| M964 |
So last night, someone used a term I hadn't heard before, which was 'casuals'.
And er and
//[?]could you[/?]// |
| F965 |
//They're sort of hooligans, aren't they?// |
| M964 |
It was along that line, and I I hadn't heard that term before. |
| F963 |
Was it was is 'casual' or 'casuals'? |
| M964 |
Casuals. |
| F965 |
Who call them casuals? |
| F963 |
Ayr casuals.
//That's// |
| M964 |
//Yeah.// |
| F963 |
that's how I've often heard it. |
| F965 |
D- were they about when you were wee? |
| F963 |
Er, when I was in secondary school, people used to talk about having a run in with the casuals,
in Ayr. |
| F965 |
I thought they were a little bit like a version of the Mods of old times,
you know the, they wore a kind of, they all wore the same thing. |
| F963 |
Yeah, uh-huh.
They were kind of, as I understood it, they were kind of fairly smartly dressed
//kind of club type, sort of "wine bar-y" [laugh]// |
| F965 |
//That's what I thought too, yes, yes,//
//yes, because the Mods// |
| M964 |
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//almost [laugh].// |
| F965 |
the Mods were in opposition to the Rockers who were the kind of
//greasy guys.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
Yeah. |
| F965 |
And the casuals I thought were kind of, you know, th- they were very concerned about what they wear. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And it would be things like erm, well designer, you know, these things with the crocodiles on them.
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
//Oh right. [laugh] Lacoste?//
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.//
//[laugh] Yeah.// |
| F963 |
//Pringle, things like that?// |
| F965 |
I think that's that's, I'd forgotten about casuals. |
| M964 |
Mm |
| F965 |
//What did the- is this something recent?// |
| F963 |
//Well, the- they were// |
| M964 |
Well I was kind of wondering what the what the era of it was too, and
//it made me think of the Mods and Rockers for that, and what you were saying before about// |
| F963 |
//Mm, mmhm, [inaudible]// |
| F965 |
They would be in your day?
//Mm, mmhm.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah, I remember the term, yeah.//
But they were kind of opposite to the people that were in to rock music
//and went to other venues, so it was kind of like a split between the two.// |
| F965 |
//Right, it's almost the same. Yeah. Mmhm, mmhm.// |
| F963 |
But what was it like in your day? |
| F965 |
Erm, well, Mods and Rockers were a wee bit late for me,
//really, ish.// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm//
//But you had teddy boys?// |
| F965 |
//Erm,//
well, the the the teddy boys here were the boys who hadn't stayed at school,
//you know they were the kind of// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
the kids that had gone out to work.
And, I don't know if they spent an awful lot of money on their clothes, but they certainly had
//their// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
clothes were very central. |
| F963 |
But there was still kind of a like a sort of dress code,
//kind of thing?// |
| F965 |
//Oh yeah.//
//And they had their hair// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
like Elvis. |
| F963 |
Mmhm
//The quiff an// |
| F965 |
//They always had their hair like Elvis.//
//I suppose there were// |
| F963 |
//stuff, yeah.// |
| F965 |
some sticking up ones, you know, like more modern looking ones.
But the the look was very erm rock and roll. |
| F963 |
Mmhm mmhm
//Brothel-creepers// |
| F965 |
//[tut] And// |
| F963 |
for shoes?
//Yeah? Mm// |
| F965 |
//Yeah, thick-sole, crêpe-sole shoes, usually.//
Er, we didn't have a lot of teddy-boys here. |
| F963 |
Mm
//Mm// |
| F965 |
//But the- they tended to be thought of as as kind of dangerous.//
//And a wee bit// |
| F963 |
//Right, uh-huh// |
| F965 |
erm, not respectable. |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm |
| F965 |
And they talked about teddy-girls, |
| F963 |
Mm
//I haven't heard of that before, yeah.// |
| F965 |
//which was funny but that that was their girlfriends.//
//The teddy-girls// |
| F963 |
//Right.//
//Hung out with the teddy-boys.// |
| F965 |
//were their girlfriends.//
But I think I think it was a relatively, you know, quite a broad term for a teddy-boy's girlfriend, but
//they would wear, [laugh] like// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
tight skirts or s- very sticky-out skirts. |
| F963 |
Oh sort of fifties
//kind of classic style, yeah.// |
| F965 |
//Yes, yes, well it was a fifties thing//
//more than anything.// |
| F963 |
//Uh-huh// |
| F965 |
I don't think they lasted, I think I think people like John Lennon probably went through a teddy-boy phase.
//And I I suppose the arty, the art school people might have taken it up, but they were more kind of beatnik.// |
| M964 |
//[inaudible]// |
| F963 |
//Mm mm.//
Mm mmhm.
Did you hang out with that crowd when you were in Glasgow? |
| F965 |
Oh no, by the time I went to Glasgow, I don't think there were any teddy-boys. |
| F963 |
What about the sort of art school crowd, cause that's,
//they all seem to have their own sort of nightlife, or their own// |
| F965 |
//Yeah. They all looked like Jesus.//
//They all had long hair and be-, all the men// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//had beards.// |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And I liked that look. |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
[tut] Erm,
what can I say? |
| M964 |
But but, I mean one of the things I was curious about is that this seems almost like there is an odd sort of continuity,
from the teddy-boys, Mods, Rockers, erm, |
| F965 |
That division,
//yes.// |
| M964 |
//Right.//
And what was the opposite of, what what what would you have called the opposite of the erm
//of the casuals?// |
| F965 |
//Sort of bikers.// |
| M964 |
Bikers, [?]end of thing[/?], or? |
| F963 |
Sort o rock fans was often the
//often the term, you know, but// |
| F965 |
//Heavy metal//
//the the heidbangers.// |
| F963 |
//they were into, yeah, uh-huh.//
Well like like I was telling you earlier on, you know, the Pavilion, when I knew it in sort of early nineties, used to be a great rock venue.
It was really famous for that.
And then they started having raves there. |
| F965 |
Mmhm |
| F963 |
And then lots of people took lots of ecstasy and then died. [laugh]
//So// |
| F965 |
//Mmhm//
Stopped doing that. |
| F963 |
that was the end of that.
//Now it's closed the whole thing.// |
| F965 |
//Now it's Pirate Pete's [inaudible].//
//[laugh] Children's.// |
| F963 |
//You know, the the// |
| F965 |
Children's entertainment. |
| M964 |
//[inaudible]// |
| F963 |
//Punished the rock fans just as much by shutting the whole venue down, that was the end//
//of that.// |
| F965 |
//That's//
par for the course, of which.
//But you're right, there's a kind of a two-lane highway,// |
| F963 |
//Frustrated a lot of people as well.// |
| M964 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//of//
the people who, what about the indie band people, wh- where did they fall in? |
| F963 |
Alternative.
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//Yeah, but where did they come//
in between the the heidbangers and the casuals? |
| M964 |
//What is?// |
| F963 |
//They//
usually ally themselves with the with the rockers. |
| F965 |
Uh-huh |
| F963 |
They were, at least they were closer to each other in
//culture.// |
| F965 |
//I remember// |
| M964 |
Mm |
| F965 |
I remember Martha; she was a Mod. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
She was known as the Mad
//Mod, locally.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//And she had come up//
er from Nottingham. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
So she had all the the you know, the sort of, kind of, sort of very sophisticated
//English// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm//
//Was the family not Scottish?// |
| F965 |
//things.//
//Oh yeah.// |
| F963 |
//I thought they were.//
//Ah// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.//
But they had come - they'd moved to Nottingham -
//but they// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
came up, and sh- when she came back to Prestwick she was very very exotic. |
| F963 |
Mm mm |
| F965 |
She was more Mod than any Mod
//here,// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
and had to initiate them,
in her ways. |
| M964 |
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//Oh right.//
//So were her fashions more marked// |
| F965 |
//And [laugh]//
//Oh yes, i- i-// |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F963 |
//then, she was more, how how did that appear?// |
| F965 |
all, the most radical movements at that time definitely came from the South. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
And from here Nottingham is South. |
| F963 |
Mmhm
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//Although,//
you know, as far as a Londoner was concerned, that would be the sticks.
But they, they definitely had all the rock and roll and all the everything else coming from down there,
//you know?// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm// |
| F965 |
And when she came up here she was so Mod it was terrifying.
//[tut]// |
| F963 |
//Oh right.//
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//And [laugh]//
hairdressers became terribly, you know, big cultural icons.
//In the sixties, yes, hairdressers and photographers.// |
| M964 |
//Really?// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
//Oh right, Lord Li- Lichfield and people that were sort of mm,// |
| F965 |
//And I remember she used to, how you had your hair// |
| F963 |
mmhm |
| F965 |
was crucial to how you looked in this
//Mod or Rocker thing.// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Well she had a really really really Mod haircut.
//And Mod clothes.// |
| F963 |
//What was that like then?//
//[?]Should remember what these are[/?]// |
| F965 |
//It was, I think it at that time very//
very so- bob, short bob. |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
Everything about them was very carefully contrived. |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm |
| F965 |
There was nothing ca- nothing casual.
//There was// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
nothing sloppy about the way
//they// |
| F963 |
//See when I//
think of Mods, I think of, you know, people wearing parkas, on mopeds,
//and listening to// |
| F965 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
ska music.
//It's a more kind of seventies version of what a Mod was,// |
| F965 |
//Mm, that was later, that was later.// |
| F963 |
so |
| F965 |
But I remember her saying, her, she was only a young girl,
//I remember her// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
absolutely epitomising this young thinking,
which was to ask you the question, are you a Mod,
or are you a Rocker? |
| F963 |
Mm |
| M964 |
Right. |
| F965 |
Because there's neither, you know, if you're not one of those, there's nothing else you can be. |
| F963 |
Right.
//Nothing in between.// |
| M964 |
//And Ringo's very famous response to that, which is that "I'm sort of a Mocker".// |
| F965 |
//Ah, very good, I never heard that one.// |
| F963 |
//[inaudible]// |
| F965 |
[inhale]
It must have been asked all over the place then.
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
But, I remember, even at my, you know, I'm sort of eight years older than her, and I remember thinking, "Gosh, that", you know, "that is a very young person's black and white
//definition".// |
| F963 |
//Mm right.//
//Which tribe are you?// |
| F965 |
//"You're not//
for me; you're against me." |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
You know, you're, if you're not a Mod you must be a Rocker. |
| F963 |
Mmhm
//Mmhm, mm, mmhm// |
| F965 |
//If you're not a Rocker, you must be a Mod. It was quite, quite an early revelation for me.// |
| F963 |
How did people tend to divide up into those groups?
Was there anything that you could say that would make one person more likely to be a Mod? |
| F965 |
No.
//Don't think so.// |
| F963 |
//Was it just entirely taste?// |
| F965 |
I think if you were erm,
middle class and still at school, |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
you might lean towards Mod, I don't know.
//But they used to have, when was, I'd forgotten this.// |
| F963 |
//Mm, mm.// |
| F965 |
They used to have pitched battles! |
| F963 |
Oh!
//Here?// |
| F965 |
//Did you [?]not[/?]//
//No not// |
| M964 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
here, |
| F963 |
Mm
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//as far as I know.// |
| M964 |
Well in Brighton, I think
//was the famous [inaudible]// |
| F965 |
//Brighton. They used to go// |
| F963 |
//Oh yeah, no I have heard of that.//
//Uh-huh. Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//an converge.//
So, I mean, although I'm saying that Mods tended to be more sort of correct looking, |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
you know, sort of, almost boringly dressed, |
| F963 |
Yeah, yeah. |
| F965 |
er, and Rockers were very in yer face, you know, erm,
and what could be poncier than riding a
scooter?
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//But erm, although they were so kind of [laugh] [inaudible] looking,//
they went, they assembled for these huge fights,
//and terrorised the locals.// |
| F963 |
//Aye.//
Right, uh-huh yeah. |
| F965 |
And I had totally forgotten about that until I heard a programme about
//it a wee while ago.// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm, no I think//
I think I have seen something on the TV
//about that.// |
| F965 |
//Aye, they were saying, you know,//
you think this
youth, vi- violent youth culture
//is just happening, and it was actually very serious.// |
| F963 |
//Mm yeah.// |
| M964 |
Was there an aspect of, about music involved in this,
cause it always seems like,
//through that continuum we're we're describing there seem to be two different kinds of music// |
| F965 |
//It-// |
| M964 |
//and two different ways of enjoying it,// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
//Yeah, yeah.// |
| M964 |
//and maybe two different drug cultures associated with those two things.//
Or would you have said that was true, all the way back
//in that continuum, or?// |
| F965 |
//Yes.//
//And yet, I never quite twigged to it, because I grew up with rock and roll,// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
//Mmhm// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
[tut] and it all so- you know some stuff sounded better than others to me,
but people like Rod Stewart was a Mod.
//He had Mod following.// |
| F963 |
//Hm//
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
Er, people like th- the Faces, you know, they were really Mod, Mod bon- bonds? [laugh] Mod bands, as far as I remember. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Because remember this was this was all a culture that I didn't belong to;
//it was too late for me.// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
//Right, uh-huh//
What, what were you? [laugh]
//Were you anything in particular?// |
| F965 |
//I loved rock and roll.//
//We di- I didn't dress for rock and roll.// |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F963 |
Right, uh-huh. |
| F965 |
It was, it became a, h- it also became an enormous industry.
//After// |
| M964 |
//Mmhm// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm// |
| F965 |
the sixties,
//or during the sixties I suppose.// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm, yeah.//
I suppose you kind of went, like you were saying about listening to things like the Laughing Policeman,
and sort of going from that into
//like your music.// |
| F965 |
//Well that was on, yeah.//
//That was on on the mainstream radio.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
Mm mmhm |
| F965 |
I- they presented you with what they thought was good for you. |
| F963 |
Mm
//Mm mm.// |
| F965 |
//You know, you got the Light Programme,// |
| M964 |
Mm |
| F965 |
[tut] which would be erm
i-i- it got a little bit better as I, just as I was in my teens, that they began to acknowledge that there was, you know, there was young music. |
| F963 |
Where was that broadcast from? |
| F965 |
London. |
| F963 |
Right. Uh-huh |
| F965 |
Mostly. I think they had s-, they had studios in the north of England, and they prob- probably had a Scottish studio; I don't remember. Mm.
But, erm, yeah they must have done because we got Scottish country dance music |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
played on it, so there must have been a Scottish eh version of the the Light Programme.
But the Light Programme played a lot of music.
And then when they started, erm, well actually before they started using pirate radio, |
| F963 |
Like Radio Luxembourg? |
| F965 |
No, Luxembourg wasn't a pirate,
//Luxembourg just broadcast.// |
| F963 |
//Oh right, or Caroline?//
//Was Caroline though, one of these on a boat?// |
| F965 |
//Yeah, they had pirate//
//radios out on ships, outside of the jurisdiction limit, presumably.// |
| F963 |
//Uh-huh, mm, mm.// |
| F965 |
And erm, cause they were all licensed.
[?]Do you[/?] need a licence to broadcast.
And erm, we used to get Radio Luxembourg,
which broadcast in whatever they talk, Luxemburgish? |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Is it that what they call it?
//Luxemburgish.// |
| M964 |
//Luxemburgish. Occasionally the [?]"luxembourgeoisique"[/?]//
//[inaudible]// |
| F965 |
//Right. [laugh]//
Well it broadcast, I think, all day,
//in Luxemburgish,// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm// |
| F965 |
and then, at the very end of the of the English-speaking programmes, there would be this voice speaking in in Luxemburgish; it sounded like German.
//[?]Hier ist[/?] Radio Luxembourg.// |
| M964 |
//It's it's German, German with a [inaudible]// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| M964 |
Well, it's German with a French [?]sauce[/?]. |
| F965 |
Right. |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
And they would close down the programme in that language.
But for the for the duration of the evening, from about six something, maybe six, it was all English-speaking programmes.
And a lot of them were American imports,
//like "Perry Mason",// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm.// |
| F965 |
lawyer detective and his faithful secretary, Della Street.
And you got advert-, you know, it was it was sponsored.
So you got erm advertising jingles that I had never heard
//before,// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
//Oh//
Mmhm |
| F965 |
erm, till ITV came on. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Th- Penguin biscuits sponsored a programme,
//and they had a// |
| F963 |
//Oh// |
| F965 |
club, |
| F963 |
Mmhm.
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//that you could join,//
//and be one of the penguin parade or whatever it was called, and erm,// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F965 |
//the best of it was that late at night you got erm Decca,//
//had a programme,// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm// |
| F965 |
and Capitol Records, and, you know, you got these records that you really had no way of hearing, |
| F963 |
Mm
//Right. uh-huh.// |
| F965 |
//except on Radio Luxembourg.// |
| F963 |
When did they start being available to you, you know, things that you
//[?]could go up[/?] and buy?// |
| F965 |
//Oh you could buy the records.//
//Oh you could buy the records.// |
| F963 |
//Oh it was available//
//somewhere, yeah?// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.//
But they were playing records that they didn't play on the Light Programme.
//They were playing Little Richard,// |
| F963 |
//Mm, right. Mmhm.// |
| F965 |
and erm a lot of things, Fats Domino, things that you would not hear on the mainstream radio. |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm. |
| F965 |
But then when you went out to the record shop you could buy it.
//But you heard it on Radio Luxembourg.// |
| F963 |
//Right. Yeah. Mmhm uh-huh.//
//You got the exposure there, so mmhm.// |
| F965 |
//Mmhm mmhm.//
Hm |
| M964 |
Separate question, that involves Christmas. |
| F965 |
Mmhm |
| M964 |
Um, in your, in your life, did the diff- did the different things that you eat at Christmas change,
for example, at one point was it more common to have one particular dish.
And then gradually it's become something else? |
| F965 |
[tut] I think in Scotland, traditionally,
a lot of people would still have a chicken,
for Christmas dinner,
when I was very young, |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm. |
| F965 |
because a chicken was a wee bit of a luxury still, |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
erm before they started factory farming.
//And it got so cheap.// |
| F963 |
//When would that be then, roughly?// |
| F965 |
Do you know? We always had a turkey. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
We always had turkey at Christmas.
But I know I'v- from talking to friends
a chicken was a big deal to have;
//you would have it maybe// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
on a Sunday lunch, |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
and some people still had that as their Christmas dinner
probably up until the sixties. |
| F963 |
Mmhm mmhm. |
| F965 |
And then turkey became almost universal I suppose. |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
And now turkey's kind of, you know, I don't know, |
| F963 |
People are seeming to be getting a bit bored with it.
//[inaudible] doing alternative things.// |
| F965 |
//[inaudible] think we'll have some goose, goose.//
//They want a traditional goose or or beef or something.// |
| F963 |
//Mm, mmhm.// |
| F965 |
I I don't know. We always had turkey.
Er, and we only had it at Christmas. |
| F963 |
Mm
//Right.// |
| M964 |
//Right.// |
| F965 |
//That was the only time you ever saw it; you couldn't buy it any other time.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah, it was still a treat then. Mm.//
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And it was a huge treat. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Erm |
| M964 |
It was for us for Thanksgiving; that's the same
//idea.// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.// |
| M964 |
But one of the nice things about Thanksgiving is that it was one of these rare meals in which you had a gazillion small plates of things, whether it was
//cranberry sauce or things like this.// |
| F965 |
//That's exactly right.//
//Yes.// |
| M964 |
//Did you have things like that, or,//
//[inaudible]// |
| F965 |
//Eh, accompaniments.//
//Yes.// |
| M964 |
//Accompaniments, yeah.// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm, yeah.// |
| F965 |
Yeah, it was a huge
//undertaking,// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm// |
| F965 |
And it was it was erm,
//You didn't have the// |
| F963 |
//I used to [inaudible] you know, cranberry sauce,//
//and things that I didn't really encounter the rest// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.//
//That's correct. And you didn't have// |
| F963 |
//of the year, for some reason, you know. It was always//
there at the Christmas dinner. |
| F965 |
I mean now you can buy stuff made.
//Or you can// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm mmhm// |
| F965 |
buy it frozen and keep it, you know.
But I remember the Christmas being such a palaver,
//the Christmas dinner.// |
| F963 |
//Mm.//
Yeah. |
| F965 |
Erm, because it all had to be, it all had to be made. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And it couldn't be made too much in advance,
//cause you couldn't// |
| M964 |
//Mmhm// |
| F963 |
//Right. Yeah.// |
| F965 |
store it. |
| F963 |
What about the cake? Was that done
//ages in advance?// |
| F965 |
//Oh!//
oh, the Christmas cake!
//[laugh] No, Anne used to make it.// |
| F963 |
//I seem to remember, di- did Jean not used to make it? She would.//
Oh I see, right.
//Uh-huh. Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//And she was awfully good at making it.//
But she was very unpredictable, but when she would produce it, |
| F963 |
[laugh] |
| F965 |
so you had the wait for the Christmas cake [laugh] that might appear.
The icing's still sort of soft
//on Christmas Eve, or, she would arrive at two o'clock in the morning// |
| F963 |
//[laugh] Mm// |
| F965 |
on Christmas Day with it. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
But ehm, she used to
//make it// |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F965 |
about October I suppose they would
//make it.// |
| F963 |
//Mm, I just, sort//
//of,// |
| F965 |
//Or earlier!// |
| F963 |
so saturated with alcohol
//that it was indestructible. [laugh]// |
| F965 |
//Put alcohol in it, yes. And it was,//
it would mature.
//It still does.// |
| F963 |
//Right.//
//Yeah. Mmhm// |
| F965 |
//I mean that's what, people still do that.//
And then ice it, marzipan and ice it. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
But she was very artistic, and it was always beautiful.
//It was always lovely.// |
| F963 |
//Mm. Aw.// |
| F965 |
But you never knew when it was go-, if it was gonna arrive [laugh].
//It always did.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
Always got here on time.
But you didn't have it until Christmas Day. |
| F963 |
Mm mmhm. |
| F965 |
You didn't have Christmas cake
//before Christmas Day.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
See, that was wh- something I found funny in the States, cause I sort of took it for granted that when I said "Christmas cake" people would think of a a thick fruit cake with lots of alcohol, and you know, and |
| F965 |
Marzipan and icing.
//They don't do that, do they?// |
| M964 |
//No.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah, and that was, that wasn't the same, you know that//
//The the whole concept wasn't the same// |
| F965 |
//They put fruit on the top, don't they?// |
| M964 |
//They do that, yeah,// |
| F963 |
//things.// |
| M964 |
//I mean there are some that are like that, those cakes are called something else, which because I haven't lived there in ten years eludes me,// |
| F965 |
//Mmhm mm// |
| M964 |
//but er// |
| F963 |
//Mm [laugh]// |
| M964 |
But yes, yeah it is a, it's a different
//thing, yeah, I I never had them as a as a kid and I presumed it was because my father hated them.// |
| F963 |
//But you take it for granted that it's the same, yeah.//
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
//Then//
I discovered, er quite by surprise, when we brought him a Christmas pudding, a Marks and Sparks Christmas pudding,
that he loved it! And it was apparently my
//mother who didn't like it.// |
| F963 |
//[tut] Oh!// |
| M964 |
[?]That was why[/?] we never had it. |
| F963 |
Yeah.
//Uh-huh// |
| F965 |
//That was, that was lucky.// |
| M964 |
Yes.
//Considering we were giving something that I knew he would hate.// |
| F965 |
//[laugh] [inaudible] he hated it.//
//Had you ever tasted a Christmas pudding before you came here?// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
No. |
| F965 |
Is there anything like it in America? |
| M964 |
Yes, there is,
//erm,// |
| F965 |
//What's it called?// |
| M964 |
there is er erm, it's it i- it is of course, because it's a more abstemious culture in a lot of ways, it it not going to be laced with so much alcohol. |
| F965 |
//Mmhm// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
//mmhm mm// |
| M964 |
//erm, it's just, what do they call it?//
//I used to refer to it, yeah I used// |
| F963 |
//Fruit, fruit loaf or something like that.// |
| M964 |
to refer to it as that brick.
//You know, more or less, because it wasn't it wasn't very// |
| F965 |
//Mm, oh! Was it like a cake?// |
| F963 |
//Mm. [laugh] Yeah.// |
| M964 |
It was like a cake. |
| F965 |
It'd be more like black bun, maybe. |
| M964 |
That could be. |
| F965 |
//Black bun is so dense.// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| M964 |
//Yes, it's very very dense.// |
| F965 |
//I kind of//
//like that.// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
//Mm mmhm.// |
| F965 |
//I tho- I think I like it better than Christmas pudding.//
They've started f- faffing about with Christmas puddings here now; it used to be just the Christmas.
And that was always made as well. |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
I remember my mother boiling this thing for hours and hours. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
You know, it was made from scratch,
//and it was// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
boiled, for hours,
with suet and I don't know what in it. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Excuse me.
And then it had to be boiled again on Christmas
//Day.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
Having been boiled before, you had to boil it again to heat it all the way through. |
| F963 |
Mm. Did you still do the wee setting on fire ritual
//with it, yeah?// |
| F965 |
//Yes.//
Yes, you you put brandy |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
brandy around it more than on top of it, I
//think we poured brandy over it and set it on fire.// |
| F963 |
//Right. Mmhm.// |
| F965 |
Erm, just for the
//hell of it.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
//mmhm// |
| M964 |
//It really sounds like you're preparing a weapon.//
//Weapon [inaudible]// |
| F965 |
//[laugh] Maybe it originated// |
| F963 |
//[laugh] a small bomb.//
//Yeah. [laugh]// |
| F965 |
//Maybe it started out as that.//
//But of course you'd already put all your swords in the hall, you know? [laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
But it was Mrs Dunn used to make Christmas pudding.
I've got a memory that might be a false memory of having an actual round clootie,
//Christmas pudding.// |
| F963 |
//Mm mmhm//
In a, in an actual
//cloth, it was in a, done like a clootie, yeah.// |
| F965 |
//I've got a memory of that, it may be, see you used to get a dumpling// |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
on your birthday, |
| F963 |
Mm
//[inaudible]// |
| F965 |
//instead of a birthday cake.//
//A// |
| F963 |
//with things in it.// |
| F965 |
Scottish.
//It might be North,// |
| F963 |
//As a [inaudible]// |
| F965 |
I don't know if they do it in the North of England, but you certainly do, did it in Scotland.
//Yes, with charms// |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F965 |
//in it.// |
| F963 |
//Right. Uh-huh// |
| F965 |
And, S- Sarah used to
//make// |
| F963 |
//Uh-huh// |
| F965 |
a dumpling once in a while,
//and she made it in// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
a cloot. |
| F963 |
Right. Uh-huh |
| F965 |
So it was round; it was spherical. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
And you would put, eh wrapped up in wee bits of greaseproof paper,
don't know if they always did that.
//[laugh] One, one, you// |
| F963 |
//[laugh] If you were careful.// |
| F965 |
noticed it before you swallowed it. |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| F965 |
And two, it was more hygienic. |
| F963 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
Wee silver charms, |
| F963 |
Right. Yeah. |
| F965 |
that you put into the pudding before you boiled it. |
| F963 |
I, see, I
//remember somebody doing that// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
when I was a child, and it mi- maybe it was just a sort of one-off
//to to demonstrate.// |
| F965 |
//Mmhm, Sarah would maybe make you a dumpling.// |
| F963 |
Well, did we not have something like that at Halloween once?
//Where there was// |
| F965 |
//With the,//
yes, with the lucky ch- the Halloween
//charm. We'd a Halloween cake.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah, [inaudible].//
Well actually you can buy things like that.
//Or you used to,// |
| F965 |
//With charms in it.//
//The Halloween one I think// |
| F963 |
//used to be able to buy things.// |
| F965 |
m- might, I don't I don't remember that from my childhood. |
| F963 |
Well I remember getting a wee silver charm; it was a wee
//silver boot.// |
| F965 |
//It would be.//
//It would be a Halloween cake out of the Electric Bakery.// |
| F963 |
//You know, like, uh-huh, and//
designed so that you would put it on to like a charm
//bracelet, you know, it was made// |
| F965 |
//Yes, yes.//
//Was it really silver?// |
| F963 |
//that way.//
Er, well yeah, and it, maybe it was Sarah.
//I know how it came by that.// |
| F965 |
//Quite likely hers.//
I don't think you get the silver, real silver one in in
//Electric Bakery, no.// |
| F963 |
//Oh no no no no. Not a s-.//
//[laugh] It wasn't from the shop.// |
| F965 |
//No, she probably did that.//
//She might have done it for your birthday, uh-huh.// |
| F963 |
//It was, it was somebody who'd made it, it was//
I don't remember it like an annual thing that we
//always did.// |
| F965 |
//No,//
no, no, no.
//It was it was out of [inaudible] uh-huh, and they were// |
| F963 |
//But I do remember on one occasion having this sort of charm thing embedded in a cake.// |
| F965 |
lucky you know, if you, very lucky I think if you got the silver one because there'd be a button.
And they had
//symbolism.// |
| F963 |
//Mm.//
Right.
//Mmhm// |
| F965 |
//There was some sort of//
symbol to them, I can't remember.
I can't remember what any of them w-, there was a horseshoe, obviously. |
| F963 |
Right.
//Luck, luck things, yeah.// |
| F965 |
//Lucky, uh-huh.//
I think a button's got something to do with marriage,
//or// |
| F963 |
//Oh// |
| F965 |
non-marriage. |
| F963 |
Mm.
//Was that a good sign to get? [laugh] Oh. [laugh]// |
| F965 |
//sewing on buttons; it might mean you're going to be a-a- an old maid or something.//
I don't know. |
| M964 |
//Why would they include unlucky charms in these things?// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//Because then the lucky ones wouldn't be so lucky if you didn't have the l-//
//unlucky ones in it.// |
| M964 |
//Ah, polarity.//
//[inhale]// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.//
And everybody wanted, see, this was before naughtyism. |
| F963 |
Naughtyism? |
| F965 |
Where everybody has to get good
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
//Right.// |
| F963 |
//Oh [laugh]// |
| F965 |
This is where you had real contrast, [laugh] you know?
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
Hm |
| F963 |
Hm |
| M964 |
But I didn't know about this this dumpling birthday thing. |
| F965 |
That was a Scottish traditional thing.
There wasn't a birthday cake.
This is before my time I'm talking.
//Because I always had a birthday cake.// |
| F963 |
//Mm//
//Right, uh-huh, yeah.// |
| F965 |
//But in,//
you know, I think Ward's family
//had a dumpling// |
| F963 |
//Hm, right.// |
| F965 |
for your birthday. |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
But, you know, it needed a caring family,
//for a start.// |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F965 |
//It needed// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
somebody available to make the dumpling,
//you know, that Mum// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
wasn't at work, or, you know? |
| F963 |
Mmhm yeah. |
| M964 |
//But I mean wh-// |
| F965 |
//Or//
extremely exhausted or whatever. |
| M964 |
Cause to me a dumpling is a is a is a small
//smaller than my fist sized// |
| F965 |
//Oh yeah.//
//Like you have// |
| M964 |
//thing.// |
| F965 |
with your Chinese or your |
| M964 |
Yeah.
//Along that line, or chicken and dumplings is a very typical American dish.// |
| F965 |
//We have dumplings// |
| F963 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
like that too, that you put in the stew. |
| M964 |
//Yeah.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
That are just flour and water and |
| M964 |
Mmhm |
| F965 |
suet. |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
But er, no this was your fruit dumpling.
Like a mild Christmas pudding. |
| F963 |
Mm |
| F965 |
Like a pale mild Christmas pudding. |
| F963 |
A pale shadow of a Christmas
//pudding.// |
| F965 |
//Yeah, like//
a-, but it had to be boiled for ages as well.
And it had suet in it.
And it was like, how could you describe it?
Have you ever had, [laugh], excuse me.
Have you ever had spotted dick? [laugh]
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
//I I have not.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
I have not. |
| F965 |
Well it's a bit like spotted, [laugh], no use telling you then.
//It's like a fruit, a fruit pudding.// |
| M964 |
//[laugh]//
//Oh I have had it actually, I tell a lie, I have had this.// |
| F965 |
//With raisins and currants and things.// |
| F963 |
//Yeah.//
It's a bit lighter though, isn't it?
//Lighter, lighter sort of sponge, kind of.// |
| F965 |
//Much lighter than a Christmas, much lighter than a Christmas pudding.// |
| F963 |
Yeah. |
| M964 |
//[cough]// |
| F965 |
//But quite spicy.// |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
And, eh you know if it's properly made it's not too stodgy. |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F963 |
//Mmhm//
mmhm |
| F965 |
And the the the birthday dumpling was a a thing |
| F963 |
Right.
//Yeah.// |
| F965 |
//to behold.// |
| F963 |
Did you do that for New Year or
//anything?// |
| M964 |
//Mm// |
| F965 |
//Never.// |
| F963 |
Any other time we've?
Cause the, you've, I mean, I sort of grew up with people still taking the lump of coal,
//the whisky and things like that around.// |
| M964 |
//[cough] [sniff]// |
| F965 |
//Yeah.//
//Uh-huh// |
| F963 |
//But,//
I don't know how much that's sort of watered down since, you know,
//your day.// |
| F965 |
//I don't think they do it at all now.// |
| F963 |
Well, I don't know.
But what what do you remember from your own |
| F965 |
I remember that you had, it was
//unlucky// |
| F963 |
//youth?// |
| F965 |
for a woman to be a first foot. |
| F963 |
Right, uh-huh.
//A tall dark, tall dark stranger.// |
| F965 |
//And, the to- top first foot. No,//
//a stranger wasn't necessary.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
But a tall dark man |
| F963 |
Right. |
| F965 |
was tops. |
| F963 |
Was was red hair not supposed
//to be lucky as well?// |
| F965 |
//Red hair's not good ever.//
//[laugh]// |
| M964 |
//[laugh]// |
| F963 |
//[laugh]//
That'll be the Vikings.
//[laugh]// |
| F965 |
//[laugh] There are no circumstances under which red hair is good.//
[laugh]
No, red hair's not good. |
| F963 |
Uh-huh |
| F965 |
Erm, |
| F963 |
So a red-haired woman would be the worst possible
//combination? [laugh] No coal. [laugh]// |
| F965 |
//Oh, with no coal! [laugh]//
//You always had to take some- you always had some- had to have something.// |
| F963 |
//[laugh] It will be a cold winter this year.//
Yeah. |
| F965 |
And a piece of coal. In fact our piece of coal's probably still in that
//erm// |
| F963 |
//Right.// |
| F965 |
log box. |
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