Yeah. M605: Ehm, because on the one hand MacDiarmid undoubtedly is interested in, ehm you know, //the Scots language// M741: //[sniff]// M605: in a social way. //And he's interested// M741: //Yep.// M605: also in Gaelic, and he's interested //in these things, you know?// M741: //Yeah.// M605: But on the other hand, he's a he's a deep in the dye modernist poet, M741: Yeah. M605: in the same, you know, like ehm T S Eliot, M741: Mmhm M605: in a different way. ehm and not like T S Eliot in lots of ways, but a- or like, you know he's he's got big admiration for James Joyce, M741: Mmhm M605: you know ehm, so on the one hand he's got his politics, M741: Yeah. M605: but he's also got his ehm, he's also got his artistic //ambitions.// M741: //Yeah.// M605: And it's funny that, MacDiarmid kind of said something like well, cause you know he kind of moved away from Scots later in his career? M741: Yep. M605: And and he he almost says "well I can't do this on my own," M741: Yeah. M605: Right? //A- and it's almost as if he says// M741: //I think that way// M605: "I I wish that ehm Scots language would be ehm, you know, higher." Cause he's so socialist after all //so// M741: //Mmhm// M605: we'd be better considered and we'd have a a better place in the community, //you know?// M741: //Yeah.// M605: But, I'm not necessarily goin to do that myself. M741: Yeah. M605: I've also got a a vocation to be a modernist poet, and to, and one of the problems when we look at MacDiarmid, is that, first of all, his own pronouncements //are often// M741: //Mmhm// M605: qu- I think quite unhelpful in terms of reading his poetry. M741: Yeah. M605: but he's b- he's almost like he's he's being judged according to a criteria that he would never have seriously tried to achieve on his own, if you know what I mean. M741: Yeah. I don't know, like. M605: Because that's why like a lot of the early MacDiarmid, M741: Uh-huh M605: when I write in Scots, like, in prose, M741: Mmhm M605: I wouldn't write in that fashion because M741: Mm M605: I'm not tryin to achieve the effects that he's tryin to achieve in "the Bonnie Bruikit Bairn" or //the "Watergaw",// M741: //Yeah.// M605: you know, cause it's just different kinna M741: Yeah, I think //like// M605: //purposes, you know?// M741: the whole, I don't, you can't you can't create a language; it's just not the way that the //language// M605: //Language works.// M741: language works. It's it's a it's a dynamic, kinna, self-monitoring system, an i- and you can't, you can't change a single you can change a thing [inaudible], exactly like you were sayin there. Um but from what I can understand that, maybe earlier on in his career, he felt as if he was good enough to be able to do that. //Ehm// M605: //Yeah.// M741: to be able to single-handedly change it, and I d- I don't know. It's a shame that he never achieved, but this whole lack of standardisation, and he was using words from kinna all over the place, er you know, from right up the top of Scotland, right down in //the Borders,// M605: //Yeah.// M741: just kinna all over the place, [?]tried usin[/?] old dictionaries and stuff like that. Ehm, I think, if it had been a bit more standardised, and they've done, they've tried to do that, but I don't think that in my, in our lifetimes, I think Scots is probably gonna go down, rather than than than up. M605: Yes, there's seems to be quite a a mixed situation in terms of across the, the different schools, there are certain schools where //it's [?]probably[/?]// M741: //Yeah.// M605: very [inaudible] the poet they've got cause, I don't know how poets are really the people to look for for this sort of thing but I think the poet that g- that that writes in the most kind of ehm [exhale] sort of standard kind of //form is// M741: //Mmhm// M605: probably Robert Garioch. M741: [Tut], right. I'm not read any of his, well I think I've read a few, maybe, aye, bits and pieces of it. But, I think it's gottae, it's gotta come from the media. I think, once it gets accepted in in media, and it starts getting disseminated to a larger, //larger crowd,// M605: //Mmhm, yeah.// M741: er, and then education as well, I think media and education are the two main sort o bastions of of getting the kinna Scots //language, [inaudible].// M605: //I mean I think that like// that there's a lot of nonsense that's talked about with regard to kind of linguistic fascism in terms of the people who say ehm "don't try an standardise Scots", ehm, because you know that's just linguistic fascism, M741: Yeah. //you see that's// M605: //and it's [inaudible].// M741: exactly what happened with Standard English though, I mean, //all these dialects// M605: //and a lot of linguistic// M741: goin round about, and they went, "no this is the one that's got the most currency, we'll just use this one," //and then// M605: //Aye.// //[inaudible]// M741: //by a process// of media, I mean it was all printed books and stuff like that, that it became, //more standardised.// M605: //But I mean the the f-// I I couldnae say, well, it's just like technology, you know like, ehm, I I would be the last person to try and make speech in the country less diverse than it //is.// M741: //Mmhm// M605: But I mean this isn't ehm Tiananmen Square here, //you know?// M741: //Mmhm// M605: It's not like we're gonna have people goin round with, like, tape recorders listening, //to people,// M741: //Yeah, yeah.// M605: saying, "fa" instead of "wha", you know? M741: Yeah. //I think it'll, I think th-// M605: //It's not gonna happen.// M741: they only need to have a really a written standard. I don't think //they've gotta// M605: //No.// M741: have a a a s- obviously you can't have a spoken standard but I think if they get a written standard, then their, you know, the battle's kind of half won. But that's the thing, you look at the S- like the the SND, you've got so many different spellings for so many different things. I mean do you spell "faa" without an 'a', with an apostrophe, with a 'w'? I mean, wh- how how do you spell it? M605: I mean th- I think the most positive way I can find o thinkin about ehm standard written Scots is just to say, it would be useful to have a standard form available. //Right?// M741: //Mmhm// M605: Now, you don't have to use it. M741: Yeah. M605: But it's the one that we're gonna teach in schools. M741: Yeah. M605: Right? That's all I'm gonna say, and Tom Leonard's not gonna use it, and Irvine Welsh is not gonna use it, but why the Hell would they? M741: Yeah. M605: You know, th-th-th-th- they don't need to. //It's not their// M741: //Yeah.// M605: that's not their purpose, //you know,// M741: //Yeah.// M605: that's not why they're tryin to do. //Ehm,// M741: //Yeah.// M605: and, y- no-one's gonna go round telling an adult how to write letters. No-one's gonna go round telling an adult what to do when he writes a letter to //the newspaper.// M741: //Mmhm// M605: You know? But when you're gonna teach kids, then you've gotta have M741: You've gotta //have one, you've gotta// M605: //But it's ju- but it's just, it's just// it's just technology, it's just like, the a a technological //tool, you pick a system// M741: //you pick a system and eh,// M605: but it but it's not like you're trying to say "do this" and "don't do that". //It's just that// M741: //Yeah.// M605: if you don't give teachers some kinna resource, //then// M741: //Mmhm// M605: they're gonna go, [inaudible] how did, how much time did you waste, tryin to M741: Yeah, yeah, definitely, I mean I think when I was writing ma stuff, it was it was a case of what I felt w- was Scottish, and then if I wanted to go and get a Scottish word or wh-, you know, look up the SND and try and get a translation, but I never, like I remember havin this conversation with you last time, like I never ever wrote straight off in Scots. //I// M605: //Mm// M741: just, ma mind just wasn't, i- isn't wired for it now. Eh, I wrote in English and then //translated.// M605: //Mmhm// M741: I, which I said, I I think you kind of lose a lot of the er //the the, yeah, the kind of nuances of it, yeah.// M605: //Idiomatic kind of ehm syntax and, yeah.// Yeah. M741: But, that's the only way I could do it, because when I was growin up an gettin taught, it was Standard English, Standard //English, Standard English.// M605: //Yeah.// M741: See when I'm writing now, I've gotta think in Standard English, lo- there's no way that I I can do anything else. M605: See I think my English flows better having written in Scots, because I think more about //flowing// M741: //Yeah.// M605: spoken English now. M741: Yeah. M605: Ehm, but with that, I mean I didn't write in a Standard form M741: Mmhm M605: or anything, like I definitely marked out my writing as I sa-, I used "whae" //W-H-// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: A-E. M741: Right. M605: And I used "yin", M741: Right. M605: and I used ehm certain other forms which were definitely kind of, just like when I had to choose choose between a form, like I would never say, ehm I couldn't use "whaur", cause it's "where", //where I come from,// M741: //Mmhm// M605: Right? I wouldn't use ehm "brack", I'd use "breck", //you know like// M741: //Right.// M605: "time for yer breck." M741: Yeah. M605: Yeah? M741: Wher- where are you from again? M605: E- East Lothian. M741: Right. M605: Although I've lost ma accent completely. //But I definitely// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: marked it all out as, in in these forms. M741: Mmhm M605: Ehm, but I mean, th-, it's not, it's not all the huge amounts of kind of phonological difference, //more than you can// M741: //Mmhm// M605: cope with. I mean, if you're gonna use something like "awa". M741: Mmhm M605: Right? In my dialect that's pronounced "away". M741: Yeah, aye, see I would never say "awa". I would always say "away". M605: But the broadest Scots speakers //would in// M741: //Aye, would say "awa", aye.// M605: in, but where I come from the broadest Scots speakers would say "away". M741: Right. Right. M605: Because it's like it's almost like Tyneside. M741: Uh-huh M605: Right? An an as far as I understand it, like like it's it's not "twa" it's "twae". M741: Right. [yawn] M605: It's ehm, it's "away", //in the same// M741: //Mmhm// M605: the same vowel. M741: Yep. M605: And it's not "wha" it's "whae" as well. It's always like where, it's kind of like Central Scots has the "aw". M741: Mmhm They //have "a".// M605: //South-East Scots// is kind of an "a" //sound, right?// M741: //Yeah.// M605: In, but if I read like a book and it says "awa" I'll just pronounce it "away", M741: Mmhm M605: because that's my dialect an //it doesn't bother me. You don't need// M741: //I found, yeah.// M605: to overspell, you don't need to spell everything out. M741: Yeah. M605: If we did that would be usin the IPA, M741: Yeah. M605: and no-one does that. //You don't need to represent// M741: //Yeah, you're right.// M605: everything in M741: Yeah. M605: you know? M741: I don't know, I th- I think it will be interestin to see, cause I know there is, there are current-, an awful lot of initiatives goin on just now in schools, and stuff //like that, to get.// M605: //John's quite involved, isn't he?// M741: Yeah, yeah, they're doin a, I think it's himself and Jeremy, I'm not sure. a- are doin a a a reader of Scots grammar. There's maybe John and Simon. I can't remember, it's one of //them.// M605: //Simon// Horobin? M741: Yeah. //I// M605: //Right.// M741: I I'm not sure who it is though. But they're doin a a Scots grammar. //Eh, cause. Yeah.// M605: //With schools in mind, or?// M741: Yeah, //and they// M605: //Right.// M741: were involved in eh, i- setting up the exam questions an stuff like that, I'm sure as well, for the //SQA.// M605: //Right.// M741: Ehm. But th- they they've been an awful lot involved and obviously John's written, you know, a book on on Scottish grammar, Scottish, and Scottish literature M605: Oh, aye, "Language and Scottish //Literature", yeah, yep.// M741: //Yep.// Ehm, as well, so they're all, they're all really involved in it, but. Er, I don't think, it's not got, it s- it can't come from from universities, it's got- it's gotta come from primary schools, it's gotta it's gotta start, like you say, one to ten in English and in Scots, it's it's gotta come from, it's gotta start there, I think. Er, and then just pick a system an an they they stick to it. And I know like talking to John an Jeremy and stuff like that, that all these kinna Scottish language meetings and stuff like that, it gets quite animated, you know, how how do you spell "faa"? You know, like, a- and people get really emotional about it, and then it always comes down, you know, they say, they spell it like this in Lothian, they spell it like this in Borders, they spell it like this in the Highlands. That's all well and good, let them spell it like that, where the- when they want to, but there's there's gotta be there's //gotta be a standard, there's gotta be some sort o// M605: //Some kind of resource for teachers.// The other thing is that when I'm writing, I'm thinking, well, I'm tryin to keep an eye open and say, I don't, if I'm being like completely selfish, I might not like the look of that on the page, M741: Aye. M605: but what is the current trend? M741: Yep. M605: What is the current trend? And ehm, cause one of the things about spelling is that you want people to be able to just read very quickly, M741: Yeah. //Which I find really difficult, yeah.// M605: //And reco-, recognition.// M741: Cause when I was reading Welsh, Irvine Welsh, er, I couldn't, like, you had to kinna either read it out loud, or spend a lot of time readin it. M605: Yeah. M741: Er, and ma friend, Emma, she she can't read, she couldn't read it at all. Cause she grew up, it was all Standard English, and she's quite middle class and all the rest of it. Ehm, but w- she couldn't read Irvine Welsh at all. She just couldn't get a hold of the, what she was seein on the page. M605: I mean I think with someone like Irvine Welsh, you'd probably say, "go fuck yourself". M741: Yeah. M605: But, cause, I think th- in in the context of some of this writing, there's a certain element of trying to challenge you. M741: Yeah. //Yeah.// M605: //And from a// literary and political perspective, you can see, like with Leonard, for //instance,// M741: //Yep.// M605: You know? M741: Yeah, yeah, //definitely.// M605: //"If you dinnae understaun// what I'm daein, just get the fuck oot ma road." M741: Aye, aye. //Yep, yeah.// M605: //Or something like that, kind of, Leonard says.// Ehm to totally [?]balderdise[/?] and [laugh] paraphrase Tom Leonard, //but// M741: //Yeah.// M605: in that context, it's like, the difficulty might be part of the, part of the game. M741: Mmhm M605: Yeah. M741: But, I don't know, we'll wait, I think we'll wait and see what happens, and hopefully, you know, over the next sort of five, ten years or so there'll be //actually movements.// M605: //It's it's it's about// i-i- it's about, like, political will, to be honest, it's about, I don't mean political will in a top-down way from Holyrood. //I mean// M741: //Yeah.// M605: political will in a, do the people want to do it. M741: Yeah. I don't know, I don't think they do, cause I think there's so many, so much negative feelin about about //Scots,// M605: //I think it// varies a lot //regionally.// M741: //Eh// yeah, I mean, the- the- it all comes back to this whole urban-rural thing. You go up to say Aberdeenshire, you know, up there, Scots is, Scots is good. You come down to Glasgow, Scots is is //bad.// M605: //But also in Aberdeen// city, Scots is good. M741: Yeah, yeah. //I don't know I// M605: //Yeah.// M741: think that's a lot, I mean, even though it's still quite, it's still far, it's still North, and it's still quite in a sort of rural, secluded sort of area. Whereas I think, you know, G- Glasgow is, it's right in the Central Belt, it's it's really industrialised, a lot round about it, whereas kinna Aberdeen's just kinna //"doomph",// M605: //Yeah.// //I think it almost goes like the further south you go,// M741: //there and a lot round about it.// M605: like this it gets less //prestigious.// M741: //Yeah.// M605: So that in Dundee city, you're starting to change, like what, between Aberdeen and Dundee, you're startin to get less //sympathetic,// M741: //Yeah.// M605: till in Edinburgh which has got huge amounts of traditional Scots features in it, //which// M741: //Mmhm// M605: Glasgow has, I won't say lots, Glasgow Scots has developed in a different way, //you know?// M741: //Yeah.// M605: Ehm and then Edinburgh, Edinburgh Scots I'm I'm, I imagine is more traditional; //it's not developed.// M741: //Mm// M605: It's more conservative than Glaswegian Scots is, //perhaps. Right?// M741: //Yeah. I don't// I don't know, I //I'm not really, I've never// M605: //[inaudible] sayin, [inaudible]// M741: Never really looked at Edinburgh, er, //Scots.// M605: //I mean, just from a// from a vocabulary point of //view, like// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: The verb "ken" is still used in Edinburgh, all the time, M741: Right. M605: whereas in Glasgow, it's not really heard much now. M741: Um M605: Or do you hear it a lot in, when, in your studies? M741: I still use "ken". //Um// M605: //I think it's heard in Lanarkshire and Ayr-, it's// definitely heard in //Ayrshire.// M741: //Yeah.// //But I don't know,// M605: //But I think actually in Glasgow// //itself, in the city of Glasgow,// M741: //yeah, cause I've// not really heard all that many like recordings and stuff like that, of of the kids, er, of like the informants actually talkin, er, cause a lot of the Scots, like, a lot of the media work that's bein done just now is all on schoolkids. //Er, so// M605: //Yeah.// M741: there's like a whole //range of er,// M605: //Well that's in s-// M741: recordins, cause they're all the ones who, who, well, I mean, we're not lookin, they're not looking at it, er, you know, "how Scottish is Glaswegian?" they're lookin at, you know, "how's language changin?" //"How's the Scots// M605: //Mmhm, yeah.// M741: language changin in Glas- in in Glasgow? Ehm, but I don't know how, how Scottish it is, and that's one of the things I'm kinna lookin at, //I suppose, as well.// M605: //Yeah, I mean i-i-// i-i- it's kind of a loaded question, but I think, it's fa- just like as a, as a lay-person, ehm ma perception is that Edinburgh's kind of a more conservative //form of Scots than// M741: //Mmhm// M605: Glasgow is, or has been, M741: Yeah. M605: in certain //ways.// M741: //Yeah.// M605: Just anecdotally, just that there's certain things which have survived M741: Mmhm M605: ehm or have not mo- changed as fast, M741: Yeah. M605: in Edinburgh. Like, you still hear a lot of "whae", where you don't really hear "wha" much in the c- the centre of Glasgow. M741: Yeah, I think //there's a// M605: //You know?// M741: a, I think there's like different like obviously different pressures, and stuff like that, that's happened in Glasgow that's maybe not happened in Edinburgh. //Er// M605: //Yeah, of course.// And I think like that immigration's part of that. //But,// M741: //Mmhm// M605: I mean, one of the reasons that I'm quite agitated by this research that I'm doin, is that why is immigration necessarily a bad thing, you know? //And there's a// M741: //Yeah.// //I don't think// M605: //you know I hate that.// M741: it's viewed, well, not in Glasgow, well, I don't know. M605: I think it depends where you are. M741: Yeah. See, this is the thing, like, I think there is definitely divided in opinion whether immigration is good or bad. You get all these like kinna reactionary people "Oh yeah," you know, "immigration's really bad", an from a sort of economic point of view, that's I think the- they're focussing on that, but I think in in Glasgow, like, the the numbers of immi- like the numbers o immigrants that we actually get, from a linguistic point of view it's like, obviously kind of reinvigoratin Glaswegian, I suppose, but. M605: I mean I stay in Govanhill now. M741: Right. M605: I moved down the southside, and that's kind of an area kind of //which has had a// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: a history of immigr- immigration //in the last kinna// M741: //Yeah.// M605: couple o hundred years. And so it's very interestin //listenin to people.// M741: //Yeah.// //I think it's quite an// M605: //[inaudible]// M741: uncomfortable area to be lookin at though, cause I think it has like the potential to be quite racist in its kinna orientation, when you start like lookin at immigration from like, I don't know. Do you see what I'm sayin? It's //like// M605: //What, as an o-// as an area of study? M741: Yeah. M605: I mean the motivation behind my study is kind of a, is very politically sort of a, ehm, there are people who are disguising in the nineteen-twenties and thirties, //ehm// M741: //Mmhm// //Concern for, yeah.// M605: //And some of them aren't even disguising it, ehm.// //A kind of// M741: //[inaudible]// M605: antiquarian Scottish concern. And what they're doin is they're actually usin that to disguise ehm //absolute racialist kind of// M741: //A kind of rac- racial, yeah.// M605: politics, //which which// M741: //Yeah.// M605: I want to kind of expose //in that sort of way, you know, that's kind of a mo- that's// M741: //Yeah, I think that, that, I think that's what I'm saying. It's like// M605: that's the motive behind what I'm doin. M741: Yeah. M605: It's kind of just to say, well, actually, you know, M741: Ye- they're basically racists? M605: Well not all of them, not not I I mean I don't want to be, be, kind of cause I'm you don't want to get right down into talkin about authors all the //time but// M741: //Mmhm// M605: there are implications to what is bein done //here, there are// M741: //Mmhm// M605: political implications to these artistic //choices, and// M741: //Yeah.// M605: and there's a political context in which this has arisen. //And if we're gonna// M741: //Mmhm// M605: talk meaningfully about early twentieth-century Scottish culture, M741: Mmhm M605: we just can't do it outwith the context of changes in society at the time, and //how that's affec-.// M741: //Aye, yeah, yeah.// M605: You know? And that's, I, you know, I'm not int- I don't want people to be sayin, "For some reason in the nineteen-twenties there's a renewed interest in the Scots language, and they were all good left-wing people." //[laugh] Because they weren't.// M741: //Yeah, [laugh].// //Yeah, yeah, no I d-// M605: //You know? Some of them were.// M741: That is, I think that's exactly why I would be quite uncomfortable like kinna lookin at it. Eh, from like that, ye- because I think it would be quite disturbing to find that there actually, that's that's what the reality was. //Er// M605: //But no, I don't mean, I'm not sayin it's// for all people. I don't think it was hugely important to MacDiarmid, for instance. M741: Yeah, yeah. M605: Ehm I don't think it, necessarily made a great deal of difference in a lot of //contexts.// M741: //Mmhm// M605: Ehm, but I certainly think it was part of the the prevailing climate. M741: Yeah, yeah, definitely. M605: Which I think is a bit more interesting than just saying "everybody who wrote in Scots, nineteen-twenties, was a socialist". Well they werenae. M741: Yeah. //Aye, yeah, definitely.// M605: //[laugh]// You know? M741: I I don't know how, it would be interestin to see, cause you don't really get a lot of things just now on on writing and immigration. I don't think it's, it's a, it's a big, it's a big deal, just //now.// M605: //I don't think it's// a big deal in Scotland //anyway,// M741: //But.// //See I think that's a// M605: //for whatever reason.// M741: like you get, you've you've got the two camps, like people who do think it's a problem and people who don't think it's a problem. I don't, I I'm //one of the, I don't think// M605: //Mmhm, yeah.// M741: it is a problem, but, it would be interestin to see maybe in fifty years or so, a hundred years or so, people lookin back and seein if there's the same kind of correlations that that you're kind of lookin at in the sort of early nineteen //hundreds.// M605: //I think it actually// affects, like, if you look at ehm see if you compare the writing, it's something to do with like rural Scots and urban Scots, //right?// M741: //Mmhm// M605: But see if, and I'm not gonna mention anybody in the other camp because I don't know if there's a really big repsen- representative of it, //And I've not// M741: //Mmhm// M605: worked very much on contemporary Scots language poetry [inaudible], kind of Lallans movement //poetry.// M741: //Yep.// M605: Ehm, but if you look at, like, Irvine Welsh, Tom Leonard, James Kelman, M741: Mmhm M605: I don't know if you've come across Suhayl Saadi? M741: No. //No.// M605: //Right.// Glasgow writer, and his first novel, "Psychoraag" is set in an around Pollokshields. M741: Oh, right, cool. M605: Right? Glasgow Asian writer. An an that is kind of important to the language he uses. M741: Mmhm M605: you know, the whole kind of, there is a lot of, he, he uses a lot of Urdu in his //in his Scots.// M741: //Yeah, yeah.// M605: Ehm, how naturalistically, I don't know, and I'm not sure that he would necessarily be bothered by naturalism. //It's just kind of a kind of a thing.// M741: //Yeah, yeah, his.// M605: But if you look at this whole, you know, explosion in urban Scots writing in the nineteen-nineties, you know, from Kelman through Irvine Welsh, and //now Suhayl Saadi,// M741: //[yawn] Yep.// M605: then, and then of course it's got its precedents beforehand M741: Yeah. M605: and you look at these group o writers, ehm and you start to think, well, why are, you know, why is, is there a division between like a Lallans group of writers and M741: Mm M605: and er, and these kind of urban writers, and what's //what is the// M741: //Mmhm// M605: difference, what is the? Why wouldn't Irvine Welsh adopt these kinna strategies? M741: Mmhm M605: Part of the dif- difference is obviously poetry and prose, M741: Yeah. M605: because there's not been a huge amount of Lallans prose, M741: Yeah, no, yeah, //I know what you mean.// M605: //But// "But n Ben A-Go-Go" is er A rare a rare kind of exa- ehm M741: [Tut] I think I've heard of, I think I've heard of him but I've not read it. M605: It's eh, like, cause it's a science fiction, then, he he gets //round the whole thing cause he says well "it's// M741: //Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've f-// M605: it's it's a futuristic world, I //can,// M741: //Yep.// M605: they can speak wh-" - science fiction always does that, //always creates// M741: //Yeah.// M605: new languages for itself, doesn't it? //You know?// M741: //Yeah.// M605: Ehm, I think it's like it's part of [?]reason[/?] is poetry and prose but part of it's also rural-urban and it's //it's what's kinna// M741: //Mmhm// M605: going on with. M741: Yeah, see I think that's like, that's definitely one of the things like Tom Leonard does, that urban Scots is just as intrinsically valuable as as rural Scots is. M605: Mmhm M741: Er, and he made, I think he's actually one of the poets who's really good at this whole dicom- the, sorry, dichotomy between language and literature. He kind of brings them together really really effectively. Er //which is, oh aye, he he// M605: //He's very intellectual, very high-brow in his// M741: he's really really good, like, I think some of his stuff's fantastic. Um M605: Very crisp, in what //it's in it's// M741: //Yeah.// //[inaudible] yeah.// M605: //perceptiveness and// M741: cause he he he he notices things that I think everyone notices, but no-one says anythin about. M605: Mmhm M741: He's like, you know, things like the nine o'clock news. An the the chap drinkin beer and listenin to the classical music and stuff like that. I- it probably all happens but no-one ever talks about it. //An,// M605: //Tom Leonard is// where I got the thing about the Scottish National Dictionary. M741: Right. M605: Because he says, you know, ma language is sacred. //Well, it's no ma la-// M741: //Mmhm// M605: [inaudible] that's the end line, but the fi- first line is ehm "Ma language is disgraceful." //You know? [inaudible] "Ma weans tellt// M741: //Mmhm// M605: an ma wife tellt me, it goes down down down." And one of the lines is "Even the introduction tae the Scottish National Dictionary telt me". M741: Right. //Aye.// M605: //Right?// And at that point I say "Aye-up, what's goin on here?" M741: Aye, yeah, yep. M605: And the other thing is it's like, is it impertinent to say well, Tom Leonard's a a a Scottish Catholic? Is that impertinent? //Now, an if you lo-// M741: //Mm// M605: if you go to American literary studies, //right?// M741: //Uh-huh// M605: People are doin this kind of stuff all the time. M741: Uh-huh M605: They're sayin, well we've got like particular concerns from people in different kind of communities //religious,// M741: //Mm// M605: ethnic, whatever kind of communities, you know? whereas Tom Leonard, and he's he's often talked about as the Glaswegian champion, you know? M741: Mmhm M605: has this line, even the introduction to the Scottish National Dictionary tellin me M741: Mmhm M605: And when you follow the reference, the reference is, ehm "owing to the influx of Irish and other el- immigrants," M741: "[inaudible] Glasgow //dialect's hopelessly corrupt."// M605: //Glasgow, yeah, right,// and that's it. //And that's// M741: //Mmhm// M605: an an an Tom Leonard, I mean, we know that Leonard has, has, comes from like, you know, a Catholic community, //He's got an// M741: //Mmhm// M605: Irish surname, I mean. //An an don't you just// M741: //Yeah.// M605: start to think, well //wh-wh-// M741: //[?]With all the links.[/?]// M605: What is, what is he sayin? //What is he sayin?// M741: //Mmhm// M605: Is he talkin about, "I'm bein excluded because I'm Glaswegian"? M741: Mmhm M605: Or is he sayin //that and somethin else?// M741: //Because I'm, yeah.// //Because of his heritage.// M605: //And there's a certain kind of don't// don't mention, don't mention sectarianism, //you know like// M741: //Yeah.// M605: and Scottish Nationalists are terrible for this as well, because, like ehm like I mean I'm workin a bit on kind of, like, I I don't think sectarianism is the right word, M741: Right. M605: cause I think there's anti-Catholicism, and there's anti-Irishness, and they don't always coincide. M741: Mmhm M605: You know? Ehm, and that's just one side of the thing, //you know?// M741: //Mmhm// M605: I don't think sectarian is quite the right word, but I'm workin on these kind of questions quite a lot. M741: Aye. M605: Ehm, [CENSORED: utterance] M741: Yeah, we're quite happy here. This work is protected by copyright. All rights reserved. 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Information about document and author: Audio Audio audience Adults (18+): Specialists: For gender: Males Audience size: 2 Audio awareness & spontaneity Speaker awareness: Aware Degree of spontaneity: Spontaneous Audio footage information Year of recording: 2005 Recording person id: 631 Size (min): 64 Size (mb): 308 Audio setting Education: Recording venue: Lecturer's office Geographic location of speech: Glasgow Audio relationship between recorder/interviewer and speakers Acquaintance: Speakers knew each other: Yes Audio speaker relationships Members of the same group e.g. schoolmates: Other: Both postgraduate students in SESLL Audio transcription information Transcriber id: 718 Year of transcription: 2005 Year material recorded: 2005 Word count: 14078 Audio type Conversation: Participant Participant details Participant id: 605 Participant Participant details Participant id: 741 Gender: Male Decade of birth: 1980 Educational attainment: University Age left school: 18 Occupation: Student Place of birth: Lanark Region of birth: Lanark Birthplace CSD dialect area: Lnk Country of birth: Scotland Place of residence: Glasgow Region of residence: Glasgow Residence CSD dialect area: Gsw Country of residence: Scotland Father's place of birth: Lanark Father's region of birth: Lanark Father's birthplace CSD dialect area: Lnk Father's country of birth: Scotland Mother's place of birth: Wishaw Mother's region of birth: Lanark Mother's birthplace CSD dialect area: Lnk Mother's country of birth: Scotland Languages: Language: English Speak: Yes Read: Yes Write: Yes Understand: Yes Circumstances: Language: Scots Speak: Yes Read: Yes Write: Yes Understand: Yes Circumstances: